3 small changes to the gameplay that would make the games better?

[Shepardus]

1 hour ago, Noiser said:

I swear to god, on my next gameplay mod I will double the hp of the lost soul just out of pure stubbornness lol

Try swapping the HP of the pain elemental and lost soul, I'm sure that will be fun.

[Duckscout]

Remove hitscan entirely OR give every strong hitscan enemy some sort of telegraph. I've seen one of those modern doom gameplay mods remove hitscan and replace it with fast energy projectiles which makes the game way more fun. 

 

Also, in QC B.J Blazkowicz has a passive ability that heals him 25% of his current health at the most when out of combat. I think this would be good for doom if it was heavily nerfed (it only works if there are zero monsters close to doomguy so players cant just cower and hide to regain health mid encounter). Too many times I've had to reload an older save because I got out of a fight at 2hp and progressing any further is impossible. Idk if that's too much though  

[Duckscout]

2 minutes ago, Duckscout said:

Remove hitscan entirely OR give every strong hitscan enemy some sort of telegraph. I've seen one of those modern doom gameplay mods remove hitscan and replace it with fast energy projectiles which makes the game way more fun. 

 

Also, in QC B.J Blazkowicz has a passive ability that heals him 25% of his current health at the most when out of combat. I think this would be good for doom if it was heavily nerfed (it only works if there are zero monsters close to doomguy so players cant just cower and hide to regain health mid encounter). Too many times I've had to reload an older save because I got out of a fight at 2hp and progressing any further is impossible. Idk if that's too much though  

 

whoops i forgot to add my third change, I think I would change partial invisibility by removing the projectile inaccuracy however if an enemy can fire a projectile at another enemy instead there's a chance for it to hit the other enemy on accident, I think that would be funny and also help the player more. 

[Astar]

I would make the pistol more powerful. Not much, maybe 2-4 units;

Hell Knight's attacks should do slightly less damage, just logically;

Increase plasmagun damage so it doesn't become obsolete after BFG, OR BFG should consume more ammo.

[Jayextee]

I'd make lost soul death spawn two lost souls, just to spite everybody.

[NuMetalManiak]

Spiderdemon HP should be much larger so that it isn't such a disappointing final boss in most cases.

[Cutman 999]

Delete pain elementals from the fucking game, also rebalance the pistol in order to not make it completely useless and desirable to replace it with a shotgun immediately. Rowdy rudy actually had a cool pistol replacement. 

[plums]

3 hours ago, Jayextee said:

I'd make lost soul death spawn two lost souls, just to spite everybody.

lmao

edit: don't play this without a lost soul limit or you might freeze your computer :p

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by plums

[nicolas monti]

1) Mostly changes on some monster hitboxes, those of the arachnothrons, demons and spider masterminds could be smaller without making the sprites overlap with the walls, allowing those types to engage into fight in more cramped areas, specially demons which can get stuck into narrow curvy corridors.

 

2) Health of the spidermastermind higher that Cyberdemon's.

 

3) Speed of demon /specters increased to 1.5.

[St. Mildly Annoyed]

1. swap the lost soul and chain gunners health.

2. Give the cyberdemon the ability to shoot beta bfg red projectiles out of his hand at a slightly slower rate than the beta bfg.

3. Boost the mastermind's health and speed by 1.5, make the hitbox smaller, and replace it's chaingun with a duel plasma gun.

[Meowgi]

1. Slightly buff the pistol - either by making it fire slightly faster, always be accurate, or both.

2. The pain palette should be slightly reduced on the highest end. This means removing the highest palette entirely so that maximum damage triggers palette 8 instead of 9.

3. Remove shotgunners from the game entirely

[St. Mildly Annoyed]

25 minutes ago, Meowgi said:

1. Slightly buff the pistol - either by making it fire slightly faster, always be accurate, or both.

2. The pain palette should be slightly reduced on the highest end. This means removing the highest palette entirely so that maximum damage triggers palette 8 instead of 9.

3. Remove shotgunners from the game entirely

Damn, why do you hate shotgunners? They can be a great source of shotgun ammo, and a great medium between the mild annoyance of zombieman and the fear of imminent obliteration that chaingunners can give players when your trying to ramp up difficulty and tension in a map without making it unfair.

Edited August 29, 2023 by St. Mildly Annoyed

[Meowgi]

34 minutes ago, St. Mildly Annoyed said:

Damn, why do you hate shotgunners? They can be a great source of shotgun ammo, and a great medium between the mild annoyance of zombieman and the fear of imminent obliteration that chaingunners can give players when your trying to ramp up difficulty and tension in a map without making it unfair.

 

3-45 damage almost instantly is more egregious than any other damage spread in the game. While it's less likely they hit their low or high end than other monsters, I am convinced there is no instance where a shotgunner's placement makes a map better. A zombieman and shotgun shells is just better every time.

 

Their near instant reaction time means the optimal method of play to prevent the damage is to hide behind a wall and peek shot them. While this is also true for zombiemen and chaingunners (any hitscanner, so SMMs and Viles included), the zombieman is inaccurate enough and does significantly less damage to where it isn't necessary, and the chaingunners actually end up being an interesting enemy when used right. Their longer windup time, constant refire, and smaller, but more consistent damage range makes for scenarios where they can be used to create an immediate threat while other things are happening, or prevent the player from utilizing all the space in an area until they are cleared out.

 

SHOTGUNNERS on the other hand, are just instant fuck-yous - especially in groups. Their damage becomes so insane in multiples, that if they hit, their wide damage spread becomes EVEN MORE egregious, and they are almost always used in groups. Combined with the fact that one of the most popular tropes in this game for some unknown fucking reason is to start the player off with no armor, pistoling a shotgunner to earn their first weapon upgrade. Pistoling a shotgunner can take anywhere from 2 to 4 shots, and the shotgunner can either not shoot, shoot you and miss/low roll, or just nuke your health pool immediately, starting these maps off with such a high variance that it warrants restarting the map until the former happens.

 

There isn't a way to fix this monstrosity of game design. The shotgunner is inherently flawed and should be removed from the game.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Meowgi

[St. Mildly Annoyed]

8 minutes ago, Meowgi said:

 

3-45 damage almost instantly is more egregious than any other damage spread in the game. While it's less likely they hit their low or high end than other monsters, I am convinced there is no instance where a shotgunner's placement makes a map better. A zombieman and shotgun shells is just better every time.

 

Their near instant reaction time means the optimal method of play to prevent the damage is to hide behind a wall and peek shot them. While this is also true for zombiemen and chaingunners (any hitscanner, so SMMs and Viles included), the zombieman is inaccurate enough and does significantly less damage to where it isn't necessary, and the chaingunners actually end up being an interesting enemy when used right. Their longer windup time, constant refire, and smaller, but more consistent damage range makes for scenarios where they can be used to create an immediate threat while other things are happening, or prevent the player from utilizing all the space in an area until they are cleared out.

 

SHOTGUNNERS on the other hand, are just instant fuck-yous - especially in groups. Their damage becomes so insane in multiples if they hit that their wide damage spread becomes EVEN MORE egregious, and they are almost always used in groups. Combined with the fact that one of the most popular tropes in this game for some unknown fucking reason is to start the player off with no armor, pistoling a shotgunner to earn their first weapon upgrade. Pistoling a shotgunner can take anywhere from 2 to 4 shots, and the shotgunner can either not shoot, shoot you and miss/low roll, or just nuke your health pool immediately, starting these maps off with such a high variance that it warrants restarting the map until the former happens.

 

There isn't a way to fix this monstrosity of game design. The shotgunner is inherently flawed and should be removed from the game.

Well it sounds like you could fix it by lowering the high end or their damage spread, slightly lower their reaction speed, and for mappers to use them in small groups or individually. Though still, even without those restrictions, 90% of the time you can leroy jenkins a room half full of them if you can strafe them hard enough, and That's at 70-50% health with no armor. Also, let's not get too out of hand with our discussion as well, so we don't derail the thread.

Edited August 29, 2023 by St. Mildly Annoyed

[Faceman2000]

3 hours ago, Meowgi said:

3. Remove shotgunners from the game entirely

My gosh, you’ve done it: the wrongest opinion I’ve seen on this site. I’m impressed.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Faceman2000

[Muusi]

The Revenant is the most horrible enemy in the game, FAR more dangerous than any other monster. PlayStation Doom made Reventants much slower, thus making the gameplay better. 

 

The first game had better maps in my opinion but lacked monster variety, which was also remedied by PlayStation Doom, placing Doom II monsters in Doom I maps. 

 

PlayStation Doom always has your back. 

[baja blast rd.]

25 minutes ago, Meowgi said:

Combined with the fact that one of the most popular tropes in this game for some unknown fucking reason is to start the player off with no armor, pistoling a shotgunner to earn their first weapon upgrade.

 

Digression but a really important tactic to have here with the back-facing ones in tiny rooms that are usually the most dangerous kind (yes it's such a common trope that it even has subtropes lmao) is intentionally missing your first pistol shot. 

 

If you hit the shotgunner while it's sleeping and wake it up, it will often auto-retaliate due to a coding quirk. But by missing a shot, it wakes up normally and its high pain chance allows it to be stunned reliably (not perfectly but still reliably enough) until killed. I know some Doomworlders might blanche -- "wasting one (1) bullet??? well I'd never!" "but m'ammo" -- but it's a pretty valuable tactic if you're playing a community project map that came out in 2008.

 

Some bonus footage that shows the different approaches and includes one run where a shotgunner becomes a ghost. 

 

 

[Meowgi]

19 minutes ago, St. Mildly Annoyed said:

Also, let's not get too out of hand with our discussion as well, so we don't derail the thread.

 

You asked.

 

16 minutes ago, Faceman2000 said:

My gosh, you’ve done it: the wrongest opinion I’ve seen on this sight. I’m impressed.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Meowgi

[St. Mildly Annoyed]

8 minutes ago, Muusi said:

The Revenant is the most horrible enemy in the game, FAR more dangerous than any other monster. PlayStation Doom made Reventants much slower, thus making the gameplay better. 

 

The first game had better maps in my opinion but lacked monster variety, which was also remedied by PlayStation Doom, placing Doom II monsters in Doom I maps. 

 

PlayStation Doom always has your back. 

I kind of agree, revenants speed makes it easy for them to back you into a corner, which can be annoying as hell, along with their homing missile occasionally changing at a weird angle to narrowly miss a stair you went up and then smack you right in the ass. But, the homing ball makes revenants much more dynamic, and can be fun in wads like swim with the whales. That's why I hate the pain elemental the most, it's just a boring bullet sponge spawner that makes you either play touhou and avoid getting your cap smacked off by some random monster, or focus on other monsters and run like a headless chicken to avoid lost souls.

[St. Mildly Annoyed]

9 minutes ago, Meowgi said:

 

You asked.

 

 

I know, it's just that I wanted to keep the discussion more brief so it won't evolve into a worst doom monster thread and get shutdown. You just seem passionate about this topic in a way that could lead to an argument.

Edited August 29, 2023 by St. Mildly Annoyed

[Bredd]

To balance the game:

 

1) Give the cyberdemon a shotgun

 

2) Give the shotgunner a rocket launcher

 

3) Give revs homing imp fireballs

[St. Mildly Annoyed]

8 minutes ago, PrBoomerJuice said:

To balance the game:

 

1) Give the cyberdemon a shotgun

 

2) Give the shotgunner a rocket launcher

 

3) Give revs homing imp fireballs

Number three is actually a pretty good idea. If you adjusted the sprites, it would prevent a lot of out of the blue and annoying deaths that can be chalked up to having bad luck. At the very least, it could give players a chance to do, an "oh shit," save.

Edited August 29, 2023 by St. Mildly Annoyed

[Obsidian Plague]

Icon of sin sucks, i'd rather replace him with an actually good boss fight

 

that baphomet fight i started for negative one was partially what i envisioned to be a better boss fight than whatever IoS was

Edited August 29, 2023 by Obsidian Plague

[Lucius Wooding]

PEs and revenants can both be bullied by running right up to them. The revenant will stop cold and try to punch you at close range, negating its speed as long as you keep dodging with good timing. Or you can kite them indefinitely as long as you don't shoot them for a pain state.

 

I've seen some fights where you can safely ignore and even face your back to a wall of revenants to concentrate on other threats. They're scary but with some skill and knowledge they can often be dealt with. Also there are certain patterns and movement habits that will manage the missiles regardless of type or numbers to avoid being hit. It takes some experience and instinct but revenants are more predictable than most players initially think.

[St. Mildly Annoyed]

6 minutes ago, Lucius Wooding said:

PEs and revenants can both be bullied by running right up to them. The revenant will stop cold and try to punch you at close range, negating its speed as long as you keep dodging with good timing. Or you can kite them indefinitely as long as you don't shoot them for a pain state.

 

I've seen some fights where you can safely ignore and even face your back to a wall of revenants to concentrate on other threats. They're scary but with some skill and knowledge they can often be dealt with. Also there are certain patterns and movement habits that will manage the missiles regardless of type or numbers to avoid being hit. It takes some experience and instinct but revenants are more predictable than most players initially think.

Yeah, most problems with those two enemies tend to happen at a long distance or in closed spaces. Also, swim with the whales is a great wad to figure out how to dodge homing projectiles, I've found it's a good mixture between zig zagging and circle strafing to keep them in a stable orbit. After that they're kind of easy. But after playing that wad even dueling archviles can be a breeze if your quick about it.

Edited August 29, 2023 by St. Mildly Annoyed

[gibfrag]

-Pistol could’ve been a machine pistol Beretta 93R shooting about as fast as the mp40 of Wolfenstein 3D. This would’ve made it slightly more useful throughout the game without negating the chaingun since it fires twice as fast.

-The chainsaw could’ve worked with berserk which would’ve made it far more fun to use in many parts of the game and especially multiplayer.

 

-Doom 2 could’ve altered the SG to shoot a powerful slug shell to enhance its use as a “sniping” weapon while the SSG would remain using the buckshot shells. Would’ve perhaps balanced them better and given them more distinctive use cases. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by gibfrag

[Astar]

10 hours ago, Jayextee said:

I'd make lost soul death spawn two lost souls, just to spite everybody.

I have better solution - lost soul death spawn two pain elementals

[Redneb27]

19 hours ago, gibfrag said:

-The chainsaw could’ve worked with berserk which would’ve made it far more fun to use in many parts of the game and especially multiplayer.

The chainsaw being affected by berserk sounds awesome. Definitely should have been a thing. Everyone talks about the pistol being useless but the chainsaw can be worse than useless.

[galileo31dos01]

On 8/29/2023 at 12:55 AM, St. Mildly Annoyed said:

a great medium between the mild annoyance of zombieman and the fear of imminent obliteration that chaingunners

 

Oh, no shotgunners aren't "a great medium", they are a great tedium.

 

On 8/29/2023 at 1:26 AM, Meowgi said:

Their longer windup time

 

Not sure if I'm misinterpreting this but all former humans have the same exact windup time of 8 tics from the instant they stop walking in order to attack. Unless "windup time" is not the same as "reaction time"?...

 

....

 

My takes on the topic already appear in others' responses, but what is a thread if not without people repeating the same things.

 

1. Faster weapon switch/autoswitch. I think that this is being taken more and more into consideration outside of mods is sign that it does improve and benefit flow. However, I don't necessarily yearn quick switching after having played certain wads. It's a quality of life improvement when it's implemented. Makes absolute sense as a "must" when weapons also get a great boost.

2. Few HP adjustments. Fliers have them all wrong imo. Cacodemon and pain elemental is 400, which is a weird value in practice, and cacos in particular tend to overstay their presence in nearly every situation to exist. Myself I would roll with a 20hp lost soul because I'm very picky about this too. Hell knight, archvile, arachnotron and revenant have the best values out of all imo. Well and former humans I suppose. Rest is variable (yes to 1k-2k HP cybs). The spiderdemon needs many treatments but health points isn't one. 

3. Remove BFG and RL's safety pin. I know why they have it in first place. For all I care, it can fuck off.

 

Another take could have been stretching RNG values in general, like the berserk's ridiculous range or the BFG projectile (100-800 is dumb lol), but I can actually work with the other points in vanilla.

[gibfrag]

16 hours ago, Redneb27 said:

The chainsaw being affected by berserk sounds awesome. Definitely should have been a thing. Everyone talks about the pistol being useless but the chainsaw can be worse than useless.

I’ve found that the chainsaw is useful in DM but not so much in SP, though it is better than the non-berserk punch. If it could be buffed up like the fists for the duration of the level by finding the berserk, it would make it way more useful and worth finding in favor of the fist since it’s essentially full-auto melee. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by gibfrag