Embryo: where each map is smaller than the last

[Tangra]

Thank you for testing and confirming this @Moustachio, we can finally put this needless argument to rest, i'm sorry it dragged for so long. As for you @macro, no hard feelings. Take this as a positive, you could have been terribly misled by the default compativility of the ports, and all of your testing would have been in vain. I'm sorry for being blunt with you, but you really had me on fire over this error/signal 11 thing, because i was testing like crazy and having no such issue, until i did the PrBoom+ default tests where i finally made sense of the whole misunderstanding. So for you to keep question that, i couldn't let it go.

 

I'm going to focus on playing the maps and giving feedback now.

[Moustachio]

@Windy Outstanding combat. I think I will leave it at about 40 attempts for the night though. I'll call it a DNF after 100 attempts. This level is no joke. A real endurance test.

 

I think that everything about the level is outstanding. The aesthetics, music, and flow are all on point. It is just really, really hard. So far this has beaten me harder than MAP21 has, taking me around the same amount of attempts to only get to the last fight.

 

I'll save a full write up for when I either win or get to 100 attempts.

 

As a bonus, I did manage to snap a few action shots by fat-fingering my screenshot button:

Spoiler

Edited September 20, 2023 by Moustachio

[macro]

3 hours ago, Moustachio said:

I can confirm that the signal 11 crash does not occur when using the -complevel 9 command line parameter. This parameter is necessary for testing all the maps in the project, as it sets DSDA/PrB+ to the exact settings of Boom v2.02. That's why Tangra's level loaded in Boom v2.02 and not DSDA or PrBoom+. I believe the default parameter for PrBoom+ is actually -complevel 17, and DSDA's is -complevel 21.

 

So before playtesting your map, make sure to load DSDA/Pr with -complevel 9 set.

 

From here I would suggest that your idea of the default complevel 17 in PrBoom should be also used to test the maps, not to make them complevel 17 compatible, but because chances are people might be playing the project with PrBoom in its default settings not knowing what is complevel, and something might not work. A few things related to physics and friction are slightly different there but for the kind of maps that are being created here I doubt anyone will use anything that doesn't work, but just in case. Unfortunately COMPLVL lump does not work in PrBoom.

 

Still, and for anyone creating maps, be aware that complevel 9 doesn't guarantee that what you implement in your map that seems to work in PrBoom/DSDA, will actually work in boom 2.02.

 

Complevels do not disable MBF actions that work with PrBoom/DSDA but not with boom.exe, such as actions 271 and 272. There might be others but I cannot recall at this very moment. So anyone using sky transfers, be aware that your sky will look like the default Doom2 if someone happens to play your map with any source port that doesn't implement (some) of the MBF functions.

[Moustachio]

@macro People are not dumb. They will know to set complevel 9 because it will be in the text file. Don't worry about any problems that may arise with Boom compatibility, I've seen them all. Please, keep the thread focused on the map development and not on the details of the wad implementation. That is my job, not yours.

 

And if you do have more questions/concerns about implementation, message me privately please.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Moustachio

[Tangra]

15 hours ago, Windy said:

Alright. Here's my map, @Moustachio 

 

Map13: A World of Ichor
Music: "Become the Hunted" by Jimmy Paddock
Sky: DIMSKY3 from Mechadon's box o' skies
Tested with: DSDA Doom, PrBoom+ (Both complevel 9) and GzDoom 

 

Download

 

Screenshot:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

This map is on the harder side in terms of difficulty so I'm open to change some things if it turns out to be too much. Lower difficulties are implemented also.

 

 

Loved most of what the map has to offer. It's a beautiful map! The combat on UV is way, way above my skill level, but i like the idea behind most of the fights. As a result, i'm yet to beat it, I only got to the cybers, and i could finish them off, but i had to take a break, because my death count at this point was astronomical. I will try to record a playthrough with saves after i go through the other submissions... i will probably have to go down to HMP for it. I'm not going to make any suggestions on changing the combat, i'll leave that to the players, who can actually beat it. I'd say the first archvile encounter is very random. I have to see how other players deal with it, but i died there again, and again, and again, until all of a sudden they just refused to resurrect enemies and ran at my rockets. I couldn't work out a strategy there, for a casual like me, this is a repeat until you get lucky type of scenario. The arena with the popup monsters is not that hard, but it's not my thing. I've never been much of a fan of the popup gimmick (more so in wads that use it regularly), especially when you're forced to eat a lot of damage by hitscanners, while the arena compensates for it with a generous amount of health packs. Still, if the damage rolls are not in your favor, you can end up dead is seconds, before you can even reach the health. I would rather have it the other way around, being able to dodge and avoid damage, with more limited resources if i make a crucial mistake... kind of like what the previous fight were like. The archvile arena is cool, and i enjoyed playing cat and mouse with the bastards... it's tough, and with bad luck you might end up flanked from both sides, but it was a lot of fun, with saves between the switch presses.

Overall, very challenging stuff. I'm a bit scared to see what else you have in store towards the end, i doubt it will get easier. :D

 

 

[macro]

5 hours ago, Moustachio said:

@macro People are not dumb. They will know to set complevel 9 because it will be in the text file. Don't worry about any problems that may arise with Boom compatibility, I've seen them all. Please, keep the thread focused on the map development and not on the details of the wad implementation. That is my job, not yours.

 

And if you do have more questions/concerns about implementation, message me privately please.

 

Sure, no problem. If you ever need opinion or something, you can count on me. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by macro

[Tangra]

@DerBlanca your map puts me at such peace, the only thing that could screw me over is my own stupidity. :D The only reason i didn't die at the end is luck, i ate two revenant rockets at 24% health without dying. I don't remember if i asked you the first time, so sorry if i'm repeating myself... what is this midi? Sounds so familiar, that i have to find the original now.

 

Spoiler

 

@EagerBeaver i like what you did to rebalance the fights and resources. The cyber arena, which i loved before, plays out even better now. Almost got cornered by the cacos, because i have infinite height enabled, but still made it unharmed. Can't say the same for the cyber fight... now you know why i would skip a cyberdemon if you give me the chance to do it, i'm just terrible at fighting them, unless there's room to circle strafe them. My rocket doging rhythm is almost never on point, and with the uneven terrain it was even more challenging to keep it up... but i like that, it's more than a generic cyberdemon encounter. 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Tangra

[Moustachio]

@Windy Demo for MAP13. After finally completing this level, I can safely say that it was very satisfying to beat. I was able to complete it without finding any of the secrets. I think that all things considered, no one fight is particularly the hardest -- aside from those four AVs on the way to the yellow key. Really, what I struggled with the most was the endurance required to beat this map, about 10 minutes of white-knuckle action all single segment. With saves and secrets, I can see other players having a much easier time.

 

Like I said before, I like the map quite a bit. I think I can't really complain about anything in particular. Every fight had some strategy that I could reliably use. The aesthetics are really gorgeous and have a classic megawad kind of feel. I like the midi as well. Pacing-wise, the map is solid, alternating between tough action and some room to breathe.

 

Great stuff.

[LoatharMDPhD]

// I'm still %100 on board. ... got a design brief for myself and everything. as mappers we test our creativity and expand our palette of expression via pain {tested and fair\balanced} to the player...going to open up my research and wits and do some shizz with portals, teleporter, and hopefully sector lighting colour shift transfers.... got a vision here...  and a Mustache to boot INREALLIFE...

[DerBlanca]

9 hours ago, Tangra said:

what is this midi? Sounds so familiar, that i have to find the original now.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by DerBlanca

[DynamiteKaitorn]

MAP08: Silvershine Station

Music: Labrat - Jazz Jackrabbit 2 [VGMusic . com]

Sky: DooM II

Tested with: WooF 11.3.0

Comment: A silver-y station with a main focus on grey-black-blue colours. Also you may notice something is missing as you play. ;)

This map I think is officially the longest DooM map I've ever made as it takes me around 15 minutes to complete.

 

Screenshots:

Spoiler

Start of the map

 

Past the red key door

 

Into the yellow zone!

 

MOAR AMMO

 

Blue zone tiiime

 

 

Silvershine Station.zip

[Moustachio]

@DynamiteKaitorn Just two demos for MAP08. I was able to find only 1 secret and kill all enemies. Funnily enough, the difficulty and overall pace feels really in line with MAP09. I wonder if the whole first episode will be fairly easy. I thought the encounters were engaging while still being an appropriate level of difficulty. Some of them caught me off guard, but I never felt like I was in any real danger. The aesthetics and midi are good, and a good use of the wide space was made here to create a claustrophobic environment.

 

I think if I were to improve anything about the map as a whole, it would be that the traps can be easy to cheese sometimes. I often found myself running and hiding behind a door or corner and just doing cleanup. The fights I did enjoy were the ones with ample opportunity for infighting. The baron and mancubus fight was a great one too, since I couldn't just run away.

 

There are a few things I'd change for quality of life:

• While this switch is indicated by the green wire on the ceiling, I don't really see a reason why the player should rely on a small detail like that just to open the exit. Personally, I like the use of computers as switches, but I can see a lot of people getting a little confused by this part. Maybe other playtesters will feel differently.
• These support textures seem a bit off.

[Tangra]

@Mario2560 did another test of your map on video. I've pretty much covered everything in my previous posts. Here i tried to showcase why the last encounter is not effective. You can trap the archvile and the other monsters in the room, and not deal with him at all. I still did fight him at the end, just to get a 100%. At the very least, make the door being usable by the monsters as well, or just make it stay open once the player unlocks.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Time to dial up the death count now. @Lina i did a lot better in your map this time (though not without some fails), i don't remember if you did any balancing changes, but it felt more forgiving now. You'll have to excuse me for forgetting parts of the routing... there is some clueless wandering in the video, because i'm very bad at memorizing layouts.

 

Spoiler

 

 

@SCF finally manage to beat it with saves between the fights. I feel the first two fights are hard (for my standards, even very hard), but they are still fair. The last fight before the exit... this one captures everything, all the reasons why i'll never be able to enjoy cramped slaughter combat design. In reality, maybe it's just player skill issue, but i see it differently. It's too much trial and error, too much luck based. Doesn't matter how good or bad the player is, he will die there, again and again, until he doesn't, and the stars align for him, and he'll push through. Don't know if you have a working strategy for that scenario there, but i sure can't see one. At this point, if you're able to preserve all your health and armor from the megasphere and the previous fight, you have a better chance. But that's also not easy to do, because the previous fight is no joke. And when the climax kicks in, you are left with almost no room to kill stuff without taking damage from your own rockets. Even then a lost soul, or a sneaky pinky can ruin your efforts by coming out of nowhere in your face, while you blow yourself up. Add the random damage factor, and might as well name the map Russian Roulette. :D I wish you get more opinions and walkthroughs, because i'm very curious to see how the more skillful players and Doom gods will approach it. I am, by all means, a casual player, so look at my opinion from that point of view.

 

Spoiler

 

@Raith138 another slaughtery map. Mowing down the army of shotgunners at the start is fun, but also a bit random, depending on their aim and damage on a sunny day. What happens after that wasn't very easy to deal with, the uneven terrain makes dodging revenant rockets and other projectiles hard. I was able to exploit most of the fight with sneaking corner, that after seeing the video you will probably want to remove. But if you do, consider other ways to provide some cover for the player.

 

Spoiler

 

 

@BeachThunder i can't add much to my previous post about the map. Going for a second run was just as enjoyable as the first time, and i haven't noticed any bugs or problems to report.

 

Spoiler

 

 

[BeachThunder]

Okay, big update. My main goal was to make the level harder. But there's also a lot of other changes. Also included in the zip file is a par time demo - via the Romero Calculation, the par time should be 4:30.

 

Deliverance v1.4:

• Players now start out facing the conveyor belt - with some things already on it. Hopefully this reinforces the idea that this is the place where things are delivered.
• Added some extra enemies (17 extra enemies on Hard).
• Added an ambush after using the yellow skull.
• After taking the second teleporter, the post-red door area gets blocked off, preventing an easy escape. The other entrance to the teleporter slightly opens up though, allowing line of sight to the outdoor chaingunner area.
• Added some signage to the entrance conveyor belt to show when the red and yellow skull keys are available. Previously, it could become a little cluttered, possibly making the skull keys hard to see among corpses and other things.
• Fixed a hall of mirrors issue that some people were getting.
• Added a death exit.
• A lot of aesthetic changes.
• Plus some other small changes I've probably forgotten about.

Download: Embryo MAP28 - Deliverance1point4.zip

[netcurse2000]

Played map28 v4 (I haven’t played previous versions). Level is quite difficult, but not overly difficult. Sometimes there was a lack of ammo. Moving conveyor belts added complexity. Overall, an interesting and original map.

[Andromeda]

15 hours ago, Tangra said:

@SCF finally manage to beat it with saves between the fights. I feel the first two fights are hard (for my standards, even very hard), but they are still fair. The last fight before the exit... this one captures everything, all the reasons why i'll never be able to enjoy cramped slaughter combat design. In reality, maybe it's just player skill issue, but i see it differently. It's too much trial and error, too much luck based. Doesn't matter how good or bad the player is, he will die there, again and again, until he doesn't, and the stars align for him, and he'll push through. Don't know if you have a working strategy for that scenario there, but i sure can't see one. At this point, if you're able to preserve all your health and armor from the megasphere and the previous fight, you have a better chance. But that's also not easy to do, because the previous fight is no joke. And when the climax kicks in, you are left with almost no room to kill stuff without taking damage from your own rockets. Even then a lost soul, or a sneaky pinky can ruin your efforts by coming out of nowhere in your face, while you blow yourself up. Add the random damage factor, and might as well name the map Russian Roulette. :D I wish you get more opinions and walkthroughs, because i'm very curious to see how the more skillful players and Doom gods will approach it. I am, by all means, a casual player, so look at my opinion from that point of view.

This caught my attention, so I decided to record a demo after beating the level with saves. An image demo is worth a thousand words, but here's what worked for me in the last fight:

• Focus on the cacodemons/imps intermittenly, based on which blob of monsters is closer to you at the moment.
• When the revenants spawn, hug the wall near the switch and only move sideways to dodge projectiles.
• When the wall starts to lower, run to the other side of the arena through the centre.
• Try to quickly kill an arachnotron or even both, hopefully this should leave enough space for you to run laps around the arena.

From here on out it's mostly improvisation, just keep moving and occasionally fire a couple rockets at the revenants/fliers and you should be home free. Hope this helps!

 

embryo_map26_demo.zip

(includes the wad file)

[Tangra]

@Andromeda just watched it, great gameplay, and thank you sharing your strategy. It was a close call with 15% health at the end, but i can see your approach was much better than mine. Makes me want to have another crack at the map, but i will wait for the official Embryo release. GG!

[FEDEX]

@Andromeda I congratulate you for including the original wad file along with the demo in the zip, it is a very good way to avoid losing the original file!

[Tangra]

@Windy

 

I did it, i beat the map on UV. This map had me scared to the bone, so i did a few low difficulty attempts, which were still quite challenging, but for the recorded playthrough i went for UV. It was a bit of a disaster, with plenty of deaths and reloads, most on the two cyberdemons, which were very mean to me. I see what you did there by not giving me a plasma gun, you evil genius. Fighting cybers with a BFG is much harder in my opinion.

I'm happy to say i've developed a somewhat working strategy for fighting the first four archviles. I couldn't implement it very well in the video, but you can still see that i was having good success in fighting them. My idea is to circle strafe around the first group of monsters, trying to lure them away from the archvile spawn point, so that when the archies spawn, it is more likely to start attacking you than resurrecting monsters. I'm also taking back what i said about the arena with the popup monsters, in this run, it wasn't all that bad, and the chaingun proved to be a very viable choice there. The last fight is crazy, and i unfortunately couldn't clear all the monsters, as i was struggling with health and rockets. So i just ran away, scared! In all fairness, i wasted a lot of rockets there, while trying to kill the pain elemental before they can show up and cause chaos.

 

Spoiler

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Tangra

[Tangra]

@DynamiteKaitorn this is a lovely tech-base. I always appreciate when gray base textures are used so well, as i myself have struggled before to make a similar gray concept. Yours looks great, and visually i like everything about it.

 

I did two failed attempts yesterday. In the first, i either missed picking up a lot of ammo boxes, or wasted too many bullets and rockets with my bad aim, and i found myself struggling with resources just before the blue key (i missed the plasma gun in that run too). It doesn't mean the map needs more, there is plenty of ammo after this point onward, and i had no problems in the following runs, but it's worth pointing out that i skipped some fights. In the second run, i spend way too much time aimlessly wandering, not because of the layout, but because i completely forgot that i need to go through a teleporter for the blue door. And when i finally got to the exit, i got confused by the door not opening, until i finally noticed the power line from the door, a few minutes later.

 

I wasn't able to spot any problems with texture misalignment, but looking back at it now, i was more focused on the gameplay, action and exploration. Interesting idea to withhold the shotguns. It felt fresh, though it got a little repetitive with just the chaingun in the first 1/3 of the map. Even when i got the rocket launcher, i still had to use it only against the toughest monsters, so the chaingun action continued. To add to Moustachio's concern about some of the fights, i can confirm that a lot of them are optional, and since i was scared of running out of ammo, i decided to skip whatever i can skip, to give you an idea where you can improve things. Not all fights have to be enforced on the player, but it won't hurt if you trap him in a room here and there. For example, when picking up the plasma gun, nothing is stopping you to leave the area and not bother with the mancubi. But if you have some bars lower down and block the way out, with a switch hidden in one of the mancubi closets to raise them back, that will make escape much more difficult.  Also, the two archviles that spawn in a side room, once the blue key is collected, are not very effective in that position. If you spawn them in the big room with the teleporter that leads to the blue door wing, they can be a nice surprise for the player on his way back. 

 

One more thing, the exit teleport didn't work for me in LZDoom, which means it probably doesn't work in ZDoom ports in general. I can test that for you in GZDoom as well, but i'm almost certain that it's not going to work. I just got teleported in a dark closet with nothing around me, and couldn't do anything else. You'll see it in the video.

 

Spoiler

 

 

@BeachThunder nice, even better now. When you said 16 new monsters, i thought that might be too much for the size of the map, and i was worried about it getting cramped, but it doesn't feel this way at all, you managed to keep the same flow.

 

Spoiler

 

[Moustachio]

Now that we have 11/30 main maps, and things are slowing down a bit, we can start talking about a potential deadline. I'm thinking that a few more months for mapping might be doable, but I want to make sure this will accommodate maps on the larger end as well. I know holidays are coming up for many of us as well, so I would like to accommodate for those.

 

How would you all feel about sometime in February? I suppose since this wad is vaguely gestation-themed, we could shoot for a Valentine's Day release. Seems appropriate enough right? Jokes aside, I'm looking for opinions on this, so feel free to speak up.

 

@TJG1289

@IvanDobsky

@Arno

@yourlocalchef

@solidago

@Philnemba

@Makedounia

@PRO-RC

@spineapple tea

@signaturereverie

@russin

@whybmonotacrab

@macro

@SharkyChip

@Jakub Majewski

@Alaxzandarz

@ViolentBeetle

@taufan99

@Large Cat

@LoatharMDPhD

 

How are the maps coming? If you'd like to weigh in on a potential deadline, please feel free.

 

There is currently no deadline set.

[TJG1289]

Oh, I thought there was a deadline of Dec 1. I do think Valentines day is a good deadline.

 

I admittedly haven't worked on my map in a bit. I may have gotten addicted to Borderlands 3... Didn't help I was getting slight Doom burnout to begin with.

 

I am planning on trying to stop playing that and start working on the map again this weekend. I am getting sick tho, but that just means I can spend time doing the map. 

[taufan99]

@Moustachio Sorry for the lack of activity, as I've been much busier IRL recently.

I've been learning the basics of Boom editing, and feel like I should make something unique by going creative with geometry limitations.

Spoiler

I plan on making this level a bit more morbid-themed (something like an underground entrance, almost cemetery-like), using @continuum.mid's death_waltz.mid for the track. Mind if I ask for a cooperative workshop sooner or later? :P

 

And yeah, February 14 would be a decent deadline for me, as it allows me to do other things as well.

Edited September 26, 2023 by taufan99

[PRO-RC]

I'm gonna start working on my map in November.
I'll be participating in NaNoWADMo this year so I won't be making anything for any other projects during October.

We could probably set a map turn in date during January then test into February until Valentine's Day when we release.

If we need more time to test we could push the release to Saint Patrick's Day, It makes less sense but it's still a holiday. 

 

[Arno]

I created a blockout of the whole map and I'm currently adding detail section by section. I was aiming to get the map ready for testing by end of October. So a public release on Valentine's day is fine for me.

[spineapple tea]

I've got most of my map roughly sketched out on paper with the general visuals already in mind, so February is good for me.

[ViolentBeetle]

6 hours ago, Moustachio said:

How are the maps coming? If you'd like to weigh in on a potential deadline, please feel free.

I have an idea that I might do, though I go sidetracked by other things. February seems fine.

[Alaxzandarz]

The basic structure of my map is finished. I'm currently working on the fights and I'm going to work on the detailing after that. I will post pics after all the fights are done. I think the February deadline is fine.

[yourlocalchef]

My map is in progress basically just about at the point where i can start placing things and playtesting/tweaking map layout. I personally prefer shorter deadlines but if everyone agrees to valentines day then so be it.

Edited September 27, 2023 by yourlocalchef

[russin]

Still working on my map, maybe I’ll finish it this week. February is fine for me too