Embryo: where each map is smaller than the last

[macro]

On 9/13/2023 at 6:51 PM, BeachThunder said:

I think I might need more info on this. I've checked in DSDA-Doom with different compatibilities, but I can't recreate the HoM.

@BeachThunder @Moustachio That HOM has nothing to be with compatibility mode. It happens because of the Source Port that Moustachio used to test your map. If you use PrBoom-Plus, DSDA-Doom and others, the HOM does not appear, but if you use a non-boom compatible source port such as gzdoom, EDGE-Classic or others, the HOM will appear.

You can fix this, but since this project is meant for Boom-compatible ports, it is up to you to fix it or not, because the project is boom-compatible, so someone playing the map without a fully boom-compatible port knows he or she is exposed to these sort of issues.

 

In EDGE-Classic it is shown as this (apologize for the wrong screen ratio):

 

Spoiler

 

Not really a HOM, but the linedef is rendered with some wrong shadowing of some sort.

The reason for that HOM is because of this sector construction that you made:

 

Spoiler

 

 

You placed the ceiling gap next to another sector, and then you raised the other sector's floor up to the ceiling, so the metal texture wouldn't be rendered all the way to ceiling.

 

Basically the issue comes with this specific linedef:

 

Spoiler

 

 

The solution is very easy. You have to create an intermediate sector so the ceiling gap is not directly touching the non-gapped sector, and then lower the intermediate ceiling down to the same ceiling hight than the other non-gapped sector and make these both sectors have the same sector light as well as the same texture, something like this:

 

Spoiler

 

 

In 3D preview it looks like this, hopefully it can be understood well:

 

Spoiler

 

 

And the result in EDGE-Classic is as follows (again, excuse the strange screen ratio):

 

Spoiler

 

I don't know how it would look in gzdoom, since I don't care about that port at all.

 

Also, I am not sure why you made that ceiling gap. If you wanted to make the lava on the floor to have 255 of brightness but not see that brightness on the ceiling, you could have used a "261: BOOM - Transfer Ceiling Light" line action on a dummy sector instead of a gapped ceiling. That will probably avoid these sort of HOMs and issues.

Edited September 15, 2023 by macro
Typo

[taufan99]

@macro Tangentially related, but what map editor are you using there? I'm interested in trying it out.

[BeachThunder]

2 hours ago, macro said:

@BeachThunder @Moustachio That HOM has nothing to be with compatibility mode. It happens because of the Source Port that Moustachio used to test your map. If you use PrBoom-Plus, DSDA-Doom and others, the HOM does not appear, but if you use a non-boom compatible source port such as gzdoom, EDGE-Classic or others, the HOM will appear.

You can fix this, but since this project is meant for Boom-compatible ports, it is up to you to fix it or not, because the project is boom-compatible, so someone playing the map with a boom-compatible port knows he or she is exposed to these sort of issues.

 

Thanks for the write-up! It's really helpful. I'm basically coming from making stuff in UDMF where you can just set the light value of a ceiling independent of the floor. In my mind, I just thought ceiling gaps were the go-to solution for non-UDMF stuff.

 

Also, for the record, it displays perfectly in GZDoom.

[macro]

@Moustachio Just one question about the rules. In rule number #5 you mention that sky transfers are allowed, but also you say that a texture .png should be shared or something. Does that mean that we can use one custom texture for the sky? Can that be an animated texture?

 

Also, I don't see any guideline about weapons allowed on maps. I mean, if the person from map02 creates a map with the BFG, things can get broken on successive maps that are not designed for such weapon.

I think a rule that limits what weapons can appear up until certain level could avoid some issues, such as "Rocketlauncher only maps 10 and ahead", "plasma gun only on maps 15 and ahead", "BFG only maps 20 and ahead", etc

 

Also I noticed in your map, MAP01, some linedefs have a linedef action of #450. I used three different map editors, and none of them have that action registered. Could you please illustrate us what linedef action #450 is for?

 

 

3 hours ago, BeachThunder said:

Thanks for the write-up! It's really helpful. I'm basically coming from making stuff in UDMF where you can just set the light value of a ceiling independent of the floor. In my mind, I just thought ceiling gaps were the go-to solution for non-UDMF stuff.

 

Also, for the record, it displays perfectly in GZDoom.

 

I think that ceiling gaps are mostly useful just for vanilla. I sometimes tend to create them until i realize that there is a better way in Boom ; )

 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, taufan99 said:

@macro Tangentially related, but what map editor are you using there? I'm interested in trying it out.

 

It is Eureka 1.27b. There is an updated version on GitHub if you are willing to compile it yourself.

Edited September 15, 2023 by macro
typo

[TJG1289]

5 minutes ago, macro said:

I mean, if the person from map02 creates a map with the BFG, things can get broken on successive maps that are not designed for such weapon.

I have no intention of providing any cell weapons, but I get your point. If anything, this could be designed with death exits or something at the end of each map in that case.

[taufan99]

30 minutes ago, macro said:

It is Eureka 1.27b. There is an updated version on GitHub if you are willing to compile it yourself.

Had no idea Eureka is also available on Windows. Thanks, will check it out!

[SealSpace]

A Doom where each succeeding map is smaller than the last? 

 

That's an interesting take and inversion of Doom or FPS map design if I've ever seen one.

[Tangra]

On 9/2/2023 at 1:41 AM, Tangra said:

Update 3:

Map: "The Wailing Fields" (Slot 17)

Music: King Diamond - At the Gates

 

This is nothing serious, but i just realized that i've completely misread the title of the song that i'm using in my map. The real title is "At the Graves", sorry for that. I've listened to that song a hundred times this month without noticing my mistake. 

 

No new updates to the map at the moment, though i did find two misaligned textures. Also some window sectors had the wrong brighness level. I'll wait for now, to do more playtesting, and will make an update when a hard deadline is anounced.

[Moustachio]

18 hours ago, macro said:

Does that mean that we can use one custom texture for the sky? Can that be an animated texture?

You can indeed use one custom texture for the sky, and it can be animated.

 

18 hours ago, macro said:

Also, I don't see any guideline about weapons allowed on maps.

That is a fair point. Since we are all working independently, and we’re all balancing on pistol start, I think it would make the most sense to end each level with a death exit as @TJG1289 suggests.

 

18 hours ago, macro said:

Could you please illustrate us what linedef action #450 is for?

Action 450 is the Eternity Engine specific linedef action for drawing a horizon line. It’s the same as ZDoom’s line action 337. From what I can tell, neither line action has conflicts with any other, so most ports ignore them, and the ports that use them draw the floor out to the horizon. In MAP01 I used 337 & 450 to make the ocean appear endless in ZDoom & Eternity based ports.

[macro]

10 hours ago, Moustachio said:

You can indeed use one custom texture for the sky, and it can be animated.

 

Excellent.

 

So basically the death exit is set as a rule? Since it is not yet updated in the rules, I would like to have a final confirmation of this. Still, please read next:

 

I designed my map so it can be completed in two ways:

 

1) If the player dies after a specific moment during gameplay, then the map will end and the next map (MAP20) will be a pistol start.

 

2) But if the player manages to survive after that certain moment (almost impossible, but "almost"), he will be rewarded something and the map will also end.

 

So for this second option, @Mario2560 @Moustachio please let me know if you want the player to start with some nice reward, or I should reward just some medkit or similar? Or only death exit, no matter what?

[Tangra]

11 hours ago, Moustachio said:

Action 450 is the Eternity Engine specific linedef action for drawing a horizon line. It’s the same as ZDoom’s line action 337. From what I can tell, neither line action has conflicts with any other, so most ports ignore them, and the ports that use them draw the floor out to the horizon. In MAP01 I used 337 & 450 to make the ocean appear endless in ZDoom & Eternity based ports.

 

That's very useful, i was wondering if there's a way to make horizons in Boom. But i see you mention them working only on ZDoom ports with the 337 action, and Eternity, with the 450 action. Does that mean no horizon when playing on PrBoom+ and DSDA? Also, is it possible to find a list somewhere for all these "hidden" line actions (sky transfer, light transfer, horizons and so on...), with information about which formats/ports they're compatible with? I'm curious to see what else i can do in Boom, since i'm still learning the format.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Tangra

[macro]

27 minutes ago, Tangra said:

Also, is it possible to find a list somewhere for all these "hidden" line actions (sky transfer, light transfer, horizons and so on...), with information about which formats/ports they're compatible with? I'm curious to see what else i can do in Boom, since i'm still learning the format.

 

There you go:  https://doomlegacy.sourceforge.net/docs/boomref.html

[Tangra]

5 minutes ago, macro said:

 

There you go:  https://doomlegacy.sourceforge.net/docs/boomref.html

 

I checked and i don't think these particular actions are in there. Seems to be the regular stuff that is already listed and easy to manage in the editor. I've looked for the 450, 271, 337, 261 actions, and they're not on this list.

 

Edit: Sorry, 261 is there.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Tangra

[macro]

1 hour ago, Tangra said:

 

I checked and i don't think these particular actions are in there. Seems to be the regular stuff that is already listed and easy to manage in the editor. I've looked for the 450, 271, 337, 261 actions, and they're not on this list.

 

Edit: Sorry, 261 is there.

 

That file i shared with you is the Boom reference because you said that you were curious to see what you can do with Boom format, so I just shared with you a file that contains and explains in details all there is to Boom format. You said you want to learn the format, so I gave to you the only textbook available.

 

Linedef actions 450, 271 and 337 do not appear there because they are for other source ports and/or map formats, not for Boom.

 

What you see listed in your map editor are the normal and usual linedef actions, but there is more to the Boom format than what you see in your map editor. But to know what you can do you need to study carefully and understand well that file, and not just leaf through it.

[Moustachio]

@macro Let’s go with the death exits as a rule. I think it will ruin the difficulty of some maps (like MAP27) if you had the BFG or other weapons. I’ll go ahead and update the OP. Maps without a death exit can be updated once we compile the whole wad.

 

@Tangra Here’s the documentation for the line horizon effect from zdoom.org. Apparently using certain nodebuilders like ZokumBSP can generate vanilla line horizons as well which I did not know.

[Tangra]

2 hours ago, Moustachio said:

Let’s go with the death exits as a rule.

 

Here's mine with the death exit. 

 

Map 17: "The Wailing Fields" V5

Music: King Diamond - At the Graves

Sky: SKYHX1, from 32in24-15.tex.v2.wad

Tested in: GZDoom and DSDA-Doom

LINK: https://www.mediafire.com/file/9sj9a9xb5esylgl/Embryo_Map17_TWF_V5.wad/file

Edited September 17, 2023 by Tangra

[Moustachio]

@Tangra, here's an example of a nearly silent one (just has the teleport sound). Got the idea from this post.

 

The way it works is by teleporting the player onto a voodoo doll and having the player's corpse slide across the exit line. I teleport the player into an extra sector first since the switch teleport linedef tends to trigger the level reload action once the player dies. This example is a little too fast still, sometimes I still trigger the level reload (which would not be fun for single-segment runs).

Edited September 16, 2023 by Moustachio

[BeachThunder]

5 minutes ago, Moustachio said:

@Tangra, here's an example of a nearly silent one (just has the teleport sound). Got the idea from this post.

You can have a voodoo doll telefrag another voodoo doll.

[Moustachio]

@BeachThunder That's a good point! @Tangra Here's a true silent death exit in Boom.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Moustachio

[Tangra]

This is fantastic! I updated the link above with the new silent exit. 

[macro]

9 hours ago, Moustachio said:

 

Here’s the documentation for the line horizon effect from zdoom.org. Apparently using certain nodebuilders like ZokumBSP can generate vanilla line horizons as well which I did not know.

 

Just be aware that if you use ZokumBSP or its predecessor ZenNode, they will not be able to complete the node building process if your map has a large enough blockmap. Nothing to worry about in this project as we won't be remotely close to their limit, but it is good to have that in mind. For example, several maps of Sunder are not possible with ZokumBSP/ZenNode.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Moustachio said:

@BeachThunder That's a good point! @Tangra Here's a true silent death exit in Boom.

 

@Tangra For silent death exit, you can also do like what I did in this example: Death_Exit_Advanced.zip. It is completely silent even if the voodoo dolls and control sectors are just next to the player and also you can personalize two parameters: 1) The delay between the player push button and his death, 2) The delay between the death and the level exit.

Tested in PrBoom, DSDA Doom and EDGE-Classic. Not Vanilla compatible.

 

I use an advanced variant of this in my map but feel free to use this one if you want.

 

@Moustachio I think in your previous example of true silent death although it is good enough, the level exit and the death all happen too fast right after pressing the button, so some people might not realize what just happened.

Edited September 17, 2023 by macro
Typo and clarification

[Tangra]

@macro Thanks! I see the idea of your version, you want the death and the exit to happen separately, so the player is aware, but i like the faster version more, as it looks more like the level ending normally, and you just get stripped of your weapons and power ups in the next level.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Tangra

[EagerBeaver]

@Moustachio, my level is ready.

 

MAP15: AIN'T BIG ENOUGH

Music: MIDI rendition of "This Town Ain’t Big Enough for Both of Us" by Sparks, downloaded from FreeMIDI.org, slightly modified by Ajoura

Sky: Default "Doom 2 city levels" sky

Tested with: DSDA-DOOM and PR-BOOM+

 

A small "town level". Everything as usual - collect weapons, fight demons, find keys... and also three hidden gargoyle switches to open the secret exit (yes, I added it just in case). Since this level is right in the middle of the WAD, I tried to make it not too easy, but at the same time not too difficult.

 

The playable area is 2304x2304, as per rules, but there're buildings outside of it. Some of them contain monsters, which teleport (or fly out) to the main area.

 

And here're the screenshots (in NoMo-mode)

 

Spoiler

 

Ain't Big Enough.7z

[BeachThunder]

17 minutes ago, EagerBeaver said:

@Moustachio, my level is ready.

 

MAP15: AIN'T BIG ENOUGH

Music: MIDI rendition of "This Town Ain’t Big Enough for Both of Us" by Sparks, downloaded from FreeMIDI.org, slightly modified by Ajoura

Sky: Default "Doom 2 city levels" sky

Tested with: DSDA-DOOM and PR-BOOM+

 

A small "town level". Everything as usual - collect weapons, fight demons, find keys... and also three hidden gargoyle switches to open the secret exit (yes, I added it just in case). Since this level is right in the middle of the WAD, I tried to make it not too easy, but at the same time not too difficult.

 

The playable area is 2304x2304, as per rules, but there're buildings outside of it. Some of them contain monsters, which teleport (or fly out) to the main area.

 

And here're the screenshots (in NoMo-mode)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Ain't Big Enough.7z

Your MAPINFO lump's broken. Gotta change those square backets to curly brackets.

[Moustachio]

@EagerBeaver FDA of MAP15.

 

I think it does have an okay amount of difficulty. I was still able to beat it my first try, but a few of the fights caught me off guard. I think removing a lot of the medikits on UV could help spice it up for players looking for more challenge. I did miss some monsters by the end, but there's a good chance it was an oversight since I rushed into the secret exit.

 

As they are, the fights aren't bad. I took care of a lot of them by retreating into the main building. I enjoyed the action throughout, and the scenery was nice. Felt like you were downtown in the historic district of a city. I liked the secret exit as well, and I do intend to use it. The puzzle isn't too hard, and I like that one of the switches is blatantly at the end, with another one close by. It's a well-designed puzzle, and it didn't take me long to figure it out on a blind run. But I did have to become familiar with the whole level. On the whole, I think this level's a job well done.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Moustachio

[Tangra]

@EagerBeaver had a lot of fun with your map. Looks way bigger than it is, with the way you used the space and with the background views. It gives a feel of an old industrial town with the red brick smokestacks. The visuals are nice, they look classic, but busy at the same time. The fights are easy at the start, but the action picks up towards the end. The health and armor distribution is very generous, and i agree with Moustachio that it might be too generous. That being said, i'm a reckless player and i ended up using most, if not all of the health and armor, but in subsequent playthroughs i'll won't need so many resources. I feel the second green armor is unnecessary, it's way too close to the first armor. By the time i cleared everything there and went around the building to uncover the SSG secret, i still had 70-80% armor without picking up the second one.

 

The arena with the big fight plays very well, i had a blast clearing it up, and the cyber fight there is also nice... except, there is no reason to fight him. It takes time for him to teleport down, and you can just leave. I'm not a completionist, so if you allow me to skip a cyberdemon, i will do it 9/10 times. He poses no thread after you leave his area, he can't follow you (i think) in the other locations. You can probably make him teleport around the map and hunt the player, but it's not going to be easy without causing other monsters to use the same teleports. Maybe the option will be to block the escape route, and have the blockade slowly lower when you collect the yellow key. Unless of course, you want the cyber to be skippable.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Tangra

[EagerBeaver]

2 hours ago, BeachThunder said:

Your MAPINFO lump's broken.

 

I need to re-watch ChubzDoomer MapInfo tutorial 9001 times. Always forgetting basic things!

 

Anyway, @BeachThunder, @Moustachio and @Tangra, thanks for your help. I'll think about items balance and also try to do something with cyberdemon fight. I really wanted to create a collapsing house from which our good old mecha-devil emerges spectacularly.

[macro]

3 hours ago, EagerBeaver said:

@Moustachio, my level is ready.

 

MAP15: AIN'T BIG ENOUGH

Music: MIDI rendition of "This Town Ain’t Big Enough for Both of Us" by Sparks, downloaded from FreeMIDI.org, slightly modified by Ajoura

Sky: Default "Doom 2 city levels" sky

Tested with: DSDA-DOOM and PR-BOOM+

 

A small "town level". Everything as usual - collect weapons, fight demons, find keys... and also three hidden gargoyle switches to open the secret exit (yes, I added it just in case). Since this level is right in the middle of the WAD, I tried to make it not too easy, but at the same time not too difficult.

 

The playable area is 2304x2304, as per rules, but there're buildings outside of it. Some of them contain monsters, which teleport (or fly out) to the main area.

 

And here're the screenshots (in NoMo-mode)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Ain't Big Enough.7z

 

Very nice map. Completed first time in UV without savegames. In terms of difficulty, in the lines of any normal Doom 2 IWAD map, if so slightly more difficult.

I recorded a PrBoom-plus demo. Get it here: demo_map15.zip

 

prboom-plus.exe -file map15.wad -playdemo demo_map15.lmp

 

I think after the Megaphere, there might be a bit too much of health, but still the map is lots of fun, so it doesn't need to be a deadly map to be enjoyable. In my case, I didn't need to use many medkits, only in certain fight I really got injured. Other than that, no problem.

I only found two of the three gargoyle buttons.

Edited September 17, 2023 by macro

[macro]

@Moustachio Sorry for double post.

I made a sample map with a death exit when walking over a linedef. It is completely silent, it is instant death and also instant map exit. You can change the delay between crossing the linedef and killing the player, but you cannot change the delay between killing the player and exiting the map. The map will finish as soon as the player dies.

 

Tested with Boom.exe, PrBoom-Plus and DSDA-Doom. Does NOT work in gzdoom, zdoom or similars.

 

You can get it here. Feel free to use it in your map: Death_Exit_Walking.zip

[Tangra]

27 minutes ago, macro said:

Tested with Boom.exe, PrBoom-Plus and DSDA-Doom. Does NOT work in gzdoom, zdoom or similars.

 

Here's a simple variation that works with GZDoom and its forks, as well as DSDA and PrBoom+:

 

https://www.mediafire.com/file/nrukknlovbmyz6i/Death_Exit_Walking+V2.wad/file

Edited September 17, 2023 by Tangra