Is it me, or is there weirdly little overlap between warhammer 40k and doom mods/wads?

[St. Mildly Annoyed]

I find it kind of strange that despite seeing several warhammer fans on this sight, the Imperium and doom guy both being rage fuled demon slaughtering machines, Khorne, the myriad of badass designs and concepts, and the two both being extremely popular franchises that have been around for decades; I've only seen 2 mods, a possible reference in corruption cards, and a failed project. There's probably only a handful and a half of warhammer doom mods in total. It's even stranger once you consider how often people complain the spider mastermind and icon of sin and how weak they are. It just seems highly improbable how nobody with a modicum of spriting talent who's decent at zscript or decorate decided to try editing a leviathan dreadnought or a knight to fit in as a really powerful boss. I can already imagine a boss that stands head and shoulders over a cyberdemon with 8000 health, speed of 14 map units per frame, a storm cannon that shoots projectiles with a third of the damage of the rocket launcher at a speed of 28 map units per frame with blast damage, a cyclonic melta lance with dodgeable lasers that do 120 damage that's fired at long range, and it drops 2 cell packs and realm667 tech armor which gives 300 points of armor and protects against 2/3s of all damage. Too bad I suck at modding and sprites or else I would make this immediately, just look at how cool they are!

  

Then there's also knights and titans, greater demons primarchs, and several other large and extremely powerful war machines. Why is there so little warhammer inspired or even related wads?

Edited August 29, 2023 by St. Mildly Annoyed

[bofu]

I've seen a few WH40K mod attempts. My problem with them is that I don't want to see namby pamby Space Marines in plot armor... I mean power armor. I want to see a Doom mod where you play as Guardsman Sly Marbo.

[St. Mildly Annoyed]

Same. It would make sense when you take damage from lighter enemies and a sly marbo mod would probably end up being less overpowered or end up as a good Russian overkill like jokemod knowing some of the stuff he's pulled off. Besides, who wouldn't want to play as the god of masculinity instead of a smurf for the 10th time.

Edited August 29, 2023 by St. Mildly Annoyed

[Kinsie]

This might be incorrect and I might not be sober at this exact moment, but I recall Games Workshop being fairly litigious about fangame stuff in the past. I do not know how they are nowadays, but I can understand people not wanting to go to the effort of all those custom assets only to wind up getting Foxed.

[Metal_Slayer]

3 hours ago, St. Mildly Annoyed said:

I find it kind of strange that despite seeing several warhammer fans on this sight, the Imperium and doom guy both being rage fuled demon slaughtering machines, Khorne, the myriad of badass designs and concepts, and the two both being extremely popular franchises that have been around for decades; 

Oh please, this is the most shallow comparison I've seen people making about Doom, the closest I have seen Doom and WH being was Doom Eternal, and that's only because 40K was the director's current obsession at the moment. There have always been types of protagonists like "Bad Dude" out there, but these series are tonally and thematically different.

Besides, even if WH is almost as old as Doom, Warhammer fans are way younger than Doom fans. But if you want to make a mod based on it, then go for it.

[Smoothandz]

22 minutes ago, Metal_Slayer said:

Besides, even if WH is almost as old as Doom

 

Warhammer came out in 1983, Warhammer 40K came out in 1987. Believe me, there are pently of older 40K fans (well, depending on your definition of "old")

[Endless]

28 minutes ago, Metal_Slayer said:

Besides, even if WH is almost as old as Doom, Warhammer fans are way younger than Doom fans

Warhammer was originally released in 1983. Warhammer 40k was released in 1987 (as Rogue Trader). WH fans are old as fuck, and the series is way older than Doom.

 

EDIT: Lol ended up posting as the same time as @Smoothandz. The Emperor compels us.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Endless

[Smoothandz]

20 minutes ago, Endless said:

The Emperor compels us.

 

That's right brother, now into the Fires of Battle, unto the Anvil of War! (Salamanders are my bros)

[St. Mildly Annoyed]

15 hours ago, Kinsie said:

This might be incorrect and I might not be sober at this exact moment, but I recall Games Workshop being fairly litigious about fangame stuff in the past. I do not know how they are nowadays, but I can understand people not wanting to go to the effort of all those custom assets only to wind up getting Foxed.

I never knew that, though I thought they were less strict nowadays and that they don't have a problem if you don't make profit off their IP. Isn't the licensing real easy to obtain as well?

14 hours ago, Metal_Slayer said:

Oh please, this is the most shallow comparison I've seen people making about Doom, the closest I have seen Doom and WH being was Doom Eternal, and that's only because 40K was the director's current obsession at the moment. There have always been types of protagonists like "Bad Dude" out there, but these series are tonally and thematically different.

Besides, even if WH is almost as old as Doom, Warhammer fans are way younger than Doom fans. But if you want to make a mod based on it, then go for it.

I know it's shallow and that the two are very thematically different, but that wasn't the point of the list. It was about reasons why I find it odd there isn't more fan made content of warhammer in doom based on shared aspects that fans tend to like about their series and how large the two fan groups are, not how similar their protagonists and story are. I wasn't focusing on the tone and themes, everyone knows there are no true good factions in 40k and that every faction is mostly run by racist psychopaths, dumbasses, or eldritch horrors; and Doomguy is a brutal, yet highly moral man who wants to save humanity at all costs and has never killed an innocent person. It's just that a lot of warhammer and doom fans tend to be in it for highly violent and powerful action, especially imperium fans, so it would make sense for there to possibly be a few known enemy replacements, or mods with a heavily inspired enemy, like one based off a greater demon or chaos tainted dreadnought. Besides, doesn't doom have a quite shallow plot for a game?

Edited August 30, 2023 by St. Mildly Annoyed

[Master O]

4 hours ago, St. Mildly Annoyed said:

I find it kind of strange that despite seeing several warhammer fans on this sight, the Imperium and doom guy both being rage fuled demon slaughtering machines, Khorne, the myriad of badass designs and concepts, and the two both being extremely popular franchises that have been around for decades; I've only seen 2 mods, a possible reference in corruption cards, and a failed project. There's probably only a handful and a half of warhammer doom mods in total. It's even stranger once you consider how often people complain the spider mastermind and icon of sin and how weak they are. It just seems highly improbable how nobody with a modicum of spriting talent who's decent at zscript or decorate decided to try editing a leviathan dreadnought or a knight to fit in as a really powerful boss. I can already imagine a boss that stands head and shoulders over a cyberdemon with 8000 health, speed of 14 map units per frame, a storm cannon that shoots projectiles with a third of the damage of the rocket launcher at a speed of 28 map units per frame with blast damage, a cyclonic melta lance with dodgeable lasers that do 120 damage that's fired at long range, and it drops 2 cell packs and realm667 tech armor which gives 300 points of armor and protects against 2/3s of all damage. Too bad I suck at modding and sprites or else I would make this immediately, just look at how cool they are!

  

Then there's also knights and titans, greater demons primarchs, and several other large and extremely powerful war machines. Why is there so little warhammer inspired or even related wads?

 

 

[St. Mildly Annoyed]

Now this is what I'm looking for! :D

[Thomased22]

I made an entirely homemade doom table top roleplaying game to appease my warhammer friends. Though it doesn't really play like warhammer. It does it's own thing. And also obviously isn't a GZDoom mod or anything lol.

[Nootrac4571]

4 hours ago, Kinsie said:

This might be incorrect and I might not be sober at this exact moment, but I recall Games Workshop being fairly litigious about fangame stuff in the past.

 

GW has in the past swung wildly between turning a blind eye to copyright infringement and aggressively defending it. Personally I wouldn't spend any significant effort on any 40k fan-project simply because their IP policy is unpredictable. Regarding 40k Doom mods, I've seen a few projects, and always been tempted to get involved. -I've wanted a 90s-style 40k FPS since, well, the 90s - but I've held back because I knew I could work for months and GW might still crush whatever I made on a whim.

And that was before Boltgun came out. Now that there's an actual, licenced 90s-style Boomer Shooter, a 40k Doom mod would literally compete with a product they're selling. I wouldn't touch that hornet's nest with a ten foot pole.

[Astar]

6 hours ago, bofu said:

I want to see a Doom mod where you play as Guardsman Sly Marbo.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH intensifies

 

I kinda agree that space marines are boring.

Ofc we have such thing as "Trench Foot":

 

And it's kinda cool.

 

But I want to see MOAR stuff!

More Imperial Guard!

[St. Mildly Annoyed]

4 minutes ago, Nootrac4571 said:

 

GW has in the past swung wildly between turning a blind eye to copyright infringement and aggressively defending it. Personally I wouldn't spend any significant effort on any 40k fan-project simply because their IP policy is unpredictable. Regarding 40k Doom mods, I've seen a few projects, and always been tempted to get involved. -I've wanted a 90s-style 40k FPS since, well, the 90s - but I've held back because I knew I could work for months and GW might still crush whatever I made on a whim.

And that was before Boltgun came out. Now that there's an actual, licenced 90s-style Boomer Shooter, a 40k Doom mod would literally compete with a product they're selling. I wouldn't touch that hornet's nest with a ten foot pole.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but unless you try to make profit off of the wad or mod, you should be fine. GW only seems to give real pushback if fan content is monetized.

[Nootrac4571]

From the Intellectual Property Guidelines page of the GW website:

 

"Games and apps – individuals must not create computer games or apps based on our characters and settings. These are only to be created under licence from Games Workshop."

 

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-SE/Intellectual-Property-Guidelines

 

Edit: To clarify: It's possible they wouldn't notice or care about a mod for a 30 year old game, or maybe they'd even be happy about it. The latter seems unlikely after the release of Boltgun, but who knows? The point is that their policy guidelines specifically prohibit unlicensed 40k games, and regardless, they're absolutely within their legal rights to slap the banhammer on anything that appropriates their IP without permission (excepting certain country-specific laws like Fair Use in the USA, which absolutely wouldn't apply here.)

 

The bottom line is, the moment the mod got popular enough to get noticed by GW, its fate would rely entirely on how they felt about it at that point in time. And I think that's too much of a risk to sink any significant time or effort into a project.

 

Others may disagree! And I hope so, because I still want to play the game I imagined in 1999, in which you play as an Ork Boy stranded on an Imperial Forge World just at the exact moment Hive Fleet Kraken invades.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Nootrac4571

[St. Mildly Annoyed]

9 hours ago, Nootrac4571 said:

From the Intellectual Property Guidelines page of the GW website:

 

"Games and apps – individuals must not create computer games or apps based on our characters and settings. These are only to be created under licence from Games Workshop."

 

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-SE/Intellectual-Property-Guidelines

 

 

Others may disagree! And I hope so, because I still want to play the game I imagined in 1999, in which you play as an Ork Boy stranded on an Imperial Forge World just at the exact moment Hive Fleet Kraken invades.

Well that sucks, but thanks for answering why I've only seen references and no straight up crusade simulators beside space hulk and that one mod that allows you to play as one. Though it seems can hope that either the IP is cheap, GW can be convinced to let it pass due to it being a non profit mod for a 90's game, or we have a rich member with plans for a passion project.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

Yeah, I wondered about how balancing of health and damage numbers would work with 40k theme in an FPS. I played Boltgun for an hour or so and got so bored I had to turn it off.

I you take a role of a space marine, planetary defense soldiers should do next to zero damage to you. Which is kinda the case with Boltgun. You just cut through them like butter. But then if you meet another space marine, that'd be close to 50/50 survivable. If it's a mutated traitor in power armour, they should easily overpower you. In Boltgun, traitor space marines are introduced as second enemy type and they're pretty pathetic, which was very disappointing for me. When the lower demons show up, they're just kinda bullet spongy, and not terribly threatening either.

On the other hand, if you were a planetary defense, your combat survival rate would be measured in seconds. It's like twenty thousand soldiers running straight into pillboxes with machine guns, over a mine field in broad daylight. Nobody cares, some will make it through. Throw enough soldiers at them until they break. That's not exactly compatible with the FPS formula of one-man army.

 

So I don't know. Maybe I'm too cynical but I was hyped for Boltgun, and found it painfully dull. Looks great, kills couple afternoons but nothing exciting, imo. Difficulty scaling/balancing of weapons and enemies is hard, much harder with a well established franchise, such as this. Filled to the brim with nit-picky assholes like myself. Even a power fantasy needs to be contrasted with feeling of weakness and powerlessness, otherwise it's entirely meaningless. You ever wondered why games start you off with everything, and then take it all away so you have to build yourself up to full gear? To give you a taste of how awesome it can be, then how pathetic you are without it, and then let you grow more and more powerful as you go. If you're just all-powerful spacemarine from the get go, that's your baseline, that's what "normal" is. And you have nowhere to grow. Pistol in Doom is so weak that getting any other weapon feels like a huge growth. It sets a shitty baseline, and then everything else feels awesome.

[St. Mildly Annoyed]

6 hours ago, Sneezy McGlassFace said:

Yeah, I wondered about how balancing of health and damage numbers would work with 40k theme in an FPS.

If you take a role of a space marine, planetary defense soldiers should do next to zero damage to you. Which is kinda the case with Boltgun. You just cut through them like butter. But then if you meet another space marine, that'd be close to 50/50 survivable. If it's a mutated traitor in power armour, they should easily overpower you. In Boltgun, traitor space marines are introduced as second enemy type and they're pretty pathetic, which was very disappointing for me. When the lower demons show up, they're just kinda bullet spongy, and not terribly threatening either.

On the other hand, if you were a planetary defense, your combat survival rate would be measured in seconds. It's like twenty thousand soldiers running straight into pillboxes with machine guns, over a mine field in broad daylight. Nobody cares, some will make it through. Throw enough soldiers at them until they break. That's not exactly compatible with the FPS formula of one-man army.

Your statement about planetary defense's weakness is why they would be better characters for a classic fps. Space marines are more than three quarters of the way to being a sprinting tank. It's pretty hard to make a being who's unaffected by small arm fire naked not an overpowered mess in super armor when put in a standard fps. Guardsmen, on the other hand, are just normal humans with a fancy rifle. This makes them perfect for a doom like progression from a lucky trooper, to a formidable force against chaos as you grow your arsenal. In fact, the major durability difference would be a good way to introduce character upgrades as well in a lithium like fashion.

 

[Pechudin]

Doom AI, I feel, is far too primitive for anything except Tyranids (well, maybe da Orkz as well). I myself would love to make maps for something like that but we'd need a texture pack.

[Thomased22]

11 hours ago, Pechudin said:

Doom AI, I feel, is far too primitive for anything except Tyranids (well, maybe da Orkz as well). I myself would love to make maps for something like that but we'd need a texture pack.

Vanilla AI doesn't set the ceiling for enemy AI in DOOM. I'm pretty sure that there's a Quake 2 monster port, 3d models and all. Also hideous enemies have some pretty interesting and in depth AI. 

Just means that the cookery required might be above the normal standard lol.

[Pechudin]

8 hours ago, Thomased22 said:

Vanilla AI doesn't set the ceiling for enemy AI in DOOM. I'm pretty sure that there's a Quake 2 monster port, 3d models and all. Also hideous enemies have some pretty interesting and in depth AI. 

Just means that the cookery required might be above the normal standard lol.

 

Oh I know, I am more in the Vanilla-Boom modding. GZDoom can deliver more interesting behaviour.

[Thomased22]

2 hours ago, Pechudin said:

 

Oh I know, I am more in the Vanilla-Boom modding. GZDoom can deliver more interesting behaviour.

Fair enough.

[Dreamskull]

Any time youve got demons in space, but more importantly, a soldier that can curbstomp hell itself, its warhammer o'clock.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Dreamskull