Since the N64 could handle the DOOM engine so well, could it also handle Build?

[TasAcri]

There is no doubt DOOM 64 is the most advanced DOOM game in the 90's. When all other consoles had to do compromises and simplifications with their ports, the N64 got completely new levels that were even more complex and detailed then the PC originals. And on top of that, the game runs smoother than any other console DOOM and also boasts numerous visual improvements with the lighting and colors.

 

So how come the N64 handles this game so well? I'm not an expert but i would bet it's the CPU. The N64 has a very impressive CPU for the time, clocked at 94mhz as opposed to the PS1/Saturn that are clocked at 33 Mhz or less. This is important because DOOM was made before 3D took over and it's mostly a CPU bound game that doesn't make use of 3D hardware as much. I'm not saying the console ports don't make use of 3D hardware, the PS1 does and that's why it manages to run smooth enough (since the CPU is too slow), unlike the Saturn version. And surely DOOM 64 also does make some use of it for all it's extra effects. But it's still a DOOM engine game and i think it benefits a lot more from the N64's powerful CPU and not as much from it's 3D capabilities.

 

The same should also apply to Duke Nukem 3D, another game before 3D acceleration took over. Not the case with Duke Nukem 64 though. It seems like the N64 version uses a new 3D engine instead of build, making it your average looking/performing N64 3D game. But why? I can see why the Saturn version uses a new engine (Slave) since it's slow CPUs couldn't handle build in any way. And the developers managed to make an extremely good 3D engine for it, while the engine on the N64 port is pretty average.

 

So why didn't they make a similar game to DOOM 64, using the original build engine? I'm sure the N64 CPU could easily handle it. Why make a 3D engine instead? Did they afraid it would look out of date because you can't look up/down without distorting the image? Personally, i would take a smooth 30fps port of Duke Nukem 3D with similar enchantments to DOOM 64 over a "true" 3D version that doesn't run as well even on a smaller window.

TLDR: The N64 has a powerful CPU and a not so powerful 3D hardware. DOOM and Duke Nukem 3D are CPU bound games so they could benefit from this. DOOM 64 does because it uses the DOOM engine and it looks/runs amazingly but Duke Nukem 64 goes for the 3D hardware and the port isn't as great.

Edited September 21, 2023 by TasAcri

[tzen]

Would assume Build is way too janky but what do I know

[Rudolph]

I did not know that Duke Nukem 64 did not use the Build engine. Does it mean that its wiki page is wrong, then?

[Individualised]

Almost everything in OP is wrong, but I'll leave the explanation to someone who has a bit more energy.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Individualised

[TasAcri]

47 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

I did not know that Duke Nukem 64 did not use the Build engine. Does it mean that its wiki page is wrong, then?

 

Since it's a full 3D engine i assumed it wasn't.

[Dimon12321]

43 minutes ago, TasAcri said:

Since it's a full 3D engine i assumed it wasn't.

So does that mean, the engine in Duke Nukem: Total Meltdown for PSX is, if not heavily cut, may be not a Build engine as well?

[TasAcri]

34 minutes ago, Dimon12321 said:

So does that mean, the engine in Duke Nukem: Total Meltdown for PSX is, if not heavily cut, may be not a Build engine as well?

 

Total Meltdown looks and behaves like the original Duke Nukem 3D in that it also distorts the image when looking up and down. So i have no reason to think it's not the build engine, unlike the N64 that seems to use a proper 3D engine, like the Saturn does.

Edited September 21, 2023 by TasAcri

[DNSKILL5]

Well, Duke Nukem 64 and Duke Nukem Zero Hour both use BUILD and I have no idea where you got the idea they weren’t. DN64 has 3D models for explosions and the final boss, but it is still made with BUILD. It has been 100% confirmed that DNZH is using the BUILD engine. So I’d say, absolutely the N64 could handle the BUILD engine. DN64 has a lot of weapons that are similar to ones found in Shadow Warrior, so I imagine both SW and Blood could’ve been ported to the system in some way. 
 

DN64 may have been censored, but it wasn’t like the levels themselves were cut short or anything. If anything many of the levels were added onto, not taken away from. It also runs much smoother than the PS1 version.  
 

Also, DN64 doesn’t have music because the developers simply didn’t bother, not due to any technical limitations. 

Edited September 21, 2023 by CAM-7EA

[TasAcri]

5 minutes ago, CAM-7EA said:

Well, Duke Nukem 64 and Duke Nukem Zero Hour both use BUILD and I have no idea where you you got the idea they weren’t.

I thought i already explained my reasoning a few times (it looks like a proper 3D engine with perspective correction and all). It may be a wrong one but that's what made me think it's a different engine.

[DNSKILL5]

16 minutes ago, TasAcri said:

I thought i already explained my reasoning a few times (it looks like a proper 3D engine with perspective correction and all). It may be a wrong one but that's what made me think it's a different engine.

I’m not trying to be insulting. I am just telling you that no, it isn’t a 3D engine (or at least, not in that way), and that yes, the BUILD engine can work fairly well with the N64. 
 

Total Meltdown is also using the BUILD engine on PS1. There were plans to port Blood to the PS1 (and technically the Saturn as well), but they were quickly cancelled. 

Edited September 21, 2023 by CAM-7EA

[Herr Dethnout]

 

8 hours ago, TasAcri said:

The N64 has a powerful CPU and a not so powerful 3D hardware.

This is so wrong in a lot of senses...

[Dark Pulse]

4 hours ago, Dimon12321 said:

So does that mean, the engine in Duke Nukem: Total Meltdown for PSX is, if not heavily cut, may be not a Build engine as well?

I'm pretty sure Total Meltdown is using Build even on PS1, and that is part of the reason behind its atrocious performance.

[TasAcri]

30 minutes ago, Herr Dethnout said:

This is so wrong in a lot of senses...

 

OK, how?

[Individualised]

This entire post is based on a false assumption anyway, as Doom 64 is also hardware rendered just like the Duke port. The N64's CPU is not doing any rendering work, it wouldn't make much sense for them to do a software rendered game on the N64, it would just lead to worse graphical fidelity. The N64's 3D hardware was very good for the time, the PS1's 3D capabilities were lacking at best and the Saturn's were a joke.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Individualised

[TasAcri]

3 minutes ago, Individualised said:

Your original post seems to imply that Doom 64 is software rendered, which is not true. It is still id Tech 1 but it has a hardware renderer. The CPU is not doing any rendering work.

Thanks for the explanation.

[Redneckerz]

10 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

I'm pretty sure Total Meltdown is using Build even on PS1, and that is part of the reason behind its atrocious performance.

I can confirm this as the liner notes of my physical copy list a thank you to Ken Silverman for using the Build Engine.

Duke 64 does use Build, but it has support for 3D models bolted on top with Eurocom. I believe a Digital Foundry video said this.

 

 

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

I just wanted to say that I found this thread to be educational even if it was based on an incorrect assumption. Rare to see a thread where the OP says "thank you" when people explain why they're wrong instead of getting an attitude. I didn't know anything about the PSX Duke games, so it's one more thing to add to my small book of knowledge.

Edited September 22, 2023 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[aboyes1989]

I always assumed Duke Nukem 64 just ran on a modified/optimised build engine, as it plays very much like the PC version. More so than the Saturn port, which plays like crap. I mean, technically it runs so smoothly, and looks great, but it doesn't have the weight and feel of the build engine, which I think Duke needs.

[Dark Pulse]

2 hours ago, aboyes1989 said:

I always assumed Duke Nukem 64 just ran on a modified/optimised build engine, as it plays very much like the PC version. More so than the Saturn port, which plays like crap. I mean, technically it runs so smoothly, and looks great, but it doesn't have the weight and feel of the build engine, which I think Duke needs.

Yeah, pretty sure Saturn Duke runs on the Powerslave engine, like Quake.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Dark Pulse

[Kinsie]

PS1 Duke 3D: BUILD

PS1 Duke Time To Kill/LOTB: Custom engine ("NewDuke")

N64 Duke 64: BUILD w/ hardware renderer + 3D model support
N64 Duke Zero Hour: BUILD w/ hardware renderer + 3D model support

Saturn Duke 3D: Slavedriver

GBA Duke Advanced: Southpaw

 

PS1 Doom/Final Doom: Modified Jaguar Doom engine

Saturn Doom: Modified Jaguar Doom engine ported from PS1 version

SNES Doom: Custom engine ("RAGE")

GBA Doom 1: Modified Jaguar Doom engine

GBA Doom 2: Southpaw

N64 Doom 64: Modified PS1 Doom engine with hardware renderer, colored lighting, level scripting...

 

Saturn Quake 1: Slavedriver

PS1 Quake 1: Never released, but would have been Slavedriver

PS1 Quake 2: Custom Engine (Hammerhead's Seemingly Unnamed PS1 Engine)

N64 Quake 1: Quake 1 engine w/ hardware renderer + coloured lighting support

N64 Quake 2: Modified blend of Quake 1 N64 and bits of Quake 2 code?

 

Hope this helps!

Edited September 23, 2023 by Kinsie

[TasAcri]

I would never have guessed Zero Hour uses Build. It looks and feels like a completely different game. Then again Half-Life uses Quake I engine so i shouldn't be surprised.

 

Also, isn't the Quake I and II the same engine with some updates?

 

I'm surprised how Quake I was never released on the PS1. You would think the most popular console at the time would also have a version of it. Can't think of any other popular multiplatform game that exists on both Saturn and N64 but not the PS1...

[Gez]

We can add that Southpaw is also used for Duke Nukem Advance.

[taufan99]

48 minutes ago, TasAcri said:

I'm surprised how Quake I was never released on the PS1. You would think the most popular console at the time would also have a version of it. Can't think of any other popular multiplatform game that exists on both Saturn and N64 but not the PS1...

Lobotomy Software never managed to find a distributor for that very platform's Q1 port. I've heard a demo copy of it exists on a magazine demo collection CD back in the day, but take this with a grain of salt or two, as I only got told by someone on YouTube about that.

[Individualised]

As far as I know PS1 Quake never got past the pre-alpha stage so I highly doubt that, though it's possible that I was told misinformation.

 

The above list should probably mention Doom 64 (id Tech 1 + hardware renderer). I'm not sure if it's right to call PS1 Doom a "modified Jaguar Doom engine" as I believe it may have emerged alongside Jaguar Doom rather than being a fork of it (PS1 Doom started development in 1994, and Doom 64, which started development in late 1994, is a fork of that version)

Edited September 23, 2023 by Individualised

[Kinsie]

Updated the list a little.

 

7 minutes ago, Individualised said:

I'm not sure if it's right to call PS1 Doom a "modified Jaguar Doom engine" as I believe it may have emerged alongside Jaguar Doom rather than being a fork of it (PS1 Doom started development in 1994, and Doom 64, which started development in late 1994, is a fork of that version)

The PsyDoom source code suggests enough similarities between the weird quirks of the PS1 and Jaguar codebases that I'm comfortable with my guesstimate until someone who knows their shit comes along and slaps me down.

[taufan99]

42 minutes ago, Gez said:

We can add that Southpaw is also used for Duke Nukem Advance.

As well as Ice Nine.

[Rudolph]

1 hour ago, TasAcri said:

I'm surprised how Quake I was never released on the PS1. You would think the most popular console at the time would also have a version of it. Can't think of any other popular multiplatform game that exists on both Saturn and N64 but not the PS1...

Me too, especially since Quake II would later get ported to the Playstation 1.

 

It is like how Blizzard had both WarCraft II + its expansion and Diablo 1 ported to the Playstation, but not StarCraft/Brood War; that one got ported to the Nintendo 64 instead, for some reason. Sometimes, it is really difficult to follow the logic behind those business decisions.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Rudolph

[DNSKILL5]

1 hour ago, TasAcri said:

I would never have guessed Zero Hour uses Build. It looks and feels like a completely different game. Then again Half-Life uses Quake I engine so i shouldn't be surprised.

Yeah, currently it’s possible to load up the Zero Hour maps into Mapster32. Unfortunately without the game code, you can’t do much beyond looking at the map layouts. This could change soon though thanks to this project. 
 

You can already play Duke Nukem 64 through the RedNukem source port, that is if you have the ROM of course.  

[princetontiger]

On 9/22/2023 at 6:22 AM, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

I just wanted to say that I found this thread to be educational even if it was based on an incorrect assumption. Rare to see a thread where the OP says "thank you" when people explain why they're wrong instead of getting an attitude. I didn't know anything about the PSX Duke games, so it's one more thing to add to my small book of knowledge.

 

It's rare to see internet forums like Doomworld. these days... most people here are thoughtful and consider what they write before hitting Submit.

Edited September 23, 2023 by princetontiger

[Drywtler]

3 hours ago, TasAcri said:

Then again Half-Life uses Quake I engine so i shouldn't be surprised.

Quakeworld with a bit of Quake II, and a lot of modifications from Valve actually.