[V. HOT TAKE] Bunnyhopping Killed the Arena FPS

[act]

Look I really hate to say it myself. Bunnyhopping is a feature that a lot of people enjoy in the whole "Retro FPS" genre, but I personally think that it's been a major, major, major detriment to the overall wellbeing and enjoyability of arena first-person shooters - at least in their multiplayer.

 

I seen a well-structured critique of "fast" first person shooters, at least in the context of multiplayer, on YouTube the other day. That, mixed with a retrospective review of Quake 3 Arena that sought out to why the arena FPS died out, made me realize that sadly arena FPS games are more harmed by bunnyhopping then benefitted.

 

Bunnyhopping accidentally took away from the game. Alright, so uh, imagine you're playing Quake - the original - and you can't bunnyhop. Because of that, there's a myroid of different strategies you can try. You can try to camp, take players off-guard. And from that camping strategy you can hunker down a well-defensible area, or act like a loaded trap. Alternatively you can almost breach-and-clear rooms, because of the slower movement speed. Wait at chokepoints and listen for players, then lob grenades and nails into a room. This obviously doesn't include the obvious running around the map, albiet at a slower speed.

 

In a world with bunnyhopping - the real world - however, things are much different. You basically need to hop around at lightspeed, as otherwise you're just beaten out by those who do. What this creates is a gameplay loop that's almost comparable to an on-rails shooter, except you can say you're skilled for playing it. This gameplay loop is certainly not sustainable, and is why a lot of arena shooters have died out rapidly, while their spiritual successors - such as Counter-Strike - continue to be played to this day.

 

If anyone wants to do a little experiment where they play Quake or whatever without bunnyhopping, then feel free. I'd love to see what people think and what changed.

[TasAcri]

I remember playing Quake III against a friend for the first time (who was flexing because he could "destroy" bots in single player) and after the first few times i killed him he quits because he thought me bunnyhopping was "messing up his aim" and that was not fair and even straight up cheating.

[dasho]

2 hours ago, act said:

What this creates is a gameplay loop that's almost comparable to an on-rails shooter, except you can say you're skilled for playing it

 

Have you ever played one of these games, or is this something YouTube said? I can't think of a less accurate description for arena deathmatch gameplay.

[riktoi]

3 hours ago, act said:

In a world with bunnyhopping - the real world - however, things are much different. You basically need to hop around at lightspeed, as otherwise you're just beaten out by those who do. What this creates is a gameplay loop that's almost comparable to an on-rails shooter, except you can say you're skilled for playing it. This gameplay loop is certainly not sustainable, and is why a lot of arena shooters have died out rapidly, while their spiritual successors - such as Counter-Strike - continue to be played to this day.

 

What makes this any different from a situation where the opposing player is much better at aiming and predicting than you are? Movement is just as important as aiming in Arena FPS. You can be good at Counter-Strike without mastering its movement, and getting a dopamine hit is easier as in most scenarios you still have the chance to kill an opponent even if you can't aim. In most Arena FPS, where you have so many variables (health, armor, weapons, ammo, positioning) such random hits rarely ever lead to kills. You will be absolutely destroyed by someone better than you. This is why Arena FPS are dying; it is simply not an accessible genre and requires you to work to get to any level where you can consider yourself to be having fun.

[Azuris]

Arena Shooters aren't really dead, just certain Modes got very popular (and transformed into own Games) and service Stuff.

As you said, Counter Strike, Overwatch and Fortnite are nothing else than evolved and specialised Modes (last man Standing, King of the Hill, Onslaught etc).

 

Bunny Hopping just doesn't fits those Modes and especially not Controllers.

 

Also, you can be successful in Quake online without Bunny Hoping all the Time.

 

I am too dumb to do it all the Time but i am also often enough between in the upper Half when playing.

 

[Jayextee]

It's funny because you mention camping and sniping as a viable alternative strategy and overreliance on those really did kill multiplayer FPS for me.

[InfernalGrape]

Quake 1 Remaster's deathmatch feels "nerfed" if you come from QuakeWorld, but I don't remember how it was in original Quake.

Quake 2 Remaster, though, I feel like bhop is easier there than it was in original (?).

 

Anyway, don't forget that UT'99 won the hearts of many players and it's totally different.

 

11 minutes ago, riktoi said:

This is why Arena FPS are dying; it is simply not an accessible genre and requires you to work to get to any level where you can consider yourself to be having fun.

 

Why fighting games seem to be okay nowadays though? Is it because huge sponsorship Street Fighter and Tekken have? 

Edited September 16, 2023 by InfernalGrape

[OliveTree]

I'm not sure I understand what the negative ramifications of "being expected to bunny hop" are, per your post

[Jayextee]

22 minutes ago, InfernalGrape said:

Why fighting games seem to be okay nowadays though?

There is, and has been for a few years now, a discourse about fighting games and 'motion inputs' that draws a parallel to the commentary OP has about bunny-hopping; especially that they provide a 'gate' of sorts that prevents new players from enjoying them. There have been some efforts to address it as an issue with more 'accessible' titles (like the notable but painfully dull Fantasy Strike) but for some reason the motion-based fighters still rule the crop. Perhaps some gameplay elements, be they to a player's liking or otherwise, really do end up defining a genre.

[Dreemurr Deceevurr]

fortnite and titanfall ruined a generation of fps players

[Mr Masker]

2 minutes ago, Dreemurr Deceevurr said:

fortnite and titanfall ruined a generation of fps players

Popular game bad :(

My game good :)

 

(I've never played Fortnite but Titanfall 2 is very good, I just wanted you to elaborate a bit.)

Edited September 16, 2023 by Mr Masker

[Mr. Freeze]

Skill expectations have zero to do with it and this is an Act Man-tier take. Fighting games take a ton of skill to "git gud" at, so do Soulsbourne games, so does Call of Duty, so does CSGO at any rank outside of GN, so do MOBAs etc etc. Arena shooters fell off because they're a fad from the 90's, if anything. 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Mr. Freeze

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

I think bunnyhopping has very little to do with anything at all. It's simply part of the game, just like ADS or going prone in COD. It isn't even a hard skill to learn. Bunnyhopping efficiently on a controller isn't much fun, so it's not going to be a part of most modern cross-platform games anyway. Bunnyhopping has nothing to do with a "gameplay loop", it's a simple part of the game. In no way is Quake comparable in any way to an on the rails shooter.

 

What killed the arena FPS was one thing: time. As games (and mainstream gamers) started gravitating towards new and fancy realistic graphics, gameplay started to become more "realistic" as well. Which means it got slower. Now, with popular games like Fortnite, I think that trend has kind of died down, and the fact that there hasn't been some mind-blowing leap in graphics technology (regardless of what Sony says) means that people aren't as glued to graphics as a selling point anymore. Counter-Strike was a "realistic game" from the get-go, it didn't suffer when this phase happened. All it needed was some updating, and the fact that the game is owned by Valve, who manages the largest PC game store/launcher in history, certainly helped it in terms of sustainability.

 

I've played maybe 50 matches in Fortnite to see what the fuss was about, and I can tell you that the mechanics in Fortnite are much harder to learn and perform effectively than anything in Quake, including bunnyhopping. If Epic decided to make a new arena shooter Quake clone, but market it as well as Fortnite to get people hooked, I imagine it would perform pretty well. But it's an old fad, and that's not going to happen. There are many subgenres of games that have effectively died out simply due to time, the arena shooter is just one of them.

Edited September 16, 2023 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[OliveTree]

3 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

Bunnyhopping efficiently on a controller isn't much fun

this is actually something i liked about Dusk including an auto-bunny hop function

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

1 minute ago, OliveTree said:

this is actually something i liked about Dusk including an auto-bunny hop function

I really like how Dusk was updated over time to be more accessible to controllers in general, with the auto-hop, the weapon wheel, etc.

[ChocolateFitz]

4 hours ago, act said:

Look I really hate to say it myself. Bunnyhopping is a feature that a lot of people enjoy in the whole "Retro FPS" genre, but I personally think that it's been a major, major, major detriment to the overall wellbeing and enjoyability of arena first-person shooters - at least in their multiplayer.

 

I seen a well-structured critique of "fast" first person shooters, at least in the context of multiplayer, on YouTube the other day. That, mixed with a retrospective review of Quake 3 Arena that sought out to why the arena FPS died out, made me realize that sadly arena FPS games are more harmed by bunnyhopping then benefitted.

 

Bunnyhopping accidentally took away from the game. Alright, so uh, imagine you're playing Quake - the original - and you can't bunnyhop. Because of that, there's a myroid of different strategies you can try. You can try to camp, take players off-guard. And from that camping strategy you can hunker down a well-defensible area, or act like a loaded trap. Alternatively you can almost breach-and-clear rooms, because of the slower movement speed. Wait at chokepoints and listen for players, then lob grenades and nails into a room. This obviously doesn't include the obvious running around the map, albiet at a slower speed.

 

In a world with bunnyhopping - the real world - however, things are much different. You basically need to hop around at lightspeed, as otherwise you're just beaten out by those who do. What this creates is a gameplay loop that's almost comparable to an on-rails shooter, except you can say you're skilled for playing it. This gameplay loop is certainly not sustainable, and is why a lot of arena shooters have died out rapidly, while their spiritual successors - such as Counter-Strike - continue to be played to this day.

 

If anyone wants to do a little experiment where they play Quake or whatever without bunnyhopping, then feel free. I'd love to see what people think and what changed.

I understand where you come from, but sincerely I believe bunnyhopping and movement options for fast-paced arena shooters makes them more fun. Bunnyhopping is also not going to save you if you have good aim because a few rails or shotgun blasts, or even well placed automatic guns fire can stop anyone dead on their tracks. I've seen people kill a lot of other players without doing much bunnyhopping and whatnot because they still had good positioning, awareness and well developed aim, so I can't really see the point on the third paragraph, except for the fact that it *has* made rocketing people easier, but that's just the reward that comes from training a lot with one weapon and a skill you wanted to develop.
 

28 minutes ago, Dreemurr Deceevurr said:

fortnite and titanfall ruined a generation of fps players

No, it's just a sidegraded evolution to the genre. This is just an elitist argument. I say so as a Titanfall 2 and Quake player. Both are extremely good at what they do in being movement shooters and are infinitely fun.

[OliveTree]

Just now, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

I really like how Dusk was updated over time to be more accessible to controllers in general, with the auto-hop, the weapon wheel, etc.

Dusk overall is pretty good when it comes to accessibility, which feels right when a lot of that stuff is added to source ports and stuff for older shooters, but as a newer title imitating those it's not a given that those options would be there. Ironically (since the reason we add that stuff to source ports is a reflection of newer standards, which somehow are only sometimes met by newer titles....idk whatever lol)

 

yknow per that honestly id be curious to see something like the auto hop incorporated into the quake remasters if they arent already.

[MFG38]

You make an interesting point, but I'd argue it wasn't bunnyhopping that killed the arena FPS - rather, it was just the birth of a new, arguably more tactical genre of competitive FPS with the likes of Counter-Strike. The formula that they introduced was arguably more accessible on a lot of levels, and players of different skill levels were on more equal footing due to the lower skill ceiling. That's my theory anyway.

[Azuris]

38 minutes ago, Jayextee said:

There is, and has been for a few years now, a discourse about fighting games and 'motion inputs' that draws a parallel to the commentary OP has about bunny-hopping; especially that they provide a 'gate' of sorts that prevents new players from enjoying them. There have been some efforts to address it as an issue with more 'accessible' titles (like the notable but painfully dull Fantasy Strike) but for some reason the motion-based fighters still rule the crop. Perhaps some gameplay elements, be they to a player's liking or otherwise, really do end up defining a genre.

 

That is a pretty dumb Discussion, it is as saying because the NBA is so professional, i can't enjoy playing Basketball with others.

I am very bad in nearly every online Game, especially Starcraft, but i have fun playing it against the CPU or together with Friends against the CPU.
I also suck in Doom, but i can causally join something like Zdaemon Sessions and have some fun.
And as described, something in Quake (3) matches my Brain and i can at least be somewhere competing.

 

In the End becoming a Pro in a Game is somewhere between having fun in the first Place with the Game, training and having a Talent for it.
You can't force others to come to your Level, only because you very want to be also "good" in that Game.

So train or stay with other Amateurs (nothing wrong about it, 99% of the People do it).

 

Btw. was looking up my Archivements to see what Steam "says" about my "Succsess",

guess i can be proud of that one haha, only played 63 Minutes of Quake Live:

[Noiser]

You have a good point regarding the inacessibility of bunnyhopping. That said... I just want to note that camping and sniping should not be a viable strategy in Arena shooters. The whole point is to be against that to incentivize pro-active movement.
 

35 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

I think bunnyhopping has very little to do with anything at all. It's simply part of the game

It is a bug, turned into game mechanic. Essentially a movement hack.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Noiser

[D4NUK1]

I had like 100 hours on QC and maybe 60 in QL and you point would be more valid if there was not a way to prevent the air speed, but there's a few way.

 

-Bait the players into a jump pad or air platform and while he jumping make him fly with the lighting gun.

 

-pre aim where he will land (on a corner better) to get a rocket on his feet to make him stay on the same place, bonus points if you spam two or three rockets and they all hit.

 

-if he low on health and armour and it's rotating to get health, a good railgun preaimed there would be better.

 

For me the thing's that make win on AFPS it's more the map knologe and player's decisions making, not every fight need to end in a frag, camp it's a valid strategy if you know something will come for a specific stuff, and yeah while bunny jump it's great for the speed boost, at least it's getting easier on newer games (QC have Auto BH now if you get the spacebar holded, yeah it's not the same as the real BH but still the difference it's pretty minimal)

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

16 minutes ago, Noiser said:

It is a bug, turned into game mechanic. Essentially a movement hack.

For Quake, yeah pretty much, although I'm not sure I'd call it a bug as much as an oversight in terms of gameplay. But later on in the series, and in other arena FPS games, it was simply an intended central mechanic.

[Individualised]

Arena FPSes died because the mainstream taste in multiplayer FPS gameplay changed. People prefer more "stylised" types of gameplay now rather than just simple deathmatch/team deathmatch. You can thank Counter Strike 1 for that. Basically what @TheMagicMushroomMan said above, but because I have the attention span of a lost soul I only read his reply after I posted mine.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Individualised

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

36 minutes ago, Azuris said:

That is a pretty dumb Discussion, it is as saying because the NBA is so professional, i can't enjoy playing Basketball with others.

I really understand what you're saying, and I agree the discussion about accessibility in fighting games is pretty dumb, but I kind of understand what people mean. Fighting games specifically just have a really strong barrier before you can really stand any chance. If I play basketball with some random people, I can still give them a game because it's an easily understood game. But if I join a match online in a fighting game, I just instantly get slaughtered with moves I cannot even comprehend. But I don't think the genre should change just because I don't get it. I'm a big Souls fan, and I don't think From should include an easy mode in their games. I think people should learn how to play them or play something else. It's a matter of time and effort. I know that I could learn how to play fighting games, but I just don't care to. Not everything has to be accessible to all skill levels. Different people are good at different kinds of games, accessibility is good until it dumbs down the product for everyone else. A good middle ground is a training/tutorial mode, which I think would be perfectly fine in a Souls game - teach people how to play, but don't do something that messes up the game for everyone else.

[banjiepixel]

Timesplitters 2 is the best arena FPS and it has no jumping at all.

 

And arena FPS games generally suffer from similar problems as fighting games, most people are not into pure skill competition and need distractions like team gameplay ja shop/money mechanics to keep them engaged. There has been also several waves of people expecting games to be more realistic and grounded that basically did has hurt arena FPS genre because they lean much heavily to arcadey side of things. Actual arcade style games are much more rare these days in general with mostly indie developers keeping things alive.

 

State of modern day Unreal Tournament is pretty similar to modern day state of Ridge Racer or NFL Blitz. Fighting games is one of only arcade based game genres that has actually survived and are still being made by big companies.

[Dweller Dark]

I've only really played Quake 2 Remaster MP modes in terms of arena shooters, but I don't think you need to bunnyhop to be successful at them. I'm generally awful at aiming in FPS games, singleplayer or otherwise, but there were times that I nearly won a round in Quake 2 MP and I never felt like I needed to bunnyhop to succeed.

 

I think what "killed" arena shooters is the fact that trends are always changing and people tend to follow whatever the next trend is until the next one comes along and so on. Many people get tired of thing, new thing comes along and they like it, then they get tired again and want to move on.

[xScavengerWolfx]

Bunny hopping is fine and dandy in single player but my issue is the halo jumping bullshit. Halo jumping and tea bagging is so cancerous now in this gen of fps games.

 

To me what i really think killed the arena shooter is the whole trend of "we need battle royal in gaming because it's the hot new thing" and also the micro transactions for gaming helped put the nails in the coffin for it as well.

[Amiga Angel]

On 9/16/2023 at 11:03 AM, act said:

Look I really hate to say it myself. Bunnyhopping is a feature that a lot of people enjoy in the whole "Retro FPS" genre, but I personally think that it's been a major, major, major detriment to the overall wellbeing and enjoyability of arena first-person shooters - at least in their multiplayer.

 

I seen a well-structured critique of "fast" first person shooters, at least in the context of multiplayer, on YouTube the other day. That, mixed with a retrospective review of Quake 3 Arena that sought out to why the arena FPS died out, made me realize that sadly arena FPS games are more harmed by bunnyhopping then benefitted.

 

Bunnyhopping accidentally took away from the game. Alright, so uh, imagine you're playing Quake - the original - and you can't bunnyhop. Because of that, there's a myroid of different strategies you can try. You can try to camp, take players off-guard. And from that camping strategy you can hunker down a well-defensible area, or act like a loaded trap. Alternatively you can almost breach-and-clear rooms, because of the slower movement speed. Wait at chokepoints and listen for players, then lob grenades and nails into a room. This obviously doesn't include the obvious running around the map, albiet at a slower speed.

 

In a world with bunnyhopping - the real world - however, things are much different. You basically need to hop around at lightspeed, as otherwise you're just beaten out by those who do. What this creates is a gameplay loop that's almost comparable to an on-rails shooter, except you can say you're skilled for playing it. This gameplay loop is certainly not sustainable, and is why a lot of arena shooters have died out rapidly, while their spiritual successors - such as Counter-Strike - continue to be played to this day.

 

If anyone wants to do a little experiment where they play Quake or whatever without bunnyhopping, then feel free. I'd love to see what people think and what changed.

I prefer doom multiplayer

Edited September 17, 2023 by Amiga Angel
doom

[riktoi]

4 hours ago, InfernalGrape said:

Why fighting games seem to be okay nowadays though? Is it because huge sponsorship Street Fighter and Tekken have? 

 

I'm not really someone who plays those sort of games, but I do have friends who do. My guess would be the social aspect being a huge part of the genre's longevity.

[gibfrag]

Skill issue