what is your opinion on acid or lava that does not do damage ?

[dremor8484]

example, plutonia official expansion... level 16: nukage floor that does not do damage.

i also found lava that doesn't do damage

 

and blood sometimes does damage, sometimes not

same for dirty water...

 

what do you think about this lack of consistency ?

[Doomy__Doom]

Across different wads - all bets are off 100%. Mappers can do whatever they want with their liquids.

 

Across maps of the same wad - most bets are off. It's nice if a wad with a heavily consistent theme is consistent on liquid effect usage and I'll make default assumptions based on prior instances, but outside of blind ironmanning it's not important. I wouldn't by default expect any consistency from, say, "grab bag" style projects.

 

Within a single map - I prefer consistency, but there are still exceptions for appropriate theming, such as increasing corruption/toxicity levels as you advance deeper and now sludge that used to not hurt hurts. Or, to put it in the most boring way - it depends(tm).

[dremor8484]

7 minutes ago, Doomy__Doom said:

Within a single map - I prefer consistency

 

i created i simple mod that substitute textures in 1 single level, guess what... the same texture sometimes does damage, sometimes it doesn't -.-'

plutonia map makers did not like consistency -.-'

 

class CustomLevelProcessor : LevelPostProcessor
{
    protected void Apply(Name checksum, String mapname)
    {
        switch(checksum)
        {
            //NUKAGE1, SFALL1
            //BLOOD1, BFALL1
            //FWATER1, WFALL1
            //SLIME01
            //LAVA1
            
            //logfile a.log
            //mapchecksum map16
        
            case 'ECA0559E85EFFB6966ECB8DE01E3A35B': // PLUTONIA.WAD map16
            {
                Level.ReplaceTextures("NUKAGE1","FWATER1",TexMan.NOT_CEILING);
                Level.ReplaceTextures("SFALL1","WFALL1",TexMan.NOT_CEILING);
                //Level.ReplaceTextures("NUKAGE1","BLOOD1",TexMan.NOT_CEILING);
                //Level.ReplaceTextures("SFALL1","BFALL1",TexMan.NOT_CEILING);
                break;
            }
        }
    }
}

 

well, i guess i will just play the map without bothering ^^

[RataUnderground]

Failure to maintain consistency over a series of maps or the same map is bad design. But if your liquids consistently do no damage (or do the same damage every time depending on their type), it is perfectly valid.

[volleyvalley]

I have no issues with the mapset, if it uses it's damaging floors consistently through out the .WAD, but I don't enjoy mapsets, that do damaging floors like Plutonia did, that's my one and only gripe with that .WAD.

[Zulk RS]

I like consistency. If a map in a mapset has damaging nukage, I would expect future instances of nukage in the same mapset to also do damage. I don't really pay attention to the amount of damage though. If nukage in one spot does 5 damage and does 20 in another spot, that's fine. There are exceptions to this when it suits the environmental story telling. Water not being damaging normally but going into a room where the mapper is showing electrical wires in the water and that water does damage; yeah that's perfectly fair.

 

In general though, non-damaging lava has always seemed weird to me. I don't know why. Same with damaging water (except for storytelling instances like the above example). All bets are off with nukage, blood and mud-water.

[Sesamia]

Consistency during every level of a WAD is all I ask for.  Having to guess is just annoying.  I'm also okay with having different rules for liquids depending on visual cues around the level, but it should be obvious and used either sparingly or be presented identically during each use.

[NoWits]

3 hours ago, dremor8484 said:

 

i created i simple mod that substitute textures in 1 single level, guess what... the same texture sometimes does damage, sometimes it doesn't -.-'

plutonia map makers did not like consistency -.-'

 

class CustomLevelProcessor : LevelPostProcessor
{
    ...
}

 

well, i guess i will just play the map without bothering ^^

 

I don't know if the language/library you're using supports it, but you could loop through all sectors on the map, and for each sector, check if it has a liquid floor texture.

 

If it does, and it's a 'damaging-looking' liquid texture (e.g. NUKAGE1), and the sector's special type is not a damaging floor type, change the floor texture to a non-damaging-looking one (e.g. FWATER1).

 

If the sector's floor texture is a non-damaging-looking liquid texture and the sector's special type is a damaging floor type, change the sector's floor texture to one that looks damaging.

 

Repeat for all sectors in the map (using a for-each loop or similar, depending on the features of the language you're using).

[wuunds]

Personally I don't mind. I think the power to use textures in any way you want, esp liquids, is good. I mean how else are you going to have a murky pool of water if the only water texture is pure blue? You gotta use the slime liquid textures to get the idea across.

[URROVA]

I personally when see damaging texture, like NUKAGE textured floors, I tend to think its damaging and i will try to avoid it.

How do i tell the player thet nukage doesnt damage them?

 

Some solutions:

• Making the starting room flooded with NUKAGE liquid, and the player stepping on it. The player will not be damaged, and will understand that nukage does no damage.
• Make the player fall to a room with nukage without the player seeing it (eg a tall hole to the room). Again the player will see it does no damage.

 

@NoWits its zscript, for GZDoom. It should be capable of doing that.

Edited September 27, 2023 by URROVA

[Amaruψ]

It's up to the author to the way they're using their liquid textures, and while straying from what the vanilla game does is perfectly fine for a singular map, it's quite bad when it comes to the properties just switching around without a warning in a wad. Plutonia is definitely one of the biggest offenders when it comes to this, and I generally dislike such practice due to Plutonia.

[The_SloVinator]

It looks odd but I won't complain if it doesn't hurt me. lol

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by The_SloVinator

[Mr Masker]

3 hours ago, Doomy__Doom said:

Mappers can do whatever they want with their liquids.

I'm very immature for laughing at this...

[slowfade]

I expect dangerous liquids to do damage but I expect blood not to, although it does just that in the original episodes...

[OpenRift]

I think it's kind of weird and is one of the few parts of Plutonia that doesn't age as well. I do kind of understand the idea of damaging water and blood, because it could be like boiling hot or something like that. But explicitly non-damaging nukage or lava just doesn't make a whole lot of sense in a lot of contexts.

[Arsinikk]

Non-damaging lava is based. More WADs should do this and make water damaging instead.

[Shepardus]

I like it when parts of the same surface are actually different sectors and some do damage while others do not.

[NiGHTS108]

I mean if it compliments the visual style to have a liquid like nukage or lava in a certain area AND it compliments the gameplay to have it not damaging then there’s absolutely no problem imo, so what it’s inconsistent if it makes the map better

[ducon]

5 hours ago, dremor8484 said:

what do you think about this lack of consistency ?

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

Not a fan.  To some degree I like how Hexen just automatically connects certain properties to flats without needing a sector special, though in other ways that can be a pain.

[Naarok0fkor]

I would never use lava that's not damaging. Nukage on the other hand can be enjoyable to wade into. A space marine is supposed to be properly equipped to deal with toxic liquids...

[openroadracer]

I much prefer to keep liquid flats' usage consistent. If there are tells that are consistently used to explain why a blue water flat is damaging, that's fine. Lava should ALWAYS be damaging.

Blood, that's where it gets tricky. I'd say that in Hell levels, it should generally always be damaging; there's no telling what Demons' blood is made of. On the other hand, in levels set on Earth or otherwise in the realms of the living, it gets a lot harder to be sure whether blood pools should be damaging.

Brown water flats can be a bit of a wild card; but I'd rather keep them as weakly damaging, if they're damaging at all. Nukage can be anywhere from weakly damaging to harshly punishing, but I'd generally always make it damaging if I were doing the mapping.

[Cutman 999]

One of the things i hate in doom if used wrong, also one of the reasons i despise perfect hatred and againts thee wickedly. I don't use nukage as damaging because of aesthetics, only lava should be the universal damaging floor texture.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

It's nice to have player wade through a small section of hurtfloor in low-stakes situation. Like getting out a cave at the very beginning, crossing a stream of green slime. Does it hurt? Okay, now I know to watch out for that. And perhaps a stimpack or some health vials nearby because it's just a little tutorial area. Punishing the player with 5-20 HP for learning rules of the map is pretty dumb, imo.

There is fair punishment and bullshit punishment. Dying to 80dmg rev rocket because imp scratched me is completely fair. Dying to 80dmg rev rocket because a pond hurt me which was in no way communicated as hurtfloor is bullshit.

I'd say it's fine to use any particular flat as damaging, maybe even dirt or bricks or whatever. But the player needs to know the rules, and the rules need to remain consistent. And the flat distinct. If you make dirt damaging, you can't say "well, this particular dirt is has few pebbles in it so it's not damaging." That's veering into bullshit territory again. They should know with absolute certainty at a glance what hurts and what doesn't.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Sneezy McGlassFace

[mrthejoshmon]

If my liquid sector is going to damage you, despite being previously established as safe, I like to tell the player with little details:

 

It has been a while since I last did that though.

Edited September 27, 2023 by mrthejoshmon

[Firedust]

as long as liquids are consistent in their mapsets / episodes, it doesn't really matter

[Novaseer]

3 hours ago, openroadracer said:

Blood, that's where it gets tricky. I'd say that in Hell levels, it should generally always be damaging; there's no telling what Demons' blood is made of.

 

Or, because it's Hell, maybe there's partially animated corpses below the surface that scratch and claw at you as you wade through it.

I'll go with that because it's more metal.

[Ravendesk]

Any flat can be made damaging or non-damaging if the map visual style requires it. It's only a matter of telegraphing it well.

 

Also there is absolutely no need to make damaging floors consistent across the wad, especially when visual theme changes. Green liquid in a techbase and green liquid in outdoors/cave map can mean different things and making them consistent just for the sake of consistency makes no sense. Moreover, even within the same map there can be cases where the same flat is damaging in one part of the map and not damaging in the other part of the map and it's fine because the different is telegraphed by surrounding visuals, layout, fight configuration etc and the player won't even notice the inconsistency (or at least will not be bothered by it).

 

If you think green liquid looks good in your room, but having it damaging doesn't work in your fight - just don't make it damaging, it doesn't matter you have green liquid that's damaging 3 maps ago.

 

7 hours ago, RataUnderground said:

Failure to maintain consistency over a series of maps or the same map is bad design.

No, it's not.

[pcorf]

FWATER1,2,3,4 = No damage

BLOOD1,2,3 = 5% or No damage (especially in harder maps)

NUKAGE1,2,3 = 10%

LAVA1,2,3,4 = 20%

SLIME01,02,03,04 and SLIME05,06,07,09, = No damage, 5% or 10%, it really depends on my mood for the setting.

 

Also some hot looking or intimidating floors can be set to damaging but it depends on the circumstances.

[Walter confetti]

Not damaging acid (nukage floor?): it's good, reminds me of good 90s maps.

 

Not damaging lava: BLASPHEMY

 

1 hour ago, pcorf said:

FWATER1,2,3,4 = No damage

BLOOD1,2,3 = 5% or No damage (especially in harder maps)

NUKAGE1,2,3 = 10%

LAVA1,2,3,4 = 20%

SLIME01,02,03,04 and SLIME05,06,07,09, = No damage, 5% or 10%, it really depends on my mood for the setting.

 

Almost the same for me too