I think I've just realized something about Doom's plot...

[Jannak]

It's mentioned that Doomguy was honorarily discharged and sent to Mars for refusing to follow orders to fire on civilians and then I've just realized something about why Earth was eventually invaded by Demons later on...I guess Demons really are attracted to all that Evil in the world and they hunger for it due to plenty of juicy blackened souls full of sin to feed on and the reason why Doomguy was able to fight them because he lacked the same Evil that blackened his soul that Demons hunger for which also explains why he's the only one that didn't get possessed either?

Edited September 12, 2023 by Jannak

[Tangra]

Are you sure about that? 

 

Spoiler

 

[Murdoch]

1. He wasn't discharged, "honorarily" (I think you meant honorably?) or otherwise. He was transferred.

2. Here's a picture of the last guy who thought too much about Doom's lore.

 

 

Just... don't my dude. Don't. id didn't think too much about it, and neither should anybody else. You are looking for something that simply doesn't exist. You good guy, them bad guys. Shoot them a lot. Repeat.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Murdoch

[kwc]

Neat, that does tie the premise together with the gameplay.
Don't let a dusty quote or dogmatic reductionism discourage you from enjoying doom for it's narrative qualities or from talking about it on a doom forum ;P
 

Edited September 12, 2023 by kwc

[Sonikkumania]

If he's a "Saint" why does he enjoy finding new weapons so much and mows down ex comrades (former humans) with ease :b

[Tangra]

27 minutes ago, kwc said:

Don't let a dusty quote or dogmatic reductionism discourage you from enjoying doom for it's narrative qualities or from talking about it on a doom forum ;P

 

Outside the obvious joke, the dusty quote still has a relevant point here, and the point is, id Software simply did not care about fleshing out a deep story, or pulling out any twists and turns in the "plot". If the OP's theory is even remotely close to what their intentions were, by now we would've known about it long before anyone would theorize it. Someone would have spilled the "hidden truth" by now. So until you can provide evidence, theories like this will remain nothing more than fan fiction. And you know what? There is nothing wrong with fan fiction, i think it's great. But you know what else? Making stuff up is not a realization about a story that's been established 30 years ago.

 

Also, "I'm trying to ruin someone's enjoyment of Doom"? You mean, by having an opinion? Or are you making stuff up too?

Edited September 12, 2023 by Tangra

[Thomased22]

20 minutes ago, kwc said:

Neat, that does tie the premise together with the gameplay.
Don't let a dusty quote or dogmatic reductionism discourage you from enjoying doom for it's narrative qualities or from talking about it on a doom forum ;P
 

 

Absolutely! Can't get behind that John Carmack quote, I've always had a distain for that attitude. DOOM has a shitton of potential for narrative badassery. And TBH I don't think the new games really see that potential through. HOWEVER, they are still better off for the narrative they have. If you like things left up for interpretation and theorization, Doom 2016 does an amazing job of that. If you like cool cutscenes and a sense of finality and problems being solved, Eternal has a pretty good story. And the games would be worse off without them.

I understand why the story wasn't fleshed out, it was a matter of the times. But that's outdated af. Even later ID games would start creeping in more narrative and storytelling like Quake 2 and whatnot.
 

1 minute ago, Tangra said:

 

Outside the obvious joke, the dusty quote still has a relevant point here, and the point is, id Software simply did not care about fleshing out a deep story, or pulling out any twists and turns in the "plot". If the OP's theory is even remotely close to what their intentions were, by now we would've known about it long before anyone would theorize it. Someone would have spilled the "hidden truth" by now. So until you can provide evidence, theories like this will remain nothing more than fan fiction. And you know what? There is nothing wrong with fan fiction, i think it's great. But you know what else? Making stuff up is not a realization about a story that's been established 30 years ago.

 

Also, "I'm trying to ruin someone's enjoyment of Doom"? You mean, by having an opinion? Or you're making stuff up too?

 

I don't agree with this but I see why you came to that conclusion. OP should have phrased this more like "my interpretation" or "a series of logical but fannon adjacent conclusions that makes the story narratively stronger". Because that's clearly what this is. And OP isn't wrong for it. The way you've acted about this comes off as kind of douchey. Was any of this really necessary? One of the best qualities of a vague/inconclusive story like this is that it's open to interpretation. And that's good. Carmack's word is not gospel. His word as the lead programmer and software engineer for the engine doesn't suddenly mean that DOOM is at it's best when there's no story at all. I'd imagine that Adrien Carmack ironically enough as the artist might be the best authority for the narrative of the game. Given that this was before game designers learnt that weaving story into gameplay was most satisfying for the medium of video games.

 

No need to be a hardass is all I'm saying really. 

[Tangra]

2 minutes ago, Thomased22 said:

OP should have phrased this more like "my interpretation" or "a series of logical but fannon adjacent conclusions that makes the story narratively stronger".

 

I agree 100% with that.

 

About the rest of your post... i don't know how respond to that, seriously. Posting the dusty Carmack quote, that everyone knows, as a harmless joke, but also to make a simple and very self-explanatory point as to why i think the theory doesn't hold up, is not douchey at all. Or are you that easily offended, really? You can disagree with me, and i can respect that, but you don't need to portray me as a douche. You don't know me after all, and words can easily be misinterpreted over the internet. 

 

If you want to talk douchey, how about a post that indirectly speculates that i've tried to ruin someone's enjoyment of Doom, when in reality, that is the last thing i'd ever want to do on this platform. If you have a problem with someone post, you address it directly, and we can reach an understanding. Just like you did, like an adult would do. I don't have time or desire to explain myself to children who can't take a simple joke... but i did it anyway and that was a mistake on my part, i admit.

[kwc]

@Tangra 
Hey man, sorry for hurting your feelings with my post. You can DM me if you wanna talk it out instead of derailing the thread.

[Pechudin]

The Carmack quote is something he later disagreed with, no?

[Thomased22]

40 minutes ago, Tangra said:

 

I agree 100% with that.

 

About the rest of your post... i don't know how respond to that, seriously. Posting the dusty Carmack quote, that everyone knows, as a harmless joke, but also to make a simple and very self-explanatory point as to why i think the theory doesn't hold up, is not douchey at all. Or are you that easily offended, really? You can disagree with me, and i can respect that, but you don't need to portray me as a douche. You don't know me after all, and words can easily be misinterpreted over the internet. 

 

I'll give you credit where credit is deserved, that's why I said "it comes off as douchey". As in, I could see it being taken that way by others. You're right about me not knowing you and about things being easily misinterpreted. As that was what spawned my reaction. Idk, even in hindsight a lot of what was said came off as unnecesary and defensive or other such flavors of passive aggressiveness. But I've unintentionally presented myself that way before so I understand that.

The Carmack Quote following "Are you sure about that" with no elaboration didn't seem too jokey though. Especially after the unrelated second post from another person unironically echoing the idea. And the seeming doubling down. To take what responsibility there is to be taken I felt the need to come to the aid of the OP who outside of a so-so name for the topic was acting in good faith and enjoying DOOM in a way I wish I could share with many others. As at that particular point in time it looked like an oncoming avalanche of wannabe traditionalists. Who don't know the difference between traditionalism and an undeveloped medium.

Thankfully, I was wrong it seems. And I was just making a rushed emotional reaction to a lack of clarity. 

I agree with KWC that we should let the thread play out, hopefully without the need to point out the haha obvious "video game story funny quote". I think the value of that topic here has already run it's course here lol.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Thomased22

[DNSKILL5]

He was transferred (and likely demoted) to a less desirable post to finish out his career, then shit hits the fan. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but turns out he was the right person for the job in the end, only he didn't know that when he came home assuming all was well and a job well done... that hell followed, now he's fuckin' PISSED, now it's personal, and the rest is history.

 

Of course, this is what I see when thinking of classic Doom. IDGAF what Doom 2016 or Eternal did to try and tie everything together into one thing. To me, Doomguy is the real deal, Doom Slayer is just another iteration of the same thing, but it will never be THE Doomguy I grew up with.

 

Also... Carmack is right, at least when it came to FPS design for Quake and prior, and other genres too really if you really think about it. Doom's story matters very little. It isn't what everyone remembers the most from the game, it likely isn't why so many people are still mapping and modding the game. Something tells me the gameplay, the art, the sound, etc. played a much bigger part than a few paragraphs of text in a manual only a few people actually read first before playing the game. The real story is more what you see between episodes at the end of each episode, that's what gets you pumped to play more, but even then it's about 1-2 paragraphs at most and if you couldn't read it for whatever reason, you're still getting the gameplay experience and the levels tell stories themselves through design.

Edited September 12, 2023 by CAM-7EA

[cybdmn]

Today media is flooded with prequels, added lore, trying more or less to make it canon. For me that destroys a lot of the magic. For example, what made Alien such a good movie was the lack of it's presence, telling a back story, pulling the xenomorph into the light make it less appealing to me.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

How is the story in DOOM anything like the story in a porn movie anyway

[Thomased22]

19 minutes ago, cybdmn said:

Today media is flooded with prequels, added lore, trying more or less to make it canon. For me that destroys a lot of the magic. For example, what made Alien such a good movie was the lack of it's presence, telling a back story, pulling the xenomorph into the light make it less appealing to me.

I agree that media often does this sort of thing without proper thought, direction, or sense. But I do not conflate the failures of AAA slop of any kind to a base concept such as "adding context/lore/whatever you wanna call it" to a narrative. You don't need to add much if you wanted to have a take on classic doom that more openly explores the narrative. And I do mean the narrative, people and corporation hyperfixate on the world a lot. When characters and a narrative are almost always more important almost always undercooked. 

And there's multiple means to going about it. You could do what DOOM 3 did, and add optional logs to read (I like reading), you could go the half life rout and show the narrative rather than tell too. I think you could, if you handled it with care, tell a story with minor incidents of (blasphemy incoming) doomguy dialogue. The character has transcended his original role as a self insert long ago. Pretty much as soon as you get to doom 2's expansions really. Let alone DOOM 64. You could give him dialogue. I don't think anyone would care for an over the top doom guy, the general distaste for brutal doom's loud take on the character gives me that impression at least. Keep him generally reserved and fend off the urge for marvel-esque quips during fights (I wouldn't mind the very occasional and tactfully placed quirky 80s action one liners though I won't lie, but that might just be me) and I don't think people would exactly be offended.

Point being that you can expand on a narrative without killing the old world, story, and narrative (like nu doom did in favor of it's own slightly different narrative) or without giving us every waking moment of doomguy and every detail about hell we could ever *think* we want, but we don't actually want.

Giving people what they want isn't always the right play, and never going past the point you are asked for is also almost always a misplay. A universe with a DOOM reboot instead of 2016 that tried to be uber faithful would inevitably catch flack because when you actively try to do something like that the fans are given a clear path to complain and criticize. One that's almost always more of a struggle for creatives than if the main complaint is that it's different from the source material.

You think you want a faithful doom reboot, but inevitably most people would be too caught up in any potential flaws with the story/narrative/world that you wouldn't actually enjoy it. Unless it was nigh perfect, and Bethesda ID were wise to not bet on that. That would have been a bigheaded move. So something different while inevitably disappointing to plenty is better than making certain people angry and alienating others based off of "legacy fear". As in the fear of something because people don't feel familiar enough with what came before. Positioning 2016 as a sort of reboot when it really wasn't was probably a crazy smart move for luring casuals in. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Thomased22

[baja blast rd.]

free undertitle 

 

Quote

juicy blackened soul full of sin

 

[Osmosis Bones]

1 hour ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

How is the story in DOOM anything like the story in a porn movie anyway

clearly you haven't seen the X parody "Balls-Deep in the Dame"

[Murdoch]

1 hour ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

How is the story in DOOM anything like the story in a porn movie anyway

 

Not one I want to watch... or even consider the possibility of...

[Thomased22]

1 hour ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

How is the story in DOOM anything like the story in a porn movie anyway

How did one and a half people read this question wrong? He's clearly asking "how is this comparable to a porno's story". Not "how is doom's story the same as a porno's story" lmao.

[OliveTree]

The idea that earth is a corrupt place falling to the evils that the doom marine did not is incredibly compatible with the explicit story in doom. It is true in the sense that the military on earth was perpetrating an evil the doom marine did not abide by, and it also implies the uac itself is evil, which is probably true. It's a legitimately great addition to one's understanding of the story. I'd like to take this moment to point you to @ShallowB's comment on my "The story in the original doom is honestly really interesting" thread:

 

 

quote: "I always found Doomguy's backstory as a guy demoted for refusing to fire on civilians interesting.  It's like half a sentence, but it says so much about the world! Clearly there is a lot of unrest back on Earth.  The military is stepping in, often with lethal force, to put a stop to them.  We know based on Doomguy's reaction that this is an unjust misuse of force, so we know these aren't gang wars or riots or anything, but more likely protests of some kind.  We know the military will punish violent insubordination, but not with jail time or discharge, which means the military is probably full of violent, unhinged, barely-controlled misanthropes.  The military has a very close connection with powerful corporations like the UAC, possibly to the point of being the very same entity."

 

I think it's brilliant and it is well informed by ur hell on earth related observation.

 

also

 

"story in a game is like story in a porn movie" is a fine thing for the guy who spurred on the creation of doom 3 to say, smh my head

[OliveTree]

4 minutes ago, Thomased22 said:

How did one and a half people read this question wrong? He's clearly asking "how is this comparable to a porno's story". Not "how is doom's story the same as a porno's story" lmao.

i understood what u meant until i read it carefully. the more i attend to the words the less clear the distinction between those two questions is

[Maximum Matt]

1 hour ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

How is the story in DOOM anything like the story in a porn movie anyway

"I have come to clean ze nukage pool...."

[Thomased22]

8 minutes ago, OliveTree said:

i understood what u meant until i read it carefully. the more i attend to the words the less clear the distinction between those two questions is

I felt the same posting it tbh. You get the vague idea though lol.

[OliveTree]

6 minutes ago, Maximum Matt said:

"I have come to clean ze nukage pool...."

[Thomased22]

33 minutes ago, OliveTree said:

The idea that earth is a corrupt place falling to the evils that the doom marine did not is incredibly compatible with the explicit story in doom. It is true in the sense that the military on earth was perpetrating an evil the doom marine did not abide by, and it also implies the uac itself is evil, which is probably true. It's a legitimately great addition to one's understanding of the story. I'd like to take this moment to point you to @ShallowB's comment on my "The story in the original doom is honestly really interesting" thread:

 

Fire thread btw.

[OliveTree]

45 minutes ago, Thomased22 said:

 

Fire thread btw.

thanks lego yoda <3

Edited September 12, 2023 by OliveTree

[Naarok0fkor]

There`s plot in Doom???

[OniriA]

Why is there so much text in this thread?

 

Have a beer, order a shawarma pizza and just shoot the motherfuckers man.

 

Here's your story.

[Jayextee]

himbst just a lil guy loves his bunny

[dasho]

You can equip scuba gear, dive into a kiddie pool, insist that it is incredibly deep, but at the end of the day it just isn't. I think that's the fundamental nature of these conversations. If scuba diving in such circumstances is fun for you, by all means go ahead, but don't knock others for not seeing the point.

Edited September 12, 2023 by dasho