Is Project Brutality hated in Doomworld ?

[kalensar]

This subject always tickles me because PB and BD influence a lot of people to get into modding in the first place. Doom with a bias toward modern mechanics? It's nice. Anything that keeps the Doom train alive is good thing. 

 

Most of annoyance with PB and BD might stem from popularity bias, as noted by an earlier post. Yup , it's hard to compete with blockbusters. But now after 11 years old, it's just ambiguous. They exist, and shouldn't garner bias that once happened. They are fun, and also excellent teaching tools for the new budding modders.

[Dreamskull]

Im a huge fan of Brutal Doom and it does replace the vanilla version of the game as a standard in its own right. You can build bigger and badder levels with it, but apparently no one else wants that so it exists as a novelty to pretty much everyone on Doomworld. Its something I will never understand.

 

Project Brutality is in the same ballpark as Brutal Doom.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Dreamskull

[Stupid Bunny]

The only thing that I hate are the jackasses (small minority of the overall fans that they are, as we can see they still come along from time to time) who will complain that a map totally sucks and is bad and 1 star ARGH because it doesn't play nice with their gameplay mod of choice. I have no problems with the mods themselves; an insane amount of work went into making them, they introduce mechanics that, while I haven't gotten used to them, could make for a great experience all its own, and honestly more people should map for them specifically (especially the fans of these mods! Be the change bla bla etc.). I suppose it's a problem all gameplay mods will run into, not because the Doom community is infested with crusty reactionary old farts that hate new things (this is observably not true of the majority, either), but because in practice they will introduce balancing issues into any map not tailored to their quirks.  

[WorldMachine]

PB is too over the top and tries way too much to be different than BD. Like the zombies talking profanities instead of making gross noises and gurgles. Too many damn weapons to count, etc. I'd give that BD also adds alot of unnecessary shit but not to the degree of PB. It feels way less """Vanilla""" than BD, you know what I mean?

Edited August 16, 2023 by WorldMachine

[xScavengerWolfx]

Personally, I don't really care for it what so ever. I feel like people who like Brutal Doom are the ones  like the Call of Duty / Fortnite community, If it's not call of duty or dorknife i won't play it.

 

Now i have played Brutal Doom and did enjoy it.....but cranking it up to 11 loses it charm being a actual horror fps (Note: yes i know that sounds really dumb calling Doom a horror game but hey, back in 1993/1994 it was) the reason why i dislike brutal doom is it ruins the game for me. I mean yes sure you can pop demons like there blood filled fleshy balloons but the gore and the violence ruins the experience of what doom is. 

 

If you ask me do i think brutal doom is hated? Hate is such a dirty word now a days i think of it more like it's liked by some but disliked by all or as Xaser said it best:

 

" The community at large has moved past the days of "hey plz make this work with brutal", thankfully. It rarely crops up nowadays and people who do it immediately get told they're silly for saying it. :P"

 

But they what do i know, i'm just a mapper that makes maps and watches for anything that might peek my interest

[Edward850]

On 8/12/2023 at 7:44 AM, tumedaskihutaja_37685 said:

To be honest, even the Chocolate doom has a few limits removed, mostly pertaining to map sizes. But that is, thankfully, rarely noticeable. 

Only saved games (original the storage size was limited to the screen buffer size) and demos (you no longer need to predict how big maxdemo needs to be). Nothing about map sizes is different in chocolate.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Edward850

[Astar]

Project Brutality is my mod of choice, maybe even over the Brutal Doom.
Sometimes, you know, you need a little bit more absurdity in your life. More than BD can offer :)

[Chezza]

I quite like Brutal Doom and Project Brutality. Those who are familiar with me are probably well aware of my opinion and see me pop up promoting my wad whenever someone posts "any BD specific wads??"

 

These mods are crammed with new features, content and mechanics, rendering the balancing an absolute mess. Nonetheless the experience is very fun with satisfying gun play.

 

I think the true potential of the mods have yet to be utilised. I've yet to see wads with specific level design and scripts to gradually introduce these new mechanics and content to effectively become a useful component for a balanced campaign. And yes I have played sgt Mark's Brutal Doom megawad and I feel that didn't reach full potential either.

 

I wanted to accomplish this in my wad but it was also my first time mapping, with lots to learn. I would change many things in my approach if I did it again.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Chezza

[Crazy_Deer]

I personally don't really mind it all that much, and I do play it sometimes. The only thing that kinda bothers me a bit is that it can be a bit hard to search for mods in some places that aren't brutal doom forks

[Async Unicorn]

It is a good mod, though because of its nature - it depends on the map, would it be played good or bad.
In Extermination Day it's good, but in some maps it will completely destroy balance and difficulty.

[CasualScrub]

It used to be a lot more common to see people outright shit on the mod and it's forks/offshoots because they had a lot more coverage, often overshadowing other mods, which really pissed people off. Nowadays though, because of how long they've been around, they don't get talked about as much as they used to, so generally people stopped complaining about it much or got over it.

[stonedbaroness]

For me, Brutal Doom is just another mod I can play online in Zandronum, right beside Complex Doom/LCA. Personally, Doom RLA w/ Monster randomizers such as Colorful Hell and LegenDoom Lite are more my thing for single player. Funny though, when I make maps I always like to test them with BD, CD, etc. to see how it would play out in a modded setting. Of course I don't go out of my way to balance around the mods, only strictly around vanilla gameplay. 

[Celestin]

It's not like I hate it, I just dislike how it's sometimes presented (especially outside the community) as "the way classic Doom is meant to be played".

[St. Mildly Annoyed]

Brutal doom and pb are both good mods with a bit of edgy cringe that just got grossly overrated at one point. They're probably one of the best mods in terms of weapon design, but they aren't the most mechanically intense and game changing like god complex and total conversions, nor are they nearly as insane as what recurracy puts out.

Edited August 23, 2023 by St. Mildly Annoyed

[GrayFace]

It's surprising to me that BD/PB get boring for many people. I guess they just get too easy if played without fast monsters, because they increase your damage output so substantially. More dangerous monsters make traps and ambushes more dangerous, but don't affect the rest of clearing out of enemies that much. Fast monsters do fix that.

 

As an ex-BD, now PB 2.03 enthusiast, I play all vanilla-friendly mapsets with it for 3 main reasons:

- Lower time to kill, both for you and your enemies.

- Great feedback for shooting, hitting enemies and getting hit.

- Headshots making aim matter more.

 

Vanilla Doom mechanics formula is "fast movement, slow shooting" and to me it feels like a decision dictated by its input method, as it was made playable with keyboard only.

 

On 8/23/2023 at 4:07 PM, Celestin said:

It's not like I hate it, I just dislike how it's sometimes presented (especially outside the community) as "the way classic Doom is meant to be played".

That's kinda how BD presents itself. "The definitive gameplay enhancement mod for the GZDoom and Zandronum engines" (c) its ModDB page.

Edited September 7, 2023 by GrayFace

[Chezza]

I think BD and PB get boring more to those who love the vanilla style and balancing of Doom the most.

 

Changing the beloved formula is like adding condensed milk to your coffee, some people will like it only once in a while and some people can't have their coffee without it.

[banjiepixel]

3 hours ago, GrayFace said:

It's surprising to me that BD/PB get boring for many people.

 

Main reason why BD/PB get's boring to me is the fact that these mods flatten the gameplay curve from the tight and varied deisgn of the original game. Weapons in BD/PB have much more overlapping abilities and can be used in more sandboxy way instead of there being more clear weapon roles. Headshot system and increased damege output in general also basically guarantee that DPS becomes the king and game becomes mostly about trying to eliminate enemies before they are able to attack you while original game forces you to actually engage with enemies more and use precise gameplay to survive.

 

BD/PB are basically Doom with alot of the original gameplay nuance removed and replaced with power fantasy and other surface level stuff. These mods are simply too much style over substance for many players that want more hardcore style gameplay with proper depth in the classical sense.

Edited September 7, 2023 by banjiepixel

[GrayFace]

On 9/7/2023 at 11:16 AM, banjiepixel said:

 

Weapons in BD/PB have much more overlapping abilities and can be used in more sandboxy way instead of there being more clear weapon roles. Headshot system and increased damege output in general also basically guarantee that DPS becomes the king and game becomes mostly about trying to eliminate enemies before they are able to attack you while original game forces you to actually engage with enemies more and use precise gameplay to survive.

Yes, especially the fact that you start with a rifle (BD) or an auto-sniper (PB) flattens power progression.

Activity of engagements are a mixed bag. On one hand, they have incentives to make you more active, like fatalities with berserker pack restoring some health, advanced melee and movement capabilities, or enemies throwing grenades. PB also turns hitscan attacks into very fast projectiles, which helps you be more active, however the fact other enemy projectiles are more varied in speed in PB makes dodging them less feasible and using cover more desirable.

What do you mean by "sandboxy"?

 

On 9/7/2023 at 11:16 AM, banjiepixel said:

BD/PB are basically Doom with alot of the original gameplay nuance removed and replaced with power fantasy and other surface level stuff. These mods are simply too much style over substance for many players that want more hardcore style gameplay with proper depth in the classical sense.

This is obviously not true. It's not surface level stuff that makes BD/PB good, the depths stays similar, just different.

[banjiepixel]

10 hours ago, GrayFace said:

What do you mean by "sandboxy"?

 

I mean that there is less of a reason to do something specifiic in different situations and you can mostly do just whatever you feel like at that moment. BD/PB have this very loose design that doesn't really punish you from anything.

 

10 hours ago, GrayFace said:

This is obviously not true. It's not surface level stuff that makes BD/PB good, the depths stays similar, just different.

 

Then where the depth of BD/PB is hidden? The added depth in BD/PB in general seems to me be of the Mineraft style of depth that is more about player freedom and not the more classical type of depth that is about the game demanding things from the player. So is this the different kind of depth you're talking about? Also what is actually supposed to make BD/PB good then if not the surface level stuff?

 

I feel like Complex Doom does everything better than Project Brutality except for PB having more dynamic monster spawning system with actual progression. But Complex Doom also has more correctly scaled difficulties instead of BD/PB making default Doom difficulties way too easy and forgiving.

[BerserkerNoir]

I dont think the mod itself is being hated, nor BD.
What I think is despised are the fans of such mods whinning about a certain mapset not working with them and giving negative reviews because of that.
I am an avid player of both and I do enjoy classic gameplay as well, but I would never do such a dumb thing as giving bad reviews because
I choose to plays mapsets unintended for the maps play style.

 

[gibfrag]

Hated I don’t think so, but are there people who don’t care for these sorts of mods? I would think so, as I am one of them. These mods work better with their own levels and whatnot but when they’re used with the base game it really fucks it up for me personally. I don’t care if others play it that way though. 

[GrayFace]

On 9/11/2023 at 9:15 PM, banjiepixel said:

 

I mean that there is less of a reason to do something specifiic in different situations and you can mostly do just whatever you feel like at that moment. BD/PB have this very loose design that doesn't really punish you from anything.

 

It changes things enough to often break author's intentions for engagements in cases where such specific intentions exist. Such highly-specific engagements seem really rare, but I'm sure I also don't notice many of them by playing with PB. Sometimes this has the opposite effect of creating new more difficult puzzle-like situations. E.g. in MAP09 of Plutonia you're supposed to kill a room of enemies by using invincibility, but in PB the way to solve the map is by killing them without it by hiding in a cubby where the secret is, because that sphere is pretty necessary for an engagement towards the end due to PB hell knights jumping down.

These things come with the territory of changing the game so much.

 

On 9/11/2023 at 9:15 PM, banjiepixel said:

 

Then where the depth of BD/PB is hidden? The added depth in BD/PB in general seems to me be of the Mineraft style of depth that is more about player freedom and not the more classical type of depth that is about the game demanding things from the player. So is this the different kind of depth you're talking about? Also what is actually supposed to make BD/PB good then if not the surface level stuff?

They make all smaller engagements better:

On 9/7/2023 at 8:03 AM, GrayFace said:

- Lower time to kill, both for you and your enemies.

- Great feedback for shooting, hitting enemies and getting hit.

- Headshots making aim matter more.

E.g. instead of boringly filling a lone Baron of Hell with bullets, you either dispatch him quickly, or he becomes a real problem by spawning as Belphegor. That's added depth coming from mod mechanics, while some part of the depth coming from author's intention is inevitably lost or transformed.

 

On 9/11/2023 at 9:15 PM, banjiepixel said:

But Complex Doom also has more correctly scaled difficulties instead of BD/PB making default Doom difficulties way too easy and forgiving.

I definitely don't care about what difficulty is selected in the menu by default.

[banjiepixel]

2 hours ago, GrayFace said:

They make all smaller engagements better:

 

Better is something very subjective here. You might find BD/PB "improvements" to be fun but I personally find them to make things too boring and unchallenging. And they basically take away so many things that make Doom actually unique experience, especially these days.

 

On 9/7/2023 at 4:03 AM, GrayFace said:

- Lower time to kill, both for you and your enemies.

 

Concept that can be replicated without alot of other more major changes that BD/PB make to the gameplay. Also lower time to kill means also less time or room for tactics.

 

On 9/7/2023 at 4:03 AM, GrayFace said:

- Great feedback for shooting, hitting enemies and getting hit.

 

In my opinion, most of that is very distracting. I am mostly a classic arcade/retro player so I prefer the "feel" and "experience" of the game to get in the way of pure gameplay and I think that BD/PB do allow these "improvements" to hurt the actual gameplay too much.

 

On 9/7/2023 at 4:03 AM, GrayFace said:

- Headshots making aim matter more.

 

I think that the idea of FPS games needing to be mostly about aiming is extremely boring. As far as I know only two FPS game series seem to have had less importance on aiming, classic Doom games and first two Metroid Prime games on the Gamecube.

 

There are so many other mechanics in play when playing Doom that results in nicely balanced experience where aiming is just a small part of full picture. Original autoaim system in Vanilla gives you more resources to use movement, positioning and precise dodging to survive the encounters. BD/PB makes these things much less important as it is much easier to kill enemies before you would even need to dodge and your focus as a player is so much more on aiming and hunting headshots. You also you cover much more than movement so the gameplay loop becomes mostly about aiming for those headshots and using cover and in my opinion, this dumbs down the gameplay systems alot and makes it pretty boring to me. There is more variety and tactics even in the vanilla Doom.

 

2 hours ago, GrayFace said:

E.g. instead of boringly filling a lone Baron of Hell with bullets, you either dispatch him quickly, or he becomes a real problem by spawning as Belphegor. That's added depth coming from mod mechanics, while some part of the depth coming from author's intention is inevitably lost or transformed.

 

If killing the Baron of Hell isn't worth the ammo or time investment, why even bother? Not killing everything you see can often very good tactical decision in vanillla Doom, but usually isn't very viable thing to do in BD/PB. These mods flatten Doom's mechanics and give you actually less room for making tactical decisions. The "improvements" that BD/PB make are actually pretty superficial and generally just dumb down the gameplay design.

 

Sure, these mods are more modern streamlined playing experiences and some people do enjoy that, nothing wrong with that. But there are also multiple very good reasons why so many people prefer to play vanilla Doom or something much closer to vanilla than BD/PB.

Edited September 12, 2023 by banjiepixel

[Crazy_Deer]

On 9/6/2023 at 7:03 PM, GrayFace said:

That's kinda how BD presents itself. "The definitive gameplay enhancement mod for the GZDoom and Zandronum engines" (c) its ModDB page.

That's kinda full of itself, isn't it lol. It's always bothered me to see some people proclaim it as the only way to play doom nowadays

[Dreamskull]

Its the only way to play Doom nowadays.

 

If you use Brutal Doom as a base standard to design and fine tune your maps, your maps automatically become harder when you return it to vanilla gameplay. Maps designed with the original version are piss easy when you overlay Brutal Doom on top of them. I dont see any of this as a detriment. Here's the real question : Why wouldnt you use Brutal Doom to build tougher fights in maps and then play them vanilla IF you were staunch vanilla gameplay enthusiast? You can still use it to benefit the community by using Brutal Doom to design maps with more complexity and harder enocunters...

 

...FOR vanilla gameplay

Edited September 13, 2023 by Dreamskull

[Dreamskull]

I realize this thread is about the popularity of Project Brutality in Doomworld, but as you know I think they are similar enough to qualify. Brutal Doom is comparable to Project Brutality in my mind, but they are different. For example, You probably couldnt do fine-tuning using Project Brutality. Thats my bad, but you do get my point, dont you?

 

I dont like the randomization element in Project Brutality, but one thing it has over Brutal Doom is its weapon aesthetic, i actually like it, but its consistency is off putting for many different reasons.

 

That revolver though... omfg its so good.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Dreamskull

[insertwackynamehere]

I’ve said this before in one of the many various similar threads, but I like Brutal Doom and think a lot of the criticism (at least 10 years ago) felt kind of salty with post facto “logical” reasoning applied.

 

Specifically, I will call out a couple of themes in this thread:

 

Claim 1) Brutal Doom appeals to modern gamers who like CoD, Fortnight, etc.

Claim 2) Brutal Doom makes the game easier by not being such a tightly controlled and choreographed fight loop (“sandboxy”).
 

I grew up as a kid in the 90s playing Doom (among other video games) with my friends. When I fire up Doom now, I feel nostalgia and I enjoy playing it without mods, but it definitely shows it’s age.

 

Playing Doom as a kid the 90s was not a dour experience. Brutal Doom, in many ways, captures the hard-to-qualify subjective experience of what playing Doom felt like at the time.

 

I think people who are younger playing Doom long after it’s heyday may mistake artifacts of its age for design choices. When you played back in the day, at least as a kid and not a professional, it was thrilling. It wasn’t a choreographed experienced of perfectionism and min-maxing.

 

After decades of popularity, of course people have it down to a science exactly how much ammo per enemy, how to confront each horde, etc. That is a side effect of the decades of experience and research of players as well as the limitations of the time period when it came to game complexity.

 

I think a lot of people here are sticklers for playing Doom like a solved game. This overlaps with the slaughter map arguments. I personally play more because there is a consistent aesthetic I enjoy from the engine and its descendants, and the general gameplay style.

 

I am not a very good player or “gamer” in general, but even so I still sometimes resent knowing matter-of-factly exactly how many times I need to shoot an enemy, because I think games stop being fun the less you have to left to discover and the more it’s about perfecting skill within a known rule set. I think a game is mostly tapped out for me when it’s all about known rules and “getting good”.

 

Brutal Doom making the game more sandboxy helps because it does remove the min-max component which some people like me actually hate, and it also gives the same “vibe” as playing Doom in the 90s. I think younger people don’t realize blowing up nukage barrels felt like Brutal Doom to some 8 year old 25 years ago. You would explore levels that were more interesting than anyone had seen and explore game mechanics that were surprising and exciting, until they all became fully documented and over the decades, mapped around with 0 tolerances.

[Lila Feuer]

I played Brutal Doom when it was still v11 and v12, looked at v15 a little before I stopped so I'm woefully out of date, and found the mechanics it introduced to gameplay to be more interesting than the gore itself. What I saw of Project Brutality though just strikes me as "DOOM: ADHD Edition", it is so comically bombastic and noisy I for the life of me cannot understand how someone can play the game like that, let alone all the time.