Lost Civilization 2, The Desolation

[Jaska]

6 hours ago, Fraston said:

Gl_portals is set to 1. Turning it off and on makes floor and ceiling portals stop and then work again, but doesn't change the real issue of the line portals.

Models are fine and sector portals are fine, but line portals appear to just be broken for me.

 

I have no idea what could cause that :-/

[Jaska]

Version 1.0 is out! Not much has changed, a little fixes here and there.

[Blacklight]

I must admit that when I played Version 0.5, I encountered problems that you fixed in 1.0. If everything is clear with MAP02 (There were definitely problems with FPS), then with MAP05 I had no problems with ammunition. MAP04 was more complicated in my opinion.

 

And if we talk about the Sequel itself, then I'm quite happy with it. Yes, the project is not as big as the First Part, but I can understand you: Making Large and High-Quality Levels is a very long and stuffy occupation. It's better to be smaller, but cooler.

 

I will say only one thing: he should definitely get into "Special Features"!

 

I also expressed my opinion in Russian on Both Parts: The First Part and the Second Part.

[akinata]

this looks so cool!
sad it is not zandronum compatible tho... the first lost civilization was a blast in coop :x

[Catpho]

Finally finished all of it. Some disjointed thoughts in spoiler:
 

Spoiler

1) One of the reasons Lost Civ 1 was really popular with folks here on Doomworld was not only due to your striking eye for visuals, but how you seamlessly blended it with dynamic combat that takes advantage of the sandbox layouts, resulting in some fast and fun but no attention-intensive like the harder Alm-style works or challenge wads. Lost Civ 2, in contrast, is pretty much all vibes for most of its run, relying more on narrative and atmospheric chops. As a caveat, MAP05 doesn't exactly play like a classic Lost Civ 1 level either for most of its run, playing something more like a stealth game where you avoid powerful enemies and picking fights only when necessary.
 

2) The general flavor of the combat segments of Lost Civ 2 is different as well, with a host of new weapons & monsters thrown in not in an attempt to create an ambitious new combat paradigm, but more like because those guns are cool and overpowered, and it's even cooler when you fire these spectacular new guns against those spectacular new demons. Something like those Torm-era ZDoom mapsets, and I mean this affectionately: your take on combat doesn’t insist upon itself so there’s little chance for it to devolve into mandatory room clearing. Speaking of spectacle, those guard bots in sequences with breakable walls are probably the coolest thing to come out of this more vibes focused combat you are having here. As a trade off, many fighting encounters, something like the sewer fight in MAP03 or all fights in MAP01, feel more shallow as a result, and the climatic moment when all hell breaks loose in MAP05 post Blue Key isn't quite up to any of the chaos of the first Lost Civ as the significantly more segmented floor plan reduces opportunities for big hellspawn parties. Overall, it’s as sophisticated as its predecessor as fighting game, but I think it would be kinda missing the point to dwell on it too much, and "not as sophisticated" does not mean "not fun", just of a simpler sort that is unlikely going to be what will be cited as a favorite element of the sequel.
 

3) As I said, vibes heavy mapset. An offbeat thing about this project is how unclear the story develops, the plot points whisking the player arbitrarily into the next scene like an unfolding dream. And what a dream, snapping itself into a variety of moods rendered with your signature sense of wonder. There's the depressing prologue with Kalfkaesque nightmare imagery and scenarios. This is followed by Lost Civ idyll, a peaceful fetch quest intruded by gloom as for some reason you are gearing up in the middle of a vacation. This somehow segues into a mystery thriller that is immediately put on pause for another piece of Lost Civ whimsy in the third map. The point is there's such a weird progression of attitudes and emphasis in here, which sort of underscores the mood piece nature of the project
 

4) On a per scene basis, it's as wonderful as anything you've ever done. 02 and 04 can easily beat their equivalents in the first Lost Civ in terms of sheer visual awe, and they have the benefit of using advanced features that allow for a level of interactivity and detail not possible in Boom format. There's also some new things, like the surreal poetry that opens the mapset, or the ghost town of MAP04, one of your most haunting locations yet. 
 

5) The collectables seem to follow a similar philosophy as the expanded bestiary and arsenal: flavor is key. I was wondering why I was collecting so much money, food, and other miscellaneous items considering that they don't actually provide any gameplay benefits, but then the world started feeling more vibrant when there's so many props lying around. I read your OP after finishing the project, and it seems our thoughts mostly align.
 

6) If there is something I felt was lacking, is that all of this doesn’t *go* anywhere when it is all said and done. The mapset is a series of extraordinary moments, but there’s not a whole lot to tie the whole thing together: the story just sorta ends, the mapset pulls all over the place in gameplay concepts . So this is where I agree with MoiraHeart on this point, but to me the project does make sense like pages of an imaginative diary, with the same feeling as those doodles except it’s stuffed together and executed by a master mapper. There’s a charm in a kind of expression that feels spontaneous and eclectic as this one, and it helps that each individual beat is good at something one way or another.

7) So in the end, it's not quite as tight and focused as the first project, but it also goes in directions that are very interesting, probably the weirdest sequel project ever developed in the Doom community. Furthermore, after it was all said and done I was still moved by the many individual beats in here. The messier combat did not bother me all that much, and I was intrigued and pulled in by all the locations and scenarios in this episode. It's a work that's just as alive as your previous one, even if it plays very little like it. When I put it down, all sorts of wonderful memories will follow me, from observing crane silhouettes as they suspend in dusk in map04, to observing storefronts in map03, to avoiding death bots in the lab segment as walls fall apart, to watching dried leaves fly away from concrete in map01. There are flaws to point out, and I've listed some of them above, but I'm not sure how necessary it is for me to continue to do so when it's born from a work so vital and spectacular.

I played the 0.5 version, so I'm probably missing a lot of the fixes.
 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Catpho

[Jaska]

On 10/28/2023 at 11:06 AM, Catpho said:

Finally finished all of it. Some disjointed thoughts in spoiler:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

1) One of the reasons Lost Civ 1 was really popular with folks here on Doomworld was not only due to your striking eye for visuals, but how you seamlessly blended it with dynamic combat that takes advantage of the sandbox layouts, resulting in some fast and fun but no attention-intensive like the harder Alm-style works or challenge wads. Lost Civ 2, in contrast, is pretty much all vibes for most of its run, relying more on narrative and atmospheric chops. As a caveat, MAP05 doesn't exactly play like a classic Lost Civ 1 level either for most of its run, playing something more like a stealth game where you avoid powerful enemies and picking fights only when necessary.
 

2) The general flavor of the combat segments of Lost Civ 2 is different as well, with a host of new weapons & monsters thrown in not in an attempt to create an ambitious new combat paradigm, but more like because those guns are cool and overpowered, and it's even cooler when you fire these spectacular new guns against those spectacular new demons. Something like those Torm-era ZDoom mapsets, and I mean this affectionately: your take on combat doesn’t insist upon itself so there’s little chance for it to devolve into mandatory room clearing. Speaking of spectacle, those guard bots in sequences with breakable walls are probably the coolest thing to come out of this more vibes focused combat you are having here. As a trade off, many fighting encounters, something like the sewer fight in MAP03 or all fights in MAP01, feel more shallow as a result, and the climatic moment when all hell breaks loose in MAP05 post Blue Key isn't quite up to any of the chaos of the first Lost Civ as the significantly more segmented floor plan reduces opportunities for big hellspawn parties. Overall, it’s as sophisticated as its predecessor as fighting game, but I think it would be kinda missing the point to dwell on it too much, and "not as sophisticated" does not mean "not fun", just of a simpler sort that is unlikely going to be what will be cited as a favorite element of the sequel.
 

3) As I said, vibes heavy mapset. An offbeat thing about this project is how unclear the story develops, the plot points whisking the player arbitrarily into the next scene like an unfolding dream. And what a dream, snapping itself into a variety of moods rendered with your signature sense of wonder. There's the depressing prologue with Kalfkaesque nightmare imagery and scenarios. This is followed by Lost Civ idyll, a peaceful fetch quest intruded by gloom as for some reason you are gearing up in the middle of a vacation. This somehow segues into a mystery thriller that is immediately put on pause for another piece of Lost Civ whimsy in the third map. The point is there's such a weird progression of attitudes and emphasis in here, which sort of underscores the mood piece nature of the project
 

4) On a per scene basis, it's as wonderful as anything you've ever done. 02 and 04 can easily beat their equivalents in the first Lost Civ in terms of sheer visual awe, and they have the benefit of using advanced features that allow for a level of interactivity and detail not possible in Boom format. There's also some new things, like the surreal poetry that opens the mapset, or the ghost town of MAP04, one of your most haunting locations yet. 
 

5) The collectables seem to follow a similar philosophy as the expanded bestiary and arsenal: flavor is key. I was wondering why I was collecting so much money, food, and other miscellaneous items considering that they don't actually provide any gameplay benefits, but then the world started feeling more vibrant when there's so many props lying around. I read your OP after finishing the project, and it seems our thoughts mostly align.
 

6) If there is something I felt was lacking, is that all of this doesn’t *go* anywhere when it is all said and done. The mapset is a series of extraordinary moments, but there’s not a whole lot to tie the whole thing together: the story just sorta ends, the mapset pulls all over the place in gameplay concepts . So this is where I agree with MoiraHeart on this point, but to me the project does make sense like pages of an imaginative diary, with the same feeling as those doodles except it’s stuffed together and executed by a master mapper. There’s a charm in a kind of expression that feels spontaneous and eclectic as this one, and it helps that each individual beat is good at something one way or another.

7) So in the end, it's not quite as tight and focused as the first project, but it also goes in directions that are very interesting, probably the weirdest sequel project ever developed in the Doom community. Furthermore, after it was all said and done I was still moved by the many individual beats in here. The messier combat did not bother me all that much, and I was intrigued and pulled in by all the locations and scenarios in this episode. It's a work that's just as alive as your previous one, even if it plays very little like it. When I put it down, all sorts of wonderful memories will follow me, from observing crane silhouettes as they suspend in dusk in map04, to observing storefronts in map03, to avoiding death bots in the lab segment as walls fall apart, to watching dried leaves fly away from concrete in map01. There are flaws to point out, and I've listed some of them above, but I'm not sure how necessary it is for me to continue to do so when it's born from a work so vital and spectacular.

I played the 0.5 version, so I'm probably missing a lot of the fixes.
 

 

Good feedback. Can't disagree on any point I guess.

 

I'm still thinking I should have released this with different name so no comparison would have been made. Actually 1.0 doesn't have massive differences.

 

Spoiler

 

1) Yeah the combat was never intented to be too grindy on the 1st one. On this 2nd, it is on "last role". I tried something new and not expected it to be better than years of history what the original gameplay is..

 

2)I have nothing to say, I think you are right on all points here.

 

3)That's true also. The pacing of the whole thing was difficult. I propably tried to do too much. There should have been more combat scenes... but those would have propably been even more out of place.. One purpose was tho shake a little. Make wonder what is this all about..

 

4) Thanks!

 

5) Yes. I think it is nice when there is stuff to find and not every item is strictly meaningful. 

Those hearts could have had a bigger role. Like bundling ammoboxes with black hearts. That could mean you steal that ammo and/or you trade ammo for health. And when you pick up a red heart enemies are scared at you for sometime.

So they could lead to at least three gameplay styles. Collect all red hearts or black hearts, or both.

As there are those "achievments" at the end it may bring replayability for completionists/explorers who wants to "get it all", while those are not communicated too well how to unlock 'em.

 

6/7) There was an idea to have alternate endings.. Like you could be "bad" or "good" how you play.. Do you save enough captives..You couldn't see the loved one in the end if played "bad".. Even alternate routes if you find tools to fix things etc.  And there is slightly that even now, however it is very minor an poorly communicated. I was trying to do that in lost civ 2 demo/intro but it just was becaming too much of a mess. Mostly people just run through a mapset once so why even bother? I'm not a good storyteller also. I just like the worldbuilding. But yeah, it is a big pile of lost chances. Couldn't just get it all together as a cohesive packet.

 

 

 

[JoeyKelastiof]

Just finished Lost Civilization II! I have to say I loved it! You really captured some of the elements I like: Once again great maps, great architecture, great atmosphere and scenery!
I liked the small RPG elements. The combat was tough, especially if you only use autosaves, but it helps put you in the shoes of the survivor / hero. I liked the story too and I found the weapons balanced and not overpowered.
The only downsides I found are that: (spoilers) 

Spoiler

I could not access the secret locked map because I did not get all achievements and that the adventure might have been a dream. Unless you confirm it was indeed a dream, I'd like to keep it as a headcanon that it was some alternate dimension the hero slipped in instead :D.

Overall really good job on these maps, it's a different style and approach compared to the first Lost Civilization, but I feel like it had to be made and it turned out great! I hope to see more of your work out there, wether it is doom wads or a whole game!

[Jaska]

On 3/10/2024 at 6:34 AM, JoeyKelastiof said:

Just finished Lost Civilization II! I have to say I loved it! You really captured some of the elements I like: Once again great maps, great architecture, great atmosphere and scenery!
I liked the small RPG elements. The combat was tough, especially if you only use autosaves, but it helps put you in the shoes of the survivor / hero. I liked the story too and I found the weapons balanced and not overpowered.
The only downsides I found are that: (spoilers) 

  Reveal hidden contents

I could not access the secret locked map because I did not get all achievements and that the adventure might have been a dream. Unless you confirm it was indeed a dream, I'd like to keep it as a headcanon that it was some alternate dimension the hero slipped in instead :D.

Overall really good job on these maps, it's a different style and approach compared to the first Lost Civilization, but I feel like it had to be made and it turned out great! I hope to see more of your work out there, wether it is doom wads or a whole game!

 

Thanks for the feedback! Nice you liked it :-) I've already worked a little on "something". Progress is very slow and I have no idea what it will become.

 

Spoiler

Yeah, the secret level is maybe a bit too hard to get into.

 

It's up to anyone to interpret what it is..maybe dream.