Embryo: where each map is smaller than the last

[Tangra]

5 minutes ago, MrBlaskovitz said:

 

 

Oh, no... don't make me sad now. Don't take the feedback too serious, it's just an opinion... keeping forum activity, that's all. At the end of the day, it's important to like your own maps, if you have that, you're set, the criticism you can take or leave. I'm not an expert by any means... you think i'm super confident with my maps and combat encounters? If only you knew how much i'm second guessing myself all the time. :D Like i said, i like your map, and i wouldn't say anything if it's placed a bit earlier in the megawad.

 

Okay, last one, and then i'll stop spamming the thread with my nonsense...

 

On 9/8/2023 at 2:39 PM, Mario2560 said:

 

Here's an updated version of my map, with the improvements you had in mind.

 

I just played the update, and there's a lot more to this map than i remember. The positive impressions from my previous post remain. I like that you have some continuity with MrBlaskovitz.  Not only does it look like you're in the same building, but the outside view is similar, and that really sells the idea. About the difficulty... you have more going here, but it still feels like an early map, and it's easy even with no armor. That being said, the final fight surprised me positively. When i saw the low level enemies teleporting, i was like, "that's it?", but then the bad boy showed up and it was party time. However, the enemies teleport too slow, and you can go out of the room before it gets hot in there. I see you made it hard to escape by placing that baron on the way, but you can actually deal with him in peace, because you can trap all the enemies in the yellow key room, since they cannot open the door. You should make the door operable by the monsters too... and maybe even teleport a few enemies in the corridor between the exit room and the yellow key room. The four hell knights ambush that happens earlier is also a bit infective. If you unlock the secret room, one or two hell knights can get trapped in there, and they also can't open the door, so you can take them one by one, from the corridor.

[MrBlaskovitz]

2 minutes ago, Tangra said:

 

Oh, no... don't make me sad now. Don't take the feedback too serious, it's just an opinion... keeping forum activity, that's all. At the end of the day, it's important to like your own maps, if you have that, you're set, the criticism you can take or leave. I'm not an expert by any means... you think i'm super confident with my maps and combat encounters? If only you knew how much i'm second guessing myself all the time. :D Like i said, i like your map, and i wouldn't say anything if it's placed a bit earlier in the megawad.

Thanks for the feedback, dude. I really appreciate you.

Another quick fix but here you go :333

Hope you like the changes. :3        MAP19.rar

[Moustachio]

@MrBlaskovitz Demo for the latest version of MAP19. It's fun watching you incorporate different aspects of feedback into each revision. The map keeps getting better.

 

I liked the new additions a lot. The arch-vile near the exit is better than the hell knight, but still pretty tame. I could probably have just run past it and hit the exit switch. But the star of the show was the arch-vile in the first computer room. That was a pretty fun twist seeing an AV that early, and the environment was good for that kind of fight. Plenty of weak demons to keep the AV busy resurrecting.

 

I think the yellow key trap broke again because the zombies didn't teleport in. The yellow room also feels like a bit of a throwaway encounter since it is just a hell knight and two pinkies. I liked the environmental storytelling bit of breaking into the security desk and opening the elevator from there though.

 

The soulsphere secret is nice though the metal panel looks the same as all of the metal panels in the other room which are not secret. I only found it via pressing use on everything, not because I was given a hint to open that particular locker.

 

One final bug, the chaingunner outside the window at the end of the hallway sometimes falls off the platform before dying, rendering him an unobtainable kill. I would just use the monster block linedef flag to keep him on that platform.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Moustachio

[MrBlaskovitz]

9 minutes ago, Moustachio said:

I think the yellow key trap broke again because the zombies didn't teleport in. The yellow room also feels like a bit of a throwaway encounter since it is just a hell knight and two pinkies. I liked the environmental storytelling bit of breaking into the security desk and opening the elevator from there though.

 

The soulsphere secret is nice though the metal panel looks the same as all of the metal panels in the other room which are not secret. I only found it via pressing use on everything, not because I was given a hint to open that particular locker.

@Moustachio
@Tangra

 

Quick Fix #2 

Here you go ;333    MAP19.rar

[Moustachio]

@MrBlaskovitz Just discovered a soft-lock in GZDoom. Since the enemies are not infinitely tall in GZ, you can stand on the first arch-vile, kill it, and get stuck in its cubby.

 

The chaingunner can still fall off his platform outside of the hallway window. Here's a demo that shows off the bug.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Moustachio

[MrBlaskovitz]

34 minutes ago, Moustachio said:

@MrBlaskovitz Just discovered a soft-lock in GZDoom. Since the enemies are not infinitely tall in GZ, you can stand on the first arch-vile, kill it, and get stuck in its cubby.

 

The chaingunner can still fall off his platform outside of the hallway window. Here's a demo that shows off the bug.

 

Quick Fix #3

Hope this fixes the last few problems :3      MAP19.rar

[Moustachio]

Here's MAP01. A pretty spacious first level that's actually fairly challenging. I think it's about Plutonia MAP01 difficulty on UV. Takes place on an Earth base by the sea.

 

 

MAP01: Moment of Conception

Music: "Emulations" by @Psyrus

Sky: Doom 2 SKY1

Tested with: DSDA-DOOM AT COMPLEVEL 9 BECAUSE I MADE THE RULES (and gzdoom)

 

Obsceneshots (-nomonsters):

Spoiler

 

@MrBlaskovitz Demo for the latest revision of MAP19. The zombies in the middle sector don't teleport in for the yellow key ambush. Chaingunner also fell off the ledge again.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Moustachio

[Tangra]

@Moustachio it certainly is harder for Map01, but it's not hard overall. If i can survive it on UV with only two deaths, i think most Doom players will. There are plenty of resources everywhere to keep you going, and the biggest dangers are incoming projectiles from afar, which is not a big deal if you keep moving. The combat was fun, and i know that's not easy to do with so many wide open spaces, as i've tried to make such an open map before and wasn't very happy with how my encounters turned out. 

About the rest... I sure love a good tech base, even better if it's a nukage one, it is definitely my favorite map theme in Doom. I get impressed by much less detailed bases, but this one has both, great detail and architecture. Loved the outside structure, the giant pumps, or cranes... whatever they are, they give me ideas of something similar for future maps. I don't know if i miss any misalignment, it will be harder to notice that stuff with the big open spaces. For that, i will have to replay without monsters and pay close attention to the textures.

[BeachThunder]

1 hour ago, Moustachio said:

Here's MAP01. A pretty spacious first level that's actually fairly challenging. I think it's about Plutonia MAP01 difficulty on UV. Takes place on an Earth base by the sea.

 

This is very well crafted and the general map design here is great. Also some excellent background details (I love the Icon of Sin textures on the cranes).

 

But, this is the first level of a megawad where "maps 01-05 should be on the easier side." At least to me, this definitely does not feel like it's on the 'easier side'.

 

And I disagree that this is of a similar difficulty to Plutonia MAP01. That level has 46 enemies on Hard (yours has about three times that amount). You have a spider mastermind and an archvile on all difficulties. Also, in the Plutonia map, pretty much everything is contained to discrete rooms. In your map, it's very open, meaning you can and will be attacked from many different sides at once (often via distant hitscanners) - it can become extremely overwhelming and chaotic.

 

But, also, I mean, it is your project, so...I guess if this is the kind of difficulty you envisioned the opening level having, then who am I to argue?

[Moustachio]

@BeachThunder I think those are fair points. Here's an easier version of MAP01 with 74 enemies on UV. Arch-viles have been removed or replaced on lower difficulties, and a lot of the enemies have been flagged for multiplayer only (including the mastermind). Also caught a misalignment or two.

 

What do you think about this version's difficulty?

Edited September 12, 2023 by Moustachio

[BeachThunder]

1 hour ago, Moustachio said:

@BeachThunder I think those are fair points. Here's an easier version of MAP01 with 74 enemies on UV. Arch-viles have been removed or replaced on lower difficulties, and a lot of the enemies have been flagged for multiplayer only (including the mastermind). Also caught a misalignment or two.

 

What do you think about this version's difficulty?

Yeah, I'd say that's a lot better. The only thing I might still change is the amount of lost souls spawning in while you're on the silver catwalk leading to the red key. I suppose it's alright on on Hard, but maybe fewer on Medium and Easy.

[SCF]

Went and played the other new submissions and recorded FDAs. Some entries didn't include a version number - I used whatever was in the current OP at time of posting, so demos may desync in other versions of the map.

 

MAP01 by @Moustachio (v2)

moust-embryo-MAP01_V2_scf_fda.zip

 

I think this is a good opening map. Nothing crazy, but enough resistance to keep it interesting. The layout makes great use of being the largest map in the set without being overly long or crowded. I overlooked the lifts to the red and blue gates at first, so I did have to look around a bit, but it's not like they're difficult to find. The archvile is maybe a bit hard to spot from all the way behind a grate. Early on I was getting targeted and I had no idea where it was coming from.

 

MAP09 by @DerBlanca (v4)

embryo_derblanca_v4_scf_fda.zip

 

It's interesting how this one is only 25% smaller than map 1 but already feels a lot more cramped (but not in a bad way). You can skip the button near the start that lowers the wall blocking the ledge since you can squeeze your way through (I thought it might be a secret). I didn't find two of the secrets, and without them ammo seems very tight. I almost couldn't get the last kill, and if that surprise archvile had revived the mancubus I would've probably been screwed.

 

MAP19 by @MrBlaskovitz

MAP19 Submission - Heaven Can Wait.zip

 

I didn't read every post in the thread so I don't know if it was brought up before, but to me this is such a close replica of Going Down map2 that it's more of a copy than a homage. Changing up the layout a little bit would've gone a long way.

 

MAP20 by @Mario2560

Hell can't wait_scf_fda.zip

 

The map design is serviceable, but it's mostly shotgunning imps in corridors, which doesn't feel right for map 20. I'm not expecting every entry to be crushingly difficult, but the enemy and weapon variety is what you'd expect from very early on in a megawad. There's also not that much ammo, so I just ignored the baron at the end. In fact, the whole last fight seems rather optional, since you can just leave the room and exit.

 

MAP21 by @Lina

Embryo MAP21 - Gutmachine - Revision 2_scf_fda.zip

 

This is a great map! Barely survived my first attempt against all odds, although I left two mancubi behind so it's not 100% kills. It's very compact and constantly keeps you under pressure from different sides. No idea where the secrets are (even though I saw one sector on the map), but I didn't spend much time looking for them.

 

MAP27 by @Raith138

Realm of Sargentia_scf_fda.zip

 

Simple but effective, which is a necessity when you get this small. Since maps are allowed to have scenery outside the play area, it would looker nice if it wasn't just a box.

 

MAP28 by @BeachThunder

Embryo MAP28 - Deliverance1point2_scf_fda.zip

 

Really creative way to use the limited space. Unfortunately I couldn't figure out how to get the red key, so the demo is unfinished. I tried twice because I thought maybe some contraption broke. If you're supposed to jump to it from the other platform like I was trying, it seems unnecessarily hard due to invisible walls. If that's not the intended way, it could probably be made clearer.

 

 

[netcurse2000]

Played Map01 on UV. Good opening map. Found all secrets. BeachThunder writes absolutely correctly about amount of lost souls. Finding the red and blue teleporters for the first time can take a relatively long time. And yet - this is first map of the megawad, and we already get all weapons except plasma gun and BFG, and we also meet all monsters, except bosses and barons(?). Isn't it too early? It looks like the megawad will be quite challenging.

Edited September 12, 2023 by netcurse2000

[Tangra]

I personally don't mind the full enemy roster here, because even though this is the first map, it's also the biggest in the megawad, and i really don't see it working well with just hitscanners, imps, pinkies and maybe cacodemons... not with how open it is anyway. If there's anything that needs removal, it will be the mastermind, and maybe the pain elementals, as they are very random and can cause real chaos in that amount of space.

The question is, should the biggest map in the megawad, also be the easiest, with the least monster and weapon variety? Considering how unique this project is, i doubt a balanced difficulty progression can be achieved. I mean, it can be achieved, but it's not going to be easy. There are more big maps comming in the first third of the slots, and it will be interesting to see how it the whole thing turns out.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Tangra

[BeachThunder]

4 hours ago, SCF said:

MAP28 by @BeachThunder

Embryo MAP28 - Deliverance1point2_scf_fda.zip

 

Really creative way to use the limited space. Unfortunately I couldn't figure out how to get the red key, so the demo is unfinished. I tried twice because I thought maybe some contraption broke. If you're supposed to jump to it from the other platform like I was trying, it seems unnecessarily hard due to invisible walls. If that's not the intended way, it could probably be made clearer.

The solution is

Spoiler

shooting the switch next to the red skull. I've thought about it, and I don't really know what to do to communicate it better. I used that specific switch texture twice beforehand to hopefully indicate that it's something only activated by shooting.

 

And I did see that you noticed the switch because you ended up shooting at it in the end - except you were too low. Perhaps I should lower the switch a bit? Or make the switch flicker to draw more attention to its importance? Or reposition the switch entirely? I dunno.

 

Edit: okay, well,  I'm gonna update it anyway, because I think it's just generally better (and it means there's no longer an advantage to using mouselook - if one so chooses to do so...)

 

Deliverance v1.3:

 

• Lowered switch on the bottom right of the map.
• Made the monster encountered after the blue door a spectre on all difficulties.
   

Download: https://doomshack.org/uploads/Embryo MAP28 - Deliverance1point3.wad

Edited September 12, 2023 by BeachThunder
Added v1.3 update

[Moustachio]

Enjoying the discussion and the feedback everyone, keep it coming!

 

I suppose I can let go of my precious skull swarms… at least on single player.

 

Actually, I’m happy with letting MAP01 feature many of the enemies and weapons since I want to convey that this will be a much more challenging wad than Doom II. Playing some of the later maps like 21 & 27, it seems that it’s already shaping up to be quite difficult.

 

As far as difficulty progression goes, I’ve had a mindset from the start that we will get there when we get there. It was never going to be easy to manage since you can’t really just swap maps around here. I think lots of feedback and revisions will need to be had later on to tighten the difficulty curve.

 

@MrBlaskovitz MAP19 really is a carbon copy of Going Down MAP02, so I’ll have to reject it unfortunately. It was okay that it was a beginner map, but blatant plagiarism isn’t really what I would consider a reasonable submission. It’s too bad I hadn’t played GD in so long, as I might not have caught that. Thanks, @SCF.

 

MrBlaskovitz, I’d really like to give you a chance to come up with an original map, but I’m not sure I can trust you with that at the moment. I’m opening up MAP19.

[TJG1289]

Played through Map01 on UV, mostly so I could have an idea on difficulty for my Map02, and to give me ideas on how to do some proper visual design. I really liked it! Like the others have said, it was surprisingly difficult. Definitely harder than I thought it would be, and I wasn't planning on making my map02 that tough. I died 3 times I believe, but once I finally figured out where the rocket launcher and SSG were, it wasn't too bad. The openness of the map made it pretty chaotic. I didn't play the nerfed UV version, but I don't mind keeping this one. I'm not sure if I should try to make my map harder to match this, or keep it the way I was intending?

 

As for my map, I'm slowly chipping away at it. I'd say I'm about 1/3 of the way done with it. It's just taking me a little bit to figure out how to do some mapping tricks. It took me like an hour to figure out how to use dummy sectors to make a column rise from the floor. The general idea is a city square map that starts on the roofs and goes through a building or two before heading onto the ground for a more open rocket-fest. I also have a vision of cannons shooting enemies at you, so I'll need to figure that out. I'm hoping to make some more work on that later in the week. I'm going to make the map, do the enemy placement and encounters, then do the visual design. I think once I get the encounters done and make the map beatable, I'll post the pre-textured WIP for feedback. 

[Lina]

@Moustachio Played v2 on UV.
The midi and open airy techbase design make the map delightful to run around in. I ended up wandering around looking for switches at several points, though bear in mind I was vibing and a bit absent-minded. Difficulty-wise every encounter felt right for your stated intent; however, the pain elementals in a wide open area might come off as too much for a map01. They're not really harder to deal with than the rest of the encounters, but might make the map seem more difficult than it is. The lost soul flood might feel that way too, but that one's near the end of the map, so I don't think it'd give off that impression as much.
@BeachThunder Played v1.3 on UV.
Clever use of boom features and space outside the playable area, re-uses and re-populates space, height variation, doomcute on the floors, dial-up midi, it ticks all the right boxes. The only notes I'd make are that it could use some more variation in lighting, and that the baron at the end felt a bit shell tax-y. I think you could get away with an archvile and an ambush behind the player (maybe also containing an archvile), especially for map28.

[Moustachio]

@TJG1289 Definitely check out the V2 version if you're planning on making your map easier. I do think the updated difficulty will probably align more closely with what you're cooking up, but I'd play V2 first.

 

Cannons shooting enemies sounds like it can be done with some silent teleports and conveyor belts. I think I'll let you figure the fun parts out though, that sounds like an awesome feature! Thanks for the update.

 

@Lina Thanks for playtesting! I agree that the pain elementals are a bit much and I'll axe them in V3. I think I'll make about half of that lost soul swarm co-op only as well. I'll also make all switches and lifts fullbright in some way and try to make sure someone won't miss the way forward quite as easily. Seems that it's not impossible to find your way around, but I have gotten a few comments about finding the way forward taking some effort (more than I intended anyhow).

[netcurse2000]

6 hours ago, Moustachio said:

I agree that the pain elementals are a bit much and I'll axe them in V3.

 

It seems to me that first one, which appears in open space at beginning of the map, can be replaced with cacodemon. It's really better to remove the second.

Edited September 13, 2023 by netcurse2000

[Moustachio]

Here's an updated version of MAP01 (V3) with the changes mentioned: no pain elementals on single-player, less lost souls in the swarm near the end, and the way forward is marked more clearly (I hope).

 

Made a little splash image for the front page from some screenshots of the completed maps:

 

 

@BeachThunder Found a HOM effect above the SUPPORT3 texture here:

Spoiler

Edited September 13, 2023 by Moustachio

[BeachThunder]

3 hours ago, Moustachio said:

@BeachThunder Found a HOM effect above the SUPPORT3 texture here:

  Hide contents

I think I might need more info on this. I've checked in DSDA-Doom with different compatibilities, but I can't recreate the HoM.

[MrBlaskovitz]

23 hours ago, SCF said:

MAP19 by @MrBlaskovitz

MAP19 Submission - Heaven Can Wait.zip

 

I didn't read every post in the thread so I don't know if it was brought up before, but to me this is such a close replica of Going Down map2 that it's more of a copy than a homage. Changing up the layout a little bit would've gone a long way.

What's Going Down?

[Mario2560]

On 9/10/2023 at 10:39 AM, Tangra said:

@BeachThunder i've only played the first version so far but i loved what you have going here. For such a small and cramped space, you made something memorable and full of surprises. I can't really nitpick anything, maybe not everyone will like the cramped spaces, but the restriction should be taken into consideration, and i personally don't mind a little bit of claustrophobia in a Doom level, as long as it's not unforgiving.

 

@Mario2560 i like your map, it feels like a continuation of MrBlaskovitz's level. Like they're part of the same office building on different floors, or something like that. I need to replay it, because i've only tested the first version and that was a few days ago, so i'm not sure if i can do it justice. My only complaint with yours and @MrBlaskovitz map remains the difficulty, which i feel is too low compared to the maps that preceed them. I should play the latest versions of both maps though...

you want difficulty, huh?

just wait till next friday, i’ll show you difficulty

[macro]

So if MAP19 is open, I would like to take it.

 

As a reference, you can see two of my latest maps here and here that I submitted for Box Doom project. 

I am only interested in creating hell-looking maps (MARBxx, SFRLxx, GSTONExx, PANxx and the like), not city, techbase maps, etc. So if a hell map cannot fit in slot 19, please let me know.

[netcurse2000]

Played Map09 on UV. Not most difficult map, but requires careful ammo management. Found 2 out of 3 secrets. mancubus can be shot through a crack in the wall, is this how it was intended? Archvile appearance in the room with imps was a surprise. Probably you could add some ammo at the map end.

[Moustachio]

@macro A hell themed map on slot 19 would be alright. You got the slot.

[Raith138]

I think it needs difficulty balancing because it is brutally hard now but here is an updated 27.

Realm of Sargentia.zip

[Moustachio]

@BeachThunder I see what's causing the HOM.

 

It's the missing upper texture on linedef 112. There's no ceiling showing underneath the upper texture like the sectors around it, so it never fills in the flat texture and leaves a HOM.

 

Spoiler

 

@Raith138 Here's a UV Max demo of MAP27. Damn that was tough. It took me 40 attempts to UV Max. This is a tough level, but I have grown to love it. It feels like an entire Doom II level distilled into two very difficult and fun encounters, and I think using the default music helps accentuate this. What I like most about it is that it's so short that replaying it over and over doesn't feel like a chore. Again, the rather lowkey Doom II midi gives it a more relaxing vibe as well. The gameplay is anything but relaxing, but it doesn't feel like I can really complain about the difficulty when the exit is just out of reach from the start. Some RNG is involved of course, but I don't think the map is impossible, nor unfair. I think it's quite generous with health, and there are routes around the little arena that can help with each fight. Something else I changed my mind on is that it's also an easy map to cheese. It doesn't feel so underwhelming now that the map is really tough. If anything, it feels generous to players who dread roadblocks & difficulty spikes in their campaigns.

 

I also like the little changes from the last revision. I think moving the berserk pack to the same corner as the rest of the health really widens the options for the player at the start. The elevated cubby is also really cool. At first I thought, "Really? Just some former humans?" But considering the amount of times I've been at nearly 0% health by the end of one of these encounters, those former humans (and later imps) prove to be quite imposing.

 

And finally, I actually appreciate the boxed in feel that not going too far outside the lines with detail gives. With less detail, it feels more like a Doom II level, and I personally don't mind this. It gives me a warm, nostalgic feeling, and it also helps me focus on the action. I think it's just growing on me the more I play it. And thanks for taking the time to incorporate some feedback into the level, I think it's just more solid as a result, especially for the MAP27 slot.

 

I did have one complaint: the green armor is right on the player start at the beginning. This is great for pistol starts, but it'll be a bit unfair for anyone coming in from a previous map with less than 100% blue armor since it will replace their armor automatically with weaker armor. Given how tough it is, I don't think players would be too opposed to that green armor being a blue armor instead. Or it could just be 100 armor bonuses stacked on top of each other.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Moustachio

[Raith138]

Changed a few very minor things.

You don't need to play it again.

 

Realm of Sargentia.zip