Prboom+ system requirements? (Dicking around on old pc)

[invictius]

Recently bought a s478 motherboard that just happened to support pcie x16.  Unfortunately you can only use 2.0 cards.  Dropped the slowest cpu in for it that I had, celeron 1.7 williamette.  Prboom+ does 100+fps on entryway (640x480 opengl) and 8fps on dotw map 1 (with nvidia 7200gs).

So now I want to test it on pentium 3's, 2's etc.  But I don't know what the requirements are.  Sdl needs xp, so there's that.  But what opengl version?  I heard 1.4 from somewhere, same as zandronum?  I want to put this on a p3-700 and see what the results are.  Why, you ask?  Well, people drive the length of Russia on the trans-sib "highway" which is a dirt track, just for the fun of it.  People do all kinds of sado-masochistic things when it would have been easier to just sit home and drink beer. 

[dasho]

Seems like PrBoom+ 2.5.1.4 and below use SDL1, which might make Windows 98 viable as well.

[Redneckerz]

24 minutes ago, invictius said:

Recently bought a s478 motherboard that just happened to support pcie x16.  Unfortunately you can only use 2.0 cards.  Dropped the slowest cpu in for it that I had, celeron 1.7 williamette.  Prboom+ does 100+fps on entryway (640x480 opengl) and 8fps on dotw map 1 (with nvidia 7200gs).

So now I want to test it on pentium 3's, 2's etc.  But I don't know what the requirements are.  Sdl needs xp, so there's that.  But what opengl version?  I heard 1.4 from somewhere, same as zandronum?  I want to put this on a p3-700 and see what the results are.  Why, you ask?  Well, people drive the length of Russia on the trans-sib "highway" which is a dirt track, just for the fun of it.  People do all kinds of sado-masochistic things when it would have been easier to just sit home and drink beer. 

GLBoom-Plus has a OGL 2.0 and 1.3 renderpath as main and a OGL 1.1 renderpath as legacy. The latter should run on pretty much every GPU that has OpenGL 1.1 support - That includes the mid-90s Intergraph Realizm cards, from 1996-1997.

 

So TLDR:

GLBoom-Plus has 3 renderer modes:

• OpenGL 2.0. This is the Shader variant.
• OpenGL 1.3. This along with the Shader mode are the primary renderers.
• OpenGL 1.1. This is a compatibility mode.

 

Also try PrBoomX.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Redneckerz

[Classic SSG Enjoyer]

1 hour ago, Redneckerz said:

GLBoom-Plus has a OGL 2.0 and 1.3 renderpath as main and a OGL 1.1 renderpath as legacy. The latter should run on pretty much every GPU that has OpenGL 1.1 support - That includes the mid-90s Intergraph Realizm cards, from 1996-1997.

 

So TLDR:

GLBoom-Plus has 3 renderer modes:

• OpenGL 2.0. This is the Shader variant.
• OpenGL 1.3. This along with the Shader mode are the primary renderers.
• OpenGL 1.1. This is a compatibility mode.

 

Also try PrBoomX.

Dude, as DSDA-Doom is fork of PrB+, what are its system requirements ? Coz indexed light mode is a bit slower for my weak hardware 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Classic SSG Enjoyer

[Redneckerz]

Just now, Classic SSG Enjoyer said:

Dude, as DSDA-Doom is fork of PrB+, what are its system requirements ?

Its SDL2, no? So atleast that. It unifies the GLBoom renderer in its main executable, so unless @dsda-devcorrects me, the GL renderer should remain the same, atleast in terms of feature support.

[Classic SSG Enjoyer]

Just now, Redneckerz said:

Its SDL2, no? So atleast that. It unifies the GLBoom renderer in its main executable, so unless @dsda-devcorrects me, the GL renderer should remain the same, atleast in terms of feature support.

What opengl version is bare minimum to play DSDA-Doom 0.26.2 ?

[Redneckerz]

1 minute ago, Classic SSG Enjoyer said:

What opengl version is bare minimum to play DSDA-Doom 0.26.2 ?

Again this is assuming everything is as unchanged from PrB+, so then it would be:

• OpenGL 1.1 as a compatibility option.

[Classic SSG Enjoyer]

2 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

Again this is assuming everything is as unchanged from PrB+, so then it would be:

• OpenGL 1.1 as a compatibility option.

hmm, because i have some perf issues with opengl renderer that I mentioned about them in this post.

 

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/2683336

 

don't know how to fix this

[Redneckerz]

4 minutes ago, Classic SSG Enjoyer said:

hmm, because i have some perf issues with opengl renderer that I mentioned about them in this post.

 

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/2683336

 

don't know how to fix this

This is purely a driver related issue, i feel.

[Classic SSG Enjoyer]

17 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

This is purely a driver related issue, i feel.

All my drivers are updated man.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Classic SSG Enjoyer

[Redneckerz]

2 minutes ago, Classic SSG Enjoyer said:

All my drivers are updated man

Well you are best off shooting out a Github issue with detailed information as to why you get hickups - But it isn't uncommon on any system to get these.

Modern hardware has to interact with older API's and those older API's may not always play nice despite your system modern enough to run it. A somewhat modern example might be the original Crysis which has notoriously bad CPU scaling and doesn't take advantage of modern processors at all. A Pentium G3240 isn't very quick to begin with, and Intel's OGL record is, when it comes to GZDoom atleast, not always perfect. So it might be that DSDA also gets affected.

[Classic SSG Enjoyer]

2 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

Well you are best off shooting out a Github issue with detailed information as to why you get hickups - But it isn't uncommon on any system to get these.

Modern hardware has to interact with older API's and those older API's may not always play nice despite your system modern enough to run it. A somewhat modern example might be the original Crysis which has notoriously bad CPU scaling and doesn't take advantage of modern processors at all. A Pentium G3240 isn't very quick to begin with, and Intel's OGL record is, when it comes to GZDoom atleast, not always perfect. So it might be that DSDA also gets affected.

alright 👍

 

This issue doesn't happen with me on PrBoomX and PrBoom+ tbh, so definitely its the indexed light mode of DSDA-Doom which is not 100% optimized for weak hardware ig coz even my computer is a dung one

Edited September 9, 2023 by Classic SSG Enjoyer

[Redneckerz]

Just now, Classic SSG Enjoyer said:

alright 👍

 

This issue doesn't happen with me on PrBoomX and PrBoom+ tbh, so definitely its the indexed light mode of DSDA-Doom which is not 100% optimized for weak hardware.

If you are using that specific mode, it might be the case - I assumed a general case of DSDA-Doom running on OpenGL with the same settings as a GLBoom build would. Anything post PrBoom, such as that mode, might be different.

[Graf Zahl]

Thanks to only having the palette render mode you will pretty much require GL 3.x hardware with DSDA, unless you pick a version from before stripping down the renderer. On real GL 2 hardware the palette shader is simply too slow.

 

[ludicrous_peridot]

5 hours ago, invictius said:

People do all kinds of sado-masochistic things when it would have been easier to just sit home and drink beer. 

 

Then you could also try PRBOOM (GLBOOM) version 2.5.0 with a specific version of HXDos DOS extender (can be looked up with search engines). To my surprise this actually works, and saves you the hassle of installing Windows on the machine.  Of course this may not run the wads you are after.

[Classic SSG Enjoyer]

9 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

Thanks to only having the palette render mode you will pretty much require GL 3.x hardware with DSDA

Thanks sir

[invictius]

I'm having two problems.  You can't run prboom+ on xp (see error message) and you can't go higher than xp to solve the prerequisites issue if you want to run opengl under 2.0, because there's no such thing as an opengl 1.5/1.x card that will run on xp and above.  Only laptop igpu's.  This is what I get when I try to run prboom+, if I find the dll it wants it just complains about another one.  I wish there were a way to find out all prereq's a program needs.

[deathz0r]

I've successfully used PrBoom+ 2.5.1.3 and 2.5.1.4 on a Super Socket 7 system with Win98SE - GLBoom on 2.5.1.4 seems to be unstable even when using my Socket 370 motherboards, but 2.5.1.3 has no issues in that regard.

On 9/10/2023 at 12:44 AM, invictius said:

Recently bought a s478 motherboard that just happened to support pcie x16.  Unfortunately you can only use 2.0 cards.

There's nothing stopping you from using PCI cards, though 3D accelerator cards that use PCI are generally significantly harder to find and more expensive than AGP counterparts. Expect an average price of anywhere between 2x-5x the asking price of a PCI card that has an AGP equivalent, unless you're lucky.

6 hours ago, invictius said:

there's no such thing as an opengl 1.5/1.x card that will run on xp and above.  Only laptop igpu's.

Most Win2k drivers will work on XP, and several devices that only support OpenGL 1.x have drivers for 2k that can be found with enough internet scouring, so that statement is simply false.

On 9/10/2023 at 2:41 AM, Redneckerz said:

Its SDL2, no? So atleast that. It unifies the GLBoom renderer in its main executable, so unless @dsda-devcorrects me, the GL renderer should remain the same, atleast in terms of feature support.

There's work being done on the OpenGL renderer that puts the requirements as "2.0 but with NPOT support being mandatory", which basically leaves it to R500 cards on the Radeon side and I believe the Geforce 6 series. I'm not well-versed with Intel's IGPs to know what the minimum requirements are for NPOT support, and wackier stuff like VIA/S3's Chrome series (I have a few motherboards and thin clients with VIA DX9/GL2.0 IGPs) and Matrox's M-series cards (my M9138 has DX9/GL2.0 support, though documentation is difficult to find) would need to be tested when I get a chance in the next three decades.

Edited September 11, 2023 by deathz0r

[Redneckerz]

1 hour ago, deathz0r said:

There's work being done on the OpenGL renderer that puts the requirements as "2.0 but with NPOT support being mandatory", which basically leaves it to R500 cards on the Radeon side and I believe the Geforce 6 series. I'm not well-versed with Intel's IGPs to know what the minimum requirements are for NPOT support, and wackier stuff like VIA/S3's Chrome series (I have a few motherboards and thin clients with VIA DX9/GL2.0 IGPs) and Matrox's M-series cards (my M9138 has DX9/GL2.0 support, though documentation is difficult to find) would need to be tested when I get a chance in the next three decades.

I am vaguely reminded by a post that indeed said that non-power of two support was added to the renderer.  So i took some time to figure out what the lowest common denominators was. So that basically narrows it down to:

• AMD: Radeon R500 (So X1000)
• NVidia: Geforce 6 series
• Intel: since GMA X3000 series (GMA Series 3) and GMA Series 4 - https://www.intel.com/content/dam/develop/external/us/en/documents/intel-integrated-graphics-performance-developer-s-guide-v2-6-7-166010.pdf
• VIA: Chrome9 HC and higher - https://www.x.org/docs/via/OGPM_Chrome9 HC3_R100a_Part2_3D_Video.pdf
• Matrox: Parhelia has support - https://hothardware.com/reviews/matrox-parhelia-512-high-fidelity-graphics-preview

Perhaps this can be used for the readme for DSDA's OpenGL renderer that this is the minimal support and that OpenGL 1.1 and 1.3 are basically disabled. If you can confirm this then i can update the wiki for DSDA to reflect this.

[dsda-dev]

dsda-doom's minimum requirement is opengl 2

[Professor Hastig]

But does it work on real GL 2 hardware? What I remember from that era is that shaders were not really usable for complex fullscreen effects.

 

[Classic SSG Enjoyer]

2 hours ago, dsda-dev said:

dsda-doom's minimum requirement is opengl 2

thank you sir

[invictius]

11 hours ago, deathz0r said:

There's nothing stopping you from using PCI cards, though 3D accelerator cards that use PCI are generally significantly harder to find and more expensive than AGP counterparts. Expect an average price of anywhere between 2x-5x the asking price of a PCI card that has an AGP equivalent, unless you're lucky.

 

If I really want horrible performance I can just slap a 7200gs in there, right?  It's rated even slower that a gt 210.  Before I found out about the 2.0 card limit I intended to put a 1050 in there to see how an extreme bottleneck behaves.

 

11 hours ago, deathz0r said:

Most Win2k drivers will work on XP, and several devices that only support OpenGL 1.x have drivers for 2k that can be found with enough internet scouring, so that statement is simply false.

 

Ah yes, what I meant to say was later than xp.  From what I've read, vista straight up requires wddm drivers and direct x 9, which is why a radeon 9600 will work but not a 9200.  In all my googling I've not found any results for custom drivers for a geforce 4 or radeon 9200 (Or older) that say they will work on vista.  Nor have I seen any reports that you can just use xp drivers (And yes the card will of course display without drivers, but you won't be getting accelerated opengl)

[Classic SSG Enjoyer]

On 9/9/2023 at 10:40 PM, Redneckerz said:

Well you are best off shooting out a Github issue with detailed information as to why you get hickups - But it isn't uncommon on any system to get these.

Modern hardware has to interact with older API's and those older API's may not always play nice despite your system modern enough to run it. A somewhat modern example might be the original Crysis which has notoriously bad CPU scaling and doesn't take advantage of modern processors at all. A Pentium G3240 isn't very quick to begin with, and Intel's OGL record is, when it comes to GZDoom atleast, not always perfect. So it might be that DSDA also gets affected.

https://github.com/kraflab/dsda-doom/issues/417

 

I raised this issue here and the dev ignored it by saying this :

 

Quote

We don't track general open-ended topics like this on github.

 

I raised this issue even here on DW, still my issue intentionally ignored.

 

Fine, I will stick to PrBoomX.

[Redneckerz]

3 minutes ago, Classic SSG Enjoyer said:

https://github.com/kraflab/dsda-doom/issues/417

 

I raised this issue here and the dev ignored it by saying this :

 

 

I raised this issue even here on DW, still my issue intentionally ignored.

 

Fine, I will stick to PrBoomX.

then ill tag @dsda-dev and kindly request where this kind of feedback would instead be desired. 

[Classic SSG Enjoyer]

20 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

then ill tag @dsda-dev and kindly request where this kind of feedback would instead be desired. 

okay 👍

[Stroggman]

My rig is circa 2016, top of the line componenents and DSDA-DooM runs real nice

[Graf Zahl]

With all due respect but what do you expect? You don't list problem spots in maps that can be used for checking and you don't even specify the GPU you are using. I can only take a guess from "OpenGL 4.3" and the outcome is not pretty - the only hardware that's stuck with this specific version is some very low end old Intel HDs with rather poor performance where taking 60 fps for granted is simply not possible.

 

[Classic SSG Enjoyer]

45 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

With all due respect but what do you expect? You don't list problem spots in maps that can be used for checking and you don't even specify the GPU you are using. I can only take a guess from "OpenGL 4.3" and the outcome is not pretty - the only hardware that's stuck with this specific version is some very low end old Intel HDs with rather poor performance where taking 60 fps for granted is simply not possible.

 

Sir, as I told in my DW post, this problem happens in any map, irrespective it is Doom 2's Map 01, or even Nuts.wad. It happens randomly on any map tbh. 

 

Also, Intel HD Graphics is my Graphics processor.

 

Also, as I told here in this post, this problem doesn't happen with me on PrBoomX and PrBoom+. I get consistent 60 fps on both the source ports and I never game with any fps fluctuations or anything like this irrespective of the map I play.

[Graf Zahl]

43 minutes ago, Classic SSG Enjoyer said:

Also, Intel HD Graphics is my Graphics processor.

 

If that's what you have (i.e. without any number behind it) it may be the cause. Have you tried a DSDA version from before the switch to the palette shader? This is precisely the kind of hardware where I'd expect a non-trivial full scene effect shader (which is what the palette shader essentially is) to cause occasional hiccups.

 

One very annoying thing with Intel I experienced in the past is that if the frame rate goes below stable 60 it tends to go right down to 30 if vsync is on.

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Graf Zahl