Quake II Remastered

[Jayextee]

2 hours ago, Cantleylads said:

I'd take their current 'annoying' incarnation over their original, non-threatening version.

This. The original game's Berzerkers were a joke. Now they're actually a threat.

[Lizardcommando]

My biggest issue with the Berserker's new attack is how much range that shockwave has when it lands on the ground. It feels like that can still land a hit on me even if I am like 3-5 feet away from them.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Lizardcommando

[mhmh]

I don't have an issue with making the Berserkers stronger. I have an issue with the way their new attack makes them do silly things like deliberately jump into water and drown themselves. 

[Devalaous]

The only issue I have with the Berserkers is that you cant do a thing to avoid damage once they have jumped, the AoE goes through walls, hits you if you jump, etc.

[dustarma]

Yeah honestly, I know the common answer is to 'git gud' but I haven't found a way to not get hit by the leap.

[Midnight_00]

Is the Berserker leap even that damaging? I feel like on Hard it's only ever killed me by knocking me into lava.

[Jello]

14 hours ago, Edward850 said:

It wasn't taken out so much as it was Quake2 literally wasn't finished. There was a whole bunch of AI behaviour that failed to make the transition from the original QuakeC to the native C library when that got changed part way through development.

I was probably wrong in my wording, but from what I understand this behavior was intended. But the game ended up getting rushed and things were abandoned so they could get to market for the Christmas season. 

 

That doesn't necessarily mean that the things that got abandoned were good ideas, or that they would function as a useful part of the gameplay. The Berserker being able to completely jump across any arena and throw the player in the air, even if it does minimal damage, interrupts the flow of the game. They immediately become the primary threat because they can throw you in the air and you lose control over the character. This is a behavior that has never been present in Quake 2, nor is it a behavior that I recall seeing in any other FPS. 

 

Knockback is fine, getting knocked off a ledge because something shot you with a rocket or a railgun is fine, pushback from melee attacks is fine, but being catapulted from across the map by one enemy who has never exhibited this behavior before, and was generally used in the original game as a sneak attack enemy, seems like a bad choice. It's a neat addition to the game, but the Berserker needs to have the range of it's leap reduced. Or have the ability to cancel it's attack once it's in the air. Or both. 

 

1 hour ago, Midnight_00 said:

Is the Berserker leap even that damaging? I feel like on Hard it's only ever killed me by knocking me into lava.

It's damage is negligible, and that's not the problem. The problem is that it can completely disrupt the flow of the game, and that problem never existed before. It did have an uppercut that would launch you in the air, but it was rare and you had to let it get right in your face. And that attack has apparently been removed.

[Devalaous]

1 hour ago, Jello said:

It's a neat addition to the game, but the Berserker needs to have the range of it's leap reduced. Or have the ability to cancel it's attack once it's in the air. Or both.

 

I'd settle with being able to jump to dodge the attack, like what you see in pretty much every game ever with a groundpound AoE attack, and being able to duck behind things to shield yourself from the blast

[Lila Feuer]

Reninds me of the unavoidable stomp attack from the Beast in Blood, which I'd argue was broken also.

[Kinsie]

It sounds like there'll be some tweaks to the Berserker jump attack in the patch.

[Jello]

I realize this is kind of a weird post, but did anyone else feel like this room from Quake, the Pain Maze, E4M6 matches up with this room in Quake 2? Maybe it was an homage, but the first time I walked into that room in Quake 2, it felt like it was a throwback to Sandy's levels from episode four.

 

 

 

I might be wrong, but I've thought that they were really similar since 1998, and I'm interested in finding out if it's just me.

[mhmh]

5 hours ago, Jello said:

I was probably wrong in my wording, but from what I understand this behavior was intended. But the game ended up getting rushed and things were abandoned so they could get to market for the Christmas season. 

 

That doesn't necessarily mean that the things that got abandoned were good ideas, or that they would function as a useful part of the gameplay. The Berserker being able to completely jump across any arena and throw the player in the air, even if it does minimal damage, interrupts the flow of the game. They immediately become the primary threat because they can throw you in the air and you lose control over the character. This is a behavior that has never been present in Quake 2, nor is it a behavior that I recall seeing in any other FPS. 

 

Knockback is fine, getting knocked off a ledge because something shot you with a rocket or a railgun is fine, pushback from melee attacks is fine, but being catapulted from across the map by one enemy who has never exhibited this behavior before, and was generally used in the original game as a sneak attack enemy, seems like a bad choice. It's a neat addition to the game, but the Berserker needs to have the range of it's leap reduced. Or have the ability to cancel it's attack once it's in the air. Or both. 

 

It's damage is negligible, and that's not the problem. The problem is that it can completely disrupt the flow of the game, and that problem never existed before. It did have an uppercut that would launch you in the air, but it was rare and you had to let it get right in your face. And that attack has apparently been removed.

 

I'd add to this that, if it were the case that the jump attack was taken out halfway through the design, then all of the subsequent design, layout and monster placement would have been built around Berserkers not having a jump attack. Reinstating the jump attack is also potentially disruptive to all of that subsequent design, layout and monster placement. 

 

To me, the jump attack feels more like something that was added though. The other AI behaviours feel more like they were reinstated, but the jump attack is just so immediately incongruous and overstated, I just find it difficult to accept as originally intended behaviour. Best case is I couid accept it as something that id intentionally removed because they thought it didn't work, not because of time, resource or tech constraints. 

[TheUltimateDoomer666]

On 8/21/2023 at 7:58 AM, Dark Pulse said:

PSX Quake II had you fight the Makron to "Pressure Point" which is IMO a hell of a lot more fitting, but of course, that was absent from original Quake II, since that was added in Ground Zero.

Pressure Point only plays for the first section of the Inner Chambers stage. The Final Showdown stage and actual Makron fight have different initial track assignments. On another note, I find the track assignment in PS1 Quake II to be rather strange, especially since different copies or releases of the game bizarrely have different initial tracks assigned to the levels.

Compare part 2 of Inner Chamber in these two videos for example:
 

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by TheUltimateDoomer666

[mhmh]

Just for balance, a positive change is giving the Super Tank grenades rather than a rocket launcher, making it's attacks less predictable and more difficult to dodge. 

[TasAcri]

4 hours ago, Kinsie said:

It sounds like there'll be some tweaks to the Berserker jump attack in the patch.

 

Where do you get that info?

[Kinsie]

33 minutes ago, TasAcri said:

 

Where do you get that info?

There are a couple of developers on the Quake Mapping Discord and they occasionally talk about things.

[Knor964]

16 hours ago, mhmh said:

I don't have an issue with making the Berserkers stronger. I have an issue with the way their new attack makes them do silly things like deliberately jump into water and drown themselves. 

I had one who jumped in the lava I was down and out for a few minutes laughing hahahahaha

[Jayextee]

6 hours ago, Kinsie said:

It sounds like there'll be some tweaks to the Berserker jump attack in the patch.

Just because people are asking for whining about it? For this reason, and a healthy dose of my own spite, I hope they never change it.

[Lila Feuer]

Broken AoE attacks aren't acceptable in any game. Adjusting the radius of it is a fair assessment. Taking a page from the Fiend here regarding range might be a good idea also. And if anything I think the damage needs to be increased because as it is now it's barely threatening.

[Jayextee]

Oh for real the one thing I'd tweak is the AoE; at the very least have it jumpable, it seems to be the first thing a lot of people tried.

 

But that jump range, oh boy, they should keep that. "Half the map" my ass, this jumpyboi knows where he wants to be and it's IN. YOUR. FACE. It's great. Even when, no, especially when it's to his own detriment. A lesson learned about getting overexcited there, jumpyboi.

[Midnight_00]

13 hours ago, Jello said:

It's damage is negligible, and that's not the problem. The problem is that it can completely disrupt the flow of the game, and that problem never existed before. It did have an uppercut that would launch you in the air, but it was rare and you had to let it get right in your face. And that attack has apparently been removed.

I guess that's a fair point. I think you could say that they've gone from mostly trivial to being a major annoyance that can critically distract you if you're unlucky. I was curious what people thought because it sounds like they are regarded in some posts as being a big threat now, when I still don't think they're any harder most of the time. 

 

Now that I think about it, the leap gives a strong incentive to camp outside the room and wait for the berserkers to come to you if they're in an open area, which is a pretty big change in the flow of the game from the original. Maybe that's already been mentioned though.

[mhmh]

The Berserker jump seems like a nod to the Fiend, now that I see it mentioned. I must compare the code sometime. I'm now wondering if the extreme jump range is not actually a bug, perhaps caused by the change to a 40hz ticrate, or in other words if the range is 4x what it's intended to be? That would make sense if so. 

[Azuris]

9 hours ago, Knor964 said:

I had one who jumped in the lava I was down and out for a few minutes laughing hahahahaha

 

I have to be honest, i like when such Things happen.
People can do Failures, why shouldn't a NPC :)

More so if they can be annoying, it is a nice Pleasure to see them fail ;D
And remember, a Berserker is fighting without giving real Attention of what could go wrong, so a Berserker jumping to its Death because it was blind of Anger in its Attack is pretty fitting.

[Caffeine Freak]

55 minutes ago, Azuris said:

 

I have to be honest, i like when such Things happen.
People can do Failures, why shouldn't a NPC :)

More so if they can be annoying, it is a nice Pleasure to see them fail ;D

 

Yep. Reminds me of playing Hexen II, where the Were Jaguars and Were Panthers would jump similarly to the Berserkers, and I'd purposefully stand at the edge of a lava pit to try and trick them into jumping in when they landed in front of me.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Caffeine Freak

[hfc2x]

22 hours ago, Jello said:

I realize this is kind of a weird post, but did anyone else feel like this room from Quake, the Pain Maze, E4M6 matches up with this room in Quake 2? Maybe it was an homage, but the first time I walked into that room in Quake 2, it felt like it was a throwback to Sandy's levels from episode four.

I didn't see it before, and I still don't see it.

 

16 hours ago, Lila Feuer said:

Broken AoE attacks aren't acceptable in any game. Adjusting the radius of it is a fair assessment. Taking a page from the Fiend here regarding range might be a good idea also. And if anything I think the damage needs to be increased because as it is now it's barely threatening.

Berzerker jump with less splash radius but more damage? This actually sounds pretty good IMO.

[Dark Pulse]

On 8/30/2023 at 4:23 AM, TheUltimateDoomer666 said:

Pressure Point only plays for the first section of the Inner Chambers stage. The Final Showdown stage and actual Makron fight have different initial track assignments. On another note, I find the track assignment in PS1 Quake II to be rather strange, especially since different copies or releases of the game bizarrely have different initial tracks assigned to the levels.

Compare part 2 of Inner Chamber in these two videos for example:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Yeah, I definitely misremembered a bit. I do still think that Pressure Point is a better "you're at the end" than the original Showdown all the same :P

[scalliano]

So after finishing Call of the Medics Mutants Machine a couple of times, I have some thoughts:

 

Spoiler

- I'm not sure if I am a fan of unifying the Q1 and Q2 timelines, especially in the way that MG have attempted it here. Mainly because it breaks the lore in other ways (namely the Mutants which are supposed to be indigenous wildlife). I like the idea of the Strogg uncovering a shrine to Shub-Niggurath, but the idea that the Strogg are creations of the Old Ones just doesn't really fit for me. Why would the Eldritch bother with cybernetics?

- Recycling the Shambler as the final boss feels kind of lazy - if a modder did the same thing they'd get roasted for it.

- They ported over the Arachnid from PSX Q2, yet the Makron gets recycled again when the PSX Guardian was right there.

- Scaling monsters just feels amateurish for an official release. I laughed my arse off at the giant Berserker and it only got more ridiculous from there.

- The Gunner Commander is a great enemy and was hopelessly underutilised. Hopefully we'll see more of him in custom maps.

- Speaking of enemies, where the hell are the Iron Maidens? For an expansion that seems to be a massive crossover of all of Q2's content they are conspicuous in their absence. Same goes for the Black Widow, if the Makron gets another rehash then nothing should be off the table. Maybe MG have an issue with women, idk...

- The Casali Effect can go and fuck itself with barbed wire. This was the first section where the Mutant spam got completely out of control.

- After the fantastic rebalancing of the Turrets in GZ, now we have another flow-breaker - having to go around and gib every single goddamn corpse because there WILL be a Medic Commander appearing when you revisit the area. This got tedious, fast.

- Firewall was by far the highlight and the unit I enjoyed replaying the most out of the whole campaign. Classic Q2 architecture coupled with the engine's expanded limits and the appearance of the Arachnid all combined to make it feel like the most authentic Q2 experience of all the units. If only the whole expansion was this good.

- The final fight wasn't fun. A cramped, square arena with two giant Shamblers and a constant stream of Mutants just screams, "we didn't test this". Couple that clusterfuck with the "Conglaturation"-level ending text and the whole thing left me feeling cold.

 

I'm aware that this list might ruffle some jimmies, but stacking CotM up against DotM and it isn't even close. DotM felt like Q1 with the brakes cut, much like Arcane Dimensions for example. But IMO CotM has moments where it almost feels like MG forgot what game they were mapping for. Either that or they just went, "fuck it" and did their own thing. I wouldn't call it bad per se, but the moments when it was really fun and engaging were offset by some design decisions that were jarring/goofy at best and outright unbalanced at worst.

 

Not my favourite Q2 campaign, that's for sure. Especially since I have a newly-found appreciation for GZ now that the Turrets have been fixed.

[Dynamo]

On 9/1/2023 at 4:13 AM, scalliano said:

 

  Hide contents

Why would the Eldritch bother with cybernetics?

 

Why not? It's the same reason why the demons in Doom use cybernetics.

On 9/1/2023 at 4:13 AM, scalliano said:

But IMO CotM has moments where it almost feels like MG forgot what game they were mapping for.

It sounds like you essentially wanted them to stick very close to vanilla Q2 thematically, but personally - and I think the majority would agree with me here - I feel like thematic variety is what has given these games so much mileage over the years, regardless of whether it's official content or not. To each their own, though.

[Rudolph]

It is also a neat way to bridge Quake and Quake II thematically, which is something I wanted to see.

[Dweller Dark]

I think Quake and Quake 2 having a shared universe isn't too far-fetched. My own headcanon is the Strogg we see in Quake 1 are ancient Strogg who had no free will until the Ranger comes along and kills Shub. With Shub gone, the Strogg could begin to figure out the human/alien tech that Shub had strategically acquired, which would eventually lead to the Strogg we see in Quake 2. As for motives, the Strogg probably lost a lot of their civilization under Shub's command and built up their tech and armies in the time since in order to avenge their dead.