Was Doom mapping ever on a decline? If so, what saved it?

[Knor964]

I don't think so to be honest but I don't know what happened in the community in all those years 

[ReaperAA]

4 hours ago, Herr Dethnout said:

Now Quake mapping is way less active than Doom's

Hell, even Arcane Dimensions wasn't able to save it :/

 

Untrue. Quake, while not as active as Doom, still has a decently strong community. Especially compared to almost every other 90's fps that isn't Doom.

 

There have been a number of great projects since Arcane Dimensions. Alkaline, Dwell, Coppertone Summer jams etc etc.

[zokum]

I think we can all agree that there was a decline when Quake was released. Other than that, it seems people have extremely subjective views without any objective ways to measure it. Even something like maps madeper year is problematic, since some of them were probably started years ahead. Alien Vendetta is mentioned, but it was a labor of love that started in the 90s. Depending on whataspect of the community you care about, there were different declines. Some possible metrics that are objective could be:

• Source port releases.
• Source port commits.
• Tool releases/commits.
• Map releases.
• New ideas and inventions.
• Projects started.
• Average amount of online players
• Doomwiki edits.
• Sales, boxed, gog, etc.
• Speedrun recordings.
• Cacoward related metrics.
• Mentioned on blogs/web sites etc.
• Real-time chat. IRC, Discord, Mumble, Teamspeak etc.

So, any decline is depending a bit on whether one makes or consumes Doom content. Personally I think that wiki edits is an interesting and fairly objective metric since it will encompass so many of the aspects. When it comes to map releases, so many projects are not public, making it tough to give good numbers.

Edited August 17, 2023 by zokum

[Capellan]

7 hours ago, Cutman 999 said:

Man, always i read the wiki of requiem, i laugh my ass of. Only the fucking casali map was given proper playtesting LMAO.

 

This is simply not accurate.

 

It would however to accurate to say that the compiled WAD was wholly unplaytested.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Capellan

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

5 hours ago, Herr Dethnout said:

Now Quake mapping is way less active than Doom's

Hell, even Arcane Dimensions wasn't able to save it :/

The quake community is actually doing pretty well. It's mostly on discord but all the maps and community projects (or "jams" as they call them) are also on the slipseer website. Along tutorials, texture packs, and mods. 

But quake mapping is much more involved process. You can make beautiful things but it takes a lot of effort too. I have made a couple maps for jams and got burned out very quickly. And the jams just keep happening. One is over and another starts. They're working at pretty break neck pace, actually. 

 

What makes doom special is ease of use. Trenchbroom and UDB are both amazing editors. But what i can make in doom in an hour is gonna take me at least five hours in quake. And even if i go with portals and 3d floors to make a quake-like map in doom, it's still likely gonna be faster. Granted, I'm not as familiar with Trenchbroom as Eureka (my doom editor of choice) so ymmw. This is my experience. 

The ease of use is really a strong point for doom. You have just enough limitations to be creative, and just enough freedom to express your ideas. It's fast and easy. Like Jimmy said, anybody can make a doom map. 

[Apprentice]

No, I don't think Doom mapping has ever been on a decline, maybe slower at times. Compared to other and later games (Elite Force 1 and 2 comes to mind for which NO new map has been released for a very, very long time), the Doom mapping community has always been quite active with the amount of maps, mods and source ports released . . .

[Cutman 999]

9 hours ago, Capellan said:

 

This is simply not accurate.

 

It would however to accurate to say that the compiled WAD was wholly unplaytested.

Yeah? So there's at least some record of the maps being playtested then? This is what you mean? 

[aloysiusfreeman]

I've been thinking about this in regards to the latest boom of interest in the Doom community, and wondering if Doom will truly be eternal

[Capellan]

4 hours ago, Cutman 999 said:

Yeah? So there's at least some record of the maps being playtested then? This is what you mean? 

 

Not that I can still access. It was 25 years ago and all done on email.

 

By modern standards, i don't think any of the maps were "properly playtested". Chris posted a map to the mailing list and people played it or they didn't. Casali's was no different to any other map, in that regard.

 

It was pretty much the only map to provoke much conversation - mostly around "why is there an IoS in it". (Edit: also there were objections to the inclusion of SS soldiers) But it didn't get any special playtesting attention.

 

Other maps did get some feedback, particularly earlier in the project, but there was no debate around them.

 

As far as playtesting I personally was involved in, I definitely played both Orin's map and Bill's map when they were first shared, and Bill played all of mine.

 

The final release was never holistically playtested though, and it shows. 

 

I also wouldn't be surprised if in at least a couple of cases Chris may have used the wrong versions of maps. We weren't exactly using stringent version control!

Edited August 17, 2023 by Capellan

[Jakub Majewski]

 

Here's a graph showing how many files were submitted to idgames per year. I stole it from another thread, forgot which one, but it talked about the size of the archive. There are some patterns to be observed here.

 

Indeed, After Quake came out, the numbers dwindled, but in 2003 they started growing again, likely because of the annoucement of Doom 3. Then it shrunk again and kept the same pace until 2014, when I believe Doom 2016 was announced. Then, it's about the same pace as before, but it appears that as the 2020s began, there's been a growth spurt. I suppose Doom Eternal has made Zoomers become interested in the game.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Jakub Majewski

[Cutman 999]

50 minutes ago, Capellan said:

 

Not that I can still access. It was 25 years ago and all done on email.

 

By modern standards, i don't think any of the maps were "properly playtested". Chris posted a map to the mailing list and people played it or they didn't. Casali's was no different to any other map, in that regard.

 

It was pretty much the only map to provoke much conversation - mostly around "why is there an IoS in it". (Edit: also there were objections to the inclusion of SS soldiers) But it didn't get any special playtesting attention.

 

Other maps did get some feedback, particularly earlier in the project, but there was no debate around them.

 

As far as playtesting I personally was involved in, I definitely played both Orin's map and Bill's map when they were first shared, and Bill played all of mine.

 

The final release was never holistically playtested though, and it shows. 

 

I also wouldn't be surprised if in at least a couple of cases Chris may have used the wrong versions of maps. We weren't exactly using stringent version control!

So basically the playtesting consisted of a general list of submissions, and the people involved in the project just played the levels if they wanted or not? Thanks for the information anyways. 

[Individualised]

20 hours ago, Gibbitudinous said:

I really wish Blood could get more love but I imagine that the split between the multiple "proper" (read: reverse-engineered) source ports and Nightdive's weird Kex engine remake making things more difficult for modders hasn't helped things at all.

Is it actually a remake? KEX Engine isn't a game engine and Nightdive usually do remasters for re-releases of old games rather than remaking them from the ground up.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Individualised

[EPICALLL]

1 hour ago, Jakub Majewski said:

 

Here's a graph showing how many files were submitted to idgames per year. I stole it from another thread, forgot which one, but it talked about the size of the archive. There are some patterns to be observed here.

 

Indeed, After Quake came out, the numbers dwindled, but in 2003 they started growing again, likely because of the annoucement of Doom 3. Then it shrunk again and kept the same pace until 2014, when I believe Doom 2016 was announced. Then, it's about the same pace as before, but it appears that as the 2020s began, there's been a growth spurt. I suppose Doom Eternal has made Zoomers become interested in the game.

So, statistically, the highest peak was in '95, and the point where everything was at it's most "dead" was in 2019..? Odd.

[Herr Dethnout]

5 minutes ago, Individualised said:

Is it actually a remake? KEX Engine isn't a game engine and Nightdive usually do remasters for re-releases of old games rather than remaking them from the ground up.

Is like Doom 64, reversed engineered (This was controversial because people expect they will use actual source code since it was a official release)

[SleepyVelvet]

That chart's interesting.  I think the Twitch/streaming boom in the early 2010's brought in a couple dozen of us, for what it's worth.

[RileyXY1]

1 hour ago, Jakub Majewski said:

 

Here's a graph showing how many files were submitted to idgames per year. I stole it from another thread, forgot which one, but it talked about the size of the archive. There are some patterns to be observed here.

 

Indeed, After Quake came out, the numbers dwindled, but in 2003 they started growing again, likely because of the annoucement of Doom 3. Then it shrunk again and kept the same pace until 2014, when I believe Doom 2016 was announced. Then, it's about the same pace as before, but it appears that as the 2020s began, there's been a growth spurt. I suppose Doom Eternal has made Zoomers become interested in the game.

And that's pretty much correct. Doom Eternal is bringing more people into the game, and with MyHouse.wad becoming a huge sensation I think that will attract more gamers to the Doom mapping scene.

[Capellan]

1 hour ago, Cutman 999 said:

So basically the playtesting consisted of a general list of submissions, and the people involved in the project just played the levels if they wanted or not?

 

Pretty much.  It was all pretty loose, particularly in the final "Chris is just gonna release whatever he has" stage of things.

[St. Mildly Annoyed]

19 hours ago, Gibbitudinous said:

It's honestly hilarious how My House has exploded to the point that the phrase "myhouse.wad" has almost become the "among us" of Doom, especially considering how the pre-existing ubiquity of the phrase was the very reason that specific wad was called that in the first place.

 

https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxBDIuMKCC9pZcaWyqzsijTI5oQ-1Oi_wH

I feel like brutal doom has already passed myhouse.wad for being the among us of doom by extreme popularity relative to the genre/game.

[St. Mildly Annoyed]

3 hours ago, aloysiusfreeman said:

I've been thinking about this in regards to the latest boom of interest in the Doom community, and wondering if Doom will truly be eternal

Well the first game is still popular after it was released a quarter of a century ago, it's gotten several releases that are considered to be some of top tier modern fps games, it's most recent sequel had been nominated for 5 different rewards, including game of the year in 2020, and there's even mod combos to make it infinitely replayable. I wouldn't be surprised to still see it have an active player base in the 10s of millions in 2100.

[Gibbitudinous]

2 hours ago, Individualised said:

Is it actually a remake? KEX Engine isn't a game engine and Nightdive usually do remasters for re-releases of old games rather than remaking them from the ground up.

 

If the KEX Engine isn't a game engine then what kind of engine is it? In any case, Blood: Fresh Supply much like other games "remastered" in KEX, is seemingly based on wholly new code under the hood rather than being reverse-engineered from Duke 3D's code like the fan-made source ports since AFAIK it's completely incompatible with most Blood mods that weren't made specifically for it (aside from Death wish), so as far as I'm concerned, it's a remake.

 

1 hour ago, St. Mildly Annoyed said:

I feel like brutal doom has already passed myhouse.wad for being the among us of doom by extreme popularity relative to the genre/game.

 

Not talking about popularity, but the memetic nature of taking a simple phrase and loading it with a bizarre amount of potential for referential humor.

[Individualised]

22 minutes ago, Gibbitudinous said:

 

If the KEX Engine isn't a game engine then what kind of engine is it? In any case, Blood: Fresh Supply much like other games "remastered" in KEX, is seemingly based on wholly new code under the hood rather than being reverse-engineered from Duke 3D's code like the fan-made source ports since AFAIK it's completely incompatible with most Blood mods that weren't made specifically for it (aside from Death wish), so as far as I'm concerned, it's a remake.

It's a wrapper/framework for input, output, multiplayer etc, and no? Nightdive remasters are remasters, they are based on either original source code or reverse engineered code. So I'm not sure where you got that from? I think people would have not been happy had Doom 64 or the Quake remasters not actually be remasters. Lack of mod support does not mean it's not based on reverse engineered code. I haven't seen it but if Blood is remade from the ground up I'd be very surprised. I'm sure one of the Nightdive members who browse this forum can clarify.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Individualised

[Gibbitudinous]

The only thing I'll say at this point that I loathe the overuse of "remaster" to mean literally anything relating to rereleasing a game in some enhanced fashion, since the only reason that confusing nonsense is a thing is because slapping "HD" on the end of a game's title was no longer applicable once games started being ported to newer systems from PS3 and 360, which were already capable of rendering in 720p.

[Murdoch]

4 hours ago, Jakub Majewski said:

 

 

Here's a graph showing how many files were submitted to idgames per year. I stole it from another thread, forgot which one, but it talked about the size of the archive. There are some patterns to be observed here.

 

Indeed, After Quake came out, the numbers dwindled, but in 2003 they started growing again, likely because of the annoucement of Doom 3. Then it shrunk again and kept the same pace until 2014, when I believe Doom 2016 was announced. Then, it's about the same pace as before, but it appears that as the 2020s began, there's been a growth spurt. I suppose Doom Eternal has made Zoomers become interested in the game.

 

Interesting graphic. It is perhaps worth noting though that while the numbers may be less these days, I think the overall quality is a lot better.

[G19Doom]

All gaming communities tend to have this sort of thing where activity spikes and dips on and off.

[Noiser]

First and foremost, I think what really made Doom survive all those years was the solid and simple gameplay. Doom is a really well designed game, especially considering the updated stuff from the sequel. Through Quake to Doom 3, we saw shooters changing or adapting their engines and for that reason it was easy to see Doom as obsolete (because that's how we see products/technology), however, games are also a form of art - and when things are great, they keep that way forever.

The second reason, of course - is the source code and how modders can adapt the game experience through their POVs. Doom is so simple and straightforward that people can interpret and recreate it on their own terms - a survival horror experience? Sure. Action run and gun? Yep. Secrets, puzzles? It's here. Realism or abstraction? Yes. It's all under the "Doom" umbrella and that made it a lot versatile for players, modders and designers alike.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Noiser

[OniriA]

Steven Seagal saved it.

[Kinsie]

4 hours ago, Individualised said:

It's a wrapper/framework for input, output, multiplayer etc, and no? Nightdive remasters are remasters, they are based on either original source code or reverse engineered code. So I'm not sure where you got that from? I think people would have not been happy had Doom 64 or the Quake remasters not actually be remasters. Lack of mod support does not mean it's not based on reverse engineered code. I haven't seen it but if Blood is remade from the ground up I'd be very surprised. I'm sure one of the Nightdive members who browse this forum can clarify.

Yeah, you've got it right. KEX is basically a poorly-labelled framework of individual components that are proven to play nice with consoles and modern hardware. For example, Quake 2 Remastered uses (the Xbox 360 version of) the Quake 2 engine, with input and other bits swapped out for their KEX equivalents.

 

Blood was reverse-engineered, but my understanding is that there was a lot of rewriting of its infamously janky collision code, which ultimately caused more problems than it solved.

[deathz0r]

15 hours ago, Jakub Majewski said:

but in 2003 they started growing again, likely because of the annoucement of Doom 3

Doom 3 was not that impactful on the classic Doom community - that was a period of a significant number of uploads of 1994/95 WADs that were previously not on /idgames, with Funduke being the main contributor to recovering WADs from shovelware CDs.

[m8f]

From Doomworld Community Top WADs of all time:

Years by points:

Years popularity by "popular" (voted) WADs count:

There was some decline about 1998-2007, but since then it's pretty stable. Note that more recent years' WADs lag behind in being represented because people had less time appreciating them.

Edited August 18, 2023 by m8f

[St. Mildly Annoyed]

20 hours ago, Gibbitudinous said:

 

If the KEX Engine isn't a game engine then what kind of engine is it? In any case, Blood: Fresh Supply much like other games "remastered" in KEX, is seemingly based on wholly new code under the hood rather than being reverse-engineered from Duke 3D's code like the fan-made source ports since AFAIK it's completely incompatible with most Blood mods that weren't made specifically for it (aside from Death wish), so as far as I'm concerned, it's a remake.

 

 

Not talking about popularity, but the memetic nature of taking a simple phrase and loading it with a bizarre amount of potential for referential humor.

that I can agree with, but brutal doom has been memed on as well, but that's more out of hate.