Custom Monsters would you wish Doom had?

[Amuscaria]

What custom monsters do you think Doom modding needed that currently doesn't exist that would fit in with the current canon (Doom I/II) roster? What roles would they play? What would be their mechanics? Their designs, etc?

Edited October 21, 2023 by Amuscaria

[RonnieJamesDiner]

For the most part, I feel like the members of the community who are both willing to experiment with new additions to the bestiary, and actually implement them in their owns wads/mapsets have carved out some pretty clear niches.

 

I think the big one is the “Weak Cyberdemon”, often showing up in slaughter sets and overall well-received and sought after. The re-colored Cyberdemon at 1,000 – 2,000 HP is fine, it does the job, but I think having an option that’s as dangerous (and adept at infighting) as the Cyberdemon with 25-50% of the HP would quickly become a fan favorite. In a personal project, I really liked the idea of this unit firing 2 rockets in quick succession instead (video below), but the classic Cyb volley obviously works. 

 

Spoiler

 

 

============================================

 

Additional flying units are another popular option, both Low and Mid-Tiers.

 

Dangerous Mid-Tier flyers seem to be in pretty high demand. Scythe 2’s “Afrit”, Eviternity’s “Astral Cacodemon”, Ozonia’s “Hierophant”, Ancient Aliens’ “Alien Guardian”, or even Rowdy Rudy II’s “Flame Caco” come to mind immediately.

 

I think any combination of speed/aggression and a lethal volley/stream of projectiles are the relevant factors (mechanically speaking).

 

Low-Tier projectile flyers seem popular as well, and there’s been a decent variety including 1KL3’s “Gargoyle”, the “Arachnorb” seen in projects like Valiant and Elementalism, or the “Grell” seen in all kinds of mods (from recent memory: skillsaw’s Heartland and Breezeep’s 10 Years of Doom contest winner). Obviously the “Arachnorb” fits the Doom aesthetic already, and honestly the “Grell” fits surprisingly well, but there’s clearly room for something in this role. Projectile and hitscan variants could work.

 

============================================

 

Next up, I think genuine Glass Cannons are always useful. A few memorable ones include Heartland’s “Catharsi”, the “Rocket Launcher Zombie” also found in Heartland and other projects including NaturalTvventy’s “Toxic Containment”, and Tango’s recent “Grenadier” addition to Supercharge. Probably my favorite iteration of this – despite it being less cannon and more melee – is skillsaw’s famous use of the “Suicide Bomber”.

 

Pretty much anything that the player can comfortably kill with the Shotgun/Chaingun, but packs enough of a wallop with a single attack (no Chaingunners here) that they need to be taken seriously, is always fun to have around. And, the mechanic of a “suicide bomber” (the real threat being their death, rather than their attack), is great to throw into the mix.

 

============================================

 

I remember skillsaw saying in his interview with Nirvana that he considered the two holes in Doom II’s bestiary to be that of a Glass Cannon and a Low-Tier projectile flyer (both of which we’ve mentioned, and I agree). However, I’d argue that there's an equal or greater need for another 1 or 2 definitively High-Tier units. For clarity, I personally consider the Arch-Vile to be the only true High-Tier monster in the bestiary (not counting the two bosses), and I think that’s why it gets used so often by mappers when trying to make dangerous scenarios with low monster counts. It’s the go-to, and we all know it. I think this is also one of the reasons why the “Weak Cyb” became so popular.

 

One of my favourite additions to this role has always been Eviternity’s “Annihilator”. I also think Scythe 2’s “Mr. X” was 3 degrees away from being absolutely perfect for this role, had he been just a little less frustrating/bonkers to deal with – and actually, in my opinion “Mr. X” is solved completely by changing his pain chance to 256 (guaranteed with every hit). If you focus him, he’s not a problem, but it requires good aim and concentration in the heat of battle. It also revitalizes the late-game value of the Chaingun, which is super cool. If you don’t believe me, edit the Scythe 2 dehacked and try it for yourself.

 

Two attempts at sort-of-High-Tier units I’ve messed around with in the past include these guys (videos below).

 

This first mob switches between firing 5 Mancubus fireballs in a cone shape (at differing speeds), and launching a burst of 8 Revenant rockets. Forces the player to move in interesting ways (mostly based on existing patterns from the bestiary), and capable of killing the player quickly.

 

Spoiler

 

 

The second mob features a fairly basic concept seen in a lot of games, switching between a straightforward fireball and vomiting a flurry of toxic clouds that drift in the direction they were fired (melts player HP very, very fast, creating a super area-of-denial). Not exactly a “vanilla Doom” friendly concept to recreate, however.

 

Spoiler

 

 

I also messed around with a monster that, upon dying, channels a “vile ghost” that immediately launches into a single instance of the AV attack before disappearing. Seemed like a fun idea playing on the “dangerous when killed” mechanic, but, it never really went anywhere.

 

Spoiler

 

 

I think the idea of a High-Tier unit having 2 attacks/mechanics (ala Arch-Vile, “Annihilator”, etc.), is an important part of this role. Either way... anything that a mapper can pop into a fight that’s guaranteed to get the player’s attention, without having to resort to the Arch-Vile every single time, will always be appreciated.

 

============================================

 

The concept of a small, swarming “Zerg Rush” style unit often comes up in these sorts of conversations as well. Admittedly, I’ve tried on more than one occasion in various projects, mods, and mapsets to create this kind of enemy, and I always end up finding them very un-fun in practice. Generally the issue comes down to HP. Either their HP is too high and they become grindy and annoying to fight, or it’s too low and entire swarms are obliterated by a single SSG blast (if not from friendly monster crossfire). I’ve tried balancing the low HP variant with extremely lethal damage (either ridiculously strong melee attacks, or suicide bomber-esque explosions, for instance (mini glass-cannons?)), but it’s always the case that I end up getting killed by a silent straggler, or getting boned by autoaim at the wrong time, and it just feels cheap and shitty. I think the Pinky Demon has proven to be the best “melee swarm” option, but, I’d love to see more people experiment with this concept.

[LoatharMDPhD]

A T-1000... something you have to lead into a damaging lava floor to kill...

[Xaser]

1 hour ago, RonnieJamesDiner said:

The concept of a small, swarming “Zerg Rush” style unit often comes up in these sorts of conversations as well. Admittedly, I’ve tried on more than one occasion in various projects, mods, and mapsets to create this kind of enemy, and I always end up finding them very un-fun in practice. Generally the issue comes down to HP. Either their HP is too high and they become grindy and annoying to fight, or it’s too low and entire swarms are obliterated by a single SSG blast (if not from friendly monster crossfire). I’ve tried balancing the low HP variant with extremely lethal damage (either ridiculously strong melee attacks, or suicide bomber-esque explosions, for instance (mini glass-cannons?)), but it’s always the case that I end up getting killed by a silent straggler, or getting boned by autoaim at the wrong time, and it just feels cheap and shitty. I think the Pinky Demon has proven to be the best “melee swarm” option, but, I’d love to see more people experiment with this concept.

 

I need to get around to releasing the mapset this is a part of, but I whipped up a Sawcubus enemy (using Captain J's sprite edits) that ended up working out super well. Same HP as the imp, will attack you instantly if you get into melee range, but the attack is continuous damage rather than a single massive blow. They put a ton of pressure on the player since if you run directly up to one or get backed into a corner, you're toast, but you don't get instakilled if you make a minor slip-up and get nicked. I keep using them all over the place since they're so damn effective at making "oh shit!" moments. :P

 

Vanilla pinkies are too easy to cheese, but for dead.air I made them dash forward when they initiate their melee attack, so the player isn't able to immediately back away (i.e. Be Like Goku(tm)) and nullify the attack. It makes for a similar dynamic where you can't get too close or rely on the cheese strat if you get cornered, and makes the monster way more useful for its intended role, IMO.

[RonnieJamesDiner]

6 minutes ago, Xaser said:

I whipped up a Sawcubus enemy (using Captain J's sprite edits) that ended up working out super well. Same HP as the imp, will attack you instantly if you get into melee range, but the attack is continuous damage rather than a single massive blow. They put a ton of pressure on the player since if you run directly up to one or get backed into a corner, you're toast, but you don't get instakilled if you make a minor slip-up and get nicked. I keep using them all over the place since they're so damn effective at making "oh shit!" moments.

 

Okay... that sounds like an awesome enemy! Please do consider releasing that mapset :D

[baja blast rd.]

14 hours ago, RonnieJamesDiner said:

I think the big one is the “Weak Cyberdemon”, often showing up in slaughter sets and overall well-received and sought after. The re-colored Cyberdemon at 1,000 – 2,000 HP is fine, it does the job, but I think having an option that’s as dangerous (and adept at infighting) as the Cyberdemon with 25-50% of the HP would quickly become a fan favorite. In a personal project, I really liked the idea of this unit firing 2 rockets in quick succession instead (video below), but the classic Cyb volley obviously works. 

 

Great post. For extra context, one of the reasons this one is so popular among fans of hard wads is the fact that, mechanically, it is exactly like a cyberdemon in every way but the HP (and that even includes its big size). So it taps into the very richly developed skillset of fighting cyberdemons -- only it also opens up using the cyb in quick skirmishes, battling it in not-overlong fights with weak weapons, using hordes of them without the player needing the BFG, etc. And that's why this enemy is used way more often than a cybruiser in those wads, even if a "1000 HP cybruiser" seems to make more sense on paper.

[gibfrag]

-Something a bit like the ogre from Quake but uses a SSG and chainsaw. 
 

-Some sort of cybernetic demon boss that uses a BFG. 
 

-Something kind of like the stalker from Hexen for Doom that can adapt to all forms of liquid in the game. 

 

-Former Commando, basically a more aggressive and far stronger former human that utilizes multiple weapons much like the player can, some at random, others based around distance between them and the player. Sort of like a MP bot but as an enemy. In other words, a more vanilla Doom twist on something like the Marauder. Probably would look mostly like the Doomguy with the helmet and armor etc. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by gibfrag

[Obsidian Plague]

The flying imp from the Doom bible. Would've been less of a waste of an enemy slot than the fucking SPECTRES, lmao

[Artman2004]

An enemy that becomes progressively stronger as its health lowers. I'd imagine its sprite would mutate as it took more damage.

 

What if there was an enemy that hid from you? And it would attack whenever you turned your back?

[Dreamskull]

One of the biggest mistakes as far as monsters go is that most of them are slow. I would have really liked to see faster monsters.

 

Having just one fast monster isnt enough. Youd have to get a whole category going for it to play out well. Its unlikely to be done.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Dreamskull

[spineapple tea]

The evil marine from Scythe 2 should've been in the original IWADS. He isn't slower or anything there, no, just as is. Oh, and the Afrit.

Edited September 5, 2023 by spineapple tea

[Matt Mello]

1 hour ago, spineapple tea said:

The evil marine from Scythe 2 should've been in the original IWADS. He isn't slower or anything there, no, just as is. Oh, and the Afrit.

 

Seconding this notion. Would also love some more zombie enemies in the original IWADs in general, like the teal-clad Commando from Eviternity.

You could have melee-based former humans armed with chainsaws that are basically a "glass cannon" approach to the same niche Pinky demons fulfill, Does far more damage than Pinkies or Spectres but have less HP.

[galileo31dos01]

The archetype of a monster that can leave traces of something damaging like toxin or fire and the player should avoid contact with it to not loose health. I think of the polydrones from STRAIN, or the butchers in the (vanilla) Blood TC, and none else come to mind, strange... why isn't this type of enemy more common, or rather, less unexplored territory!

 

Additionally, of course this enemy would be a glass canon. Doom doesn't have many outside of chaingunners and revenants, shotgunners maybe if they're feeling a little quirky. 

[Yasha]

I had the idea of a "Sniper-Vile" rolling in my head for quite a bit.

 

Basically, an Arch-Vile, but with a different attack: a fully explosive blast that unlike an AV attack, still goes off even if you get out of the way. Like, if you go behind a pillar, it will just attack the spot it last saw you, but if you keep moving in open space, you can outrun the blast and even catch other demons in it. So, it's effectively a reverse AV--instead of taking cover, you want to stay on the move in open space.

[june gloom]

I rather like the idea of a significantly expanded zombie roster. Short of the crazy-OP ones like a BFG zombie, there's room for a variety of former humans to make for more interesting encounters.

[Maribo]

2 hours ago, Yasha said:

I had the idea of a "Sniper-Vile" rolling in my head for quite a bit.

 

Basically, an Arch-Vile, but with a different attack: a fully explosive blast that unlike an AV attack, still goes off even if you get out of the way. Like, if you go behind a pillar, it will just attack the spot it last saw you, but if you keep moving in open space, you can outrun the blast and even catch other demons in it. So, it's effectively a reverse AV--instead of taking cover, you want to stay on the move in open space.

The Diabolist from Supercharge is actually this, and it's an incredible monster. My favorite custom monster that I've seen in any Doom WAD/mod, in all honesty. I've spoken to Rayziik about it and I believe he's even recreated it in MBF21 in some capacity.

[Shepardus]

4 minutes ago, Maribo said:

The Diabolist from Supercharge is actually this, and it's an incredible monster. My favorite custom monster that I've seen in any Doom WAD/mod, in all honesty. I've spoken to Rayziik about it and I believe he's even recreated it in MBF21 in some capacity.

It's also in Minicharge, worth checking that out if you're not aware of it.

[Napsalm]

3 hours ago, Yasha said:

I had the idea of a "Sniper-Vile" rolling in my head for quite a bit.

 

Basically, an Arch-Vile, but with a different attack: a fully explosive blast that unlike an AV attack, still goes off even if you get out of the way. Like, if you go behind a pillar, it will just attack the spot it last saw you, but if you keep moving in open space, you can outrun the blast and even catch other demons in it. So, it's effectively a reverse AV--instead of taking cover, you want to stay on the move in open space.

 

I've put something akin to this in DeNapsed too. It's a good enemy!

 

Here's what I've got together so far - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WU56mDMeRauCcvYdSxMamGzKuukGDbNLac_BDoAn7o0/edit#gid=0

 

All MBF21 stuff

 

I stream development for this most days on my twitch :) Also running a project with these things on my discord, but I keep it fairly low key as the bestiary etc is still in development.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Napsalm

[Napsalm]

15 hours ago, RonnieJamesDiner said:

 

... I also messed around with a monster that, upon dying, channels a “vile ghost” that immediately launches into a single instance of the AV attack before disappearing. Seemed like a fun idea playing on the “dangerous when killed” mechanic, but, it never really went anywhere. ...

 

 

I absolutely love this.

[bofu]

Hot take, but I'm not a fan of Afrits myself. Most of the time, they're too tanky while also getting sent off to all corners of the map when hit by an attack.

 

I love the zombie enemies and wanted something a little bit at the high end of that spectrum without the rapid fire capabilities of the Chaingunner - more of an enemy that punishes you for letting it get close to you, not for simply existing within its field of vision. That's why I made the SSG zombie in my megawad. At a distance, he's barely any more dangerous than a Sergeant, but up close, he can easily ruin your day... but dodging his attack leaves him exposed and vulnerable.

 

I also would like to have low-tier flying enemies like the Gargoyle, as well as more melee-focused enemies.

[SupremeBioVizier]

I just put these dudes in a map I'm tinkering with.... I would make more quake type characters, the demon alien cybernetic premise is cool... I also have been thinking of a really annoying character that tags you and runs away, maybe steals things like that thief in A link to the past.

[Faceman2000]

The most commonly mentioned I see is the lack of a low-tier flying monster. Sandy Petersen himself said that if he felt the bestiary was lacking one, and added he would have them hang back and pelt the player from a distance. Now, you’ve already provided the community with some excellent sprites for this purpose with you Watcher, but I don’t know for certain that specific behavior has ever been implemented.

 

I know many people also bemoan the lack of a basic projectile monster in between the Imp and Hell Knight in health. I personally feel the default bestiary has a major lack of monsters with spread attacks, the Mancubus being the only example. There’s a lot of custom monsters that perform those though of course.

 

I’ve always thought an area denial enemy that spawns small burning fires under the player that stay around for a bit would be an interesting addition to bestiary and would fit right in amongst the current roster. It would particularly spice up fights with Revenants and/or Arch Viles in my opinion. I’ve considered utilizing your Hellion sprites for this purpose but haven’t yet.

 

There’s always a dearth of good Cybie/SpiderMomma-tier boss enemies. Your Behemoth quickly became one of my favorite custom enemies ever because it fills that niche so nicely.

 

Honestly, though, it’s hard to name unique behaviors that haven’t been done before because at this point, most things have. It’s just unfortunate that the majority of them are tied to sprite-recolors or rips from other games.

 

EDIT: I forgot! One of the most entertaining custom monsters I ever made was a scaled-down Revenant with 100, maybe 150 health, based on MetaDoom’s Fiend. It had a jump pack to close the gap between it and the player, and in place of the homing missile, it would launch a volley of micro missiles at the player after a brief wind up. It made for a good time, being really aggressive and great at chasing the player down without being absurdly fast like the Scythe marines, and posing a threat and demanding the player’s attention without being tanky.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Faceman2000

[TheRevenant212]

a banana peel that stays completely static until Doomguy walks over it, before promptly slipping, leading to an instant death.

Edited September 7, 2023 by TheRevenant212

[taufan99]

On 9/6/2023 at 8:48 AM, Faceman2000 said:

The most commonly mentioned I see is the lack of a low-tier flying monster. Sandy Petersen himself said that if he felt the bestiary was lacking one, and added he would have them hang back and pelt the player from a distance. Now, you’ve already provided the community with some excellent sprites for this purpose with you Watcher, but I don’t know for certain that specific behavior has ever been implemented.

Not sure if it might be what you want, but Doom Delta has the gargoyle as one of the new enemies as well.

[SealSpace]

Another stronger and worthier boss than both the Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind (preferably something completely new and different from them not made from pre-existing sprites too much akin to the Mother Demon from Doom 64) to complete the trio. 

 

And a worthier and better version of the Icon of Sin to serve as the actual final boss? 

[Faceman2000]

10 hours ago, taufan99 said:

Not sure if it might be what you want, but Doom Delta has the gargoyle as one of the new enemies as well.

Yeah! I'm a big fan of it's design too - especially since it uses a three projectile spread, which I've always thought was fun.

20 minutes ago, SealSpace said:

Another stronger and worthier boss than both the Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind (preferably something completely new and different from them not made from pre-existing sprites too much akin to the Mother Demon from Doom 64) to complete the trio. 

 

And a worthier and better version of the Icon of Sin to serve as the actual final boss? 

Echoing these thoughts, and I also feel like a mini-Icon of Sin would be a good addition too - a killable totem pole that spawns lower-tier monsters until defeated.

[SealSpace]

1 hour ago, Faceman2000 said:

Yeah! I'm a big fan of it's design too - especially since it uses a three projectile spread, which I've always thought was fun.

Echoing these thoughts, and I also feel like a mini-Icon of Sin would be a good addition too - a killable totem pole that spawns lower-tier monsters until defeated.

or more like make the Icon of the Sin the one supreme boss above them all as an entirely independent monster with its own attacks, behavior, and stats for classic Doom I/II and its subsequent map-packs like TNT or Plutonium before Doom 64.

 

something more closer to Brutal Doom's take on the Icon of Sin as a more completely fleshed-out boss. 

[SealSpace]

I think classic Doom II and TNT/Plutonium needs its own version and counterpart to the Mother Demon from D64. 

 

Like a "Mother Demon" slot on its own if you will. 

 

With the Icon of Sin as a whole new bigger and better boss with original attacks, behavior, stats, and what have you on top of that. Maybe even an "Icon of Sin" slot or tier could be warranted for something big and unique enough as such as that. 

[OniriA]

On 9/4/2023 at 8:37 AM, Amuscaria said:

What custom monsters do you think Doom would..

 

 

[Aurelius]

On 9/5/2023 at 1:37 PM, Maribo said:

The Diabolist from Supercharge is actually this, and it's an incredible monster. My favorite custom monster that I've seen in any Doom WAD/mod, in all honesty. I've spoken to Rayziik about it and I believe he's even recreated it in MBF21 in some capacity.

 

Agreed, Diabolist is one of faves as well.

 

It's indeed very possible to make one in MBF21, pretty much to the same effect as in Supercharge. I finished a prototype roughly two years ago, even after initially thinking it might not be possible. Testing it out in the latest DSDA-Doom, some weird stuff was happening, but it could just be that I didn't find the latest version (of the Diabolist). Here's a clip:

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

My first attempt had the flames follow the player even behind walls, but I opted to go back to the more classic approach where the flames are only spawned when there's a sightline.