Rate That Custom Enemy!

[DoomGuy999]

Wads like valiant and quantum strike 99x9 feature custom enemies which you don't see often, so everyone (including me) can get information and other's opinions. Each week is dedicated to a new enemy. Rate them 0/10 based on difficulty, how well it fits with doom, design, etc.

THIS WEEK, AFRIT

Featured in quantum strike 99x9 and scythe 2

Image:

 

Quote

"Why? Because ranking things is fun!" -MtPain27 

Suggestions

NightWatch Cacodemon

Evil Marine

Nightmare Demon

Post which one you want to do out of these 3!

Up next

Malevolence

Edited October 3, 2023 by DoomGuy999
Suggestions

[SupremeBioVizier]

shifting baron

[DoomGuy999]

3 hours ago, nocisum said:

shifting baron

So, is this a sprite showcase? What's your rating?

[Cammy]

I haven't played Quantum Strike so I can't comment on it, but I think both of the Scythe 2 custom monsters are overhated - especially so in the case of the Afrit. Even though I enjoy the extreme movement and precision that Evil Marines require of you, I can easily see why someone would loathe them for being too much of a knowledge check.

 

The Afrit, though, is a very cleverly-implemented monster, as his extreme tankiness and very wide cone of fire essentially force you to engage him from a distance in a way no vanilla Doom monster can. Even the Cyberdemon is less risky to fight at close range, because once you learn Cybie's firing pattern you can consistently dodge the rocket volleys and plant him up close with the BFG no problem. Not so with the Afrit - you can't reliably bob and weave through a carpet of fire unless he's directing it at someone else. Not even the Spider Mastermind competes, because she's such a huge and clumsy target that any amount of cover completely defeats her all on its own, while the more mobile Afrit will keep you moving. Like other bosses, he's slow, tanky, and powerful enough that the fights that involve him will inevitably become concentrated around the area he decides to occupy, but that's not symptomatic of bad design, it's just a part of the Afrit experience.

 

Knowing this, Alm tends to only use the Afrit in a couple different scenarios, and only springs them on you at all in the final 5 maps of Scythe 2. He either serves as a powerful usher to keep you moving through a narrow environment (as seen in the first Afrit in map26 and the BFG guardian in map29), remaining on the run from both the Afrit himself and whichever other monsters you wake up trying to run from him - or he's an infighting buddy in a wide-open area or at the end of a hallway, contributing generously to Scythe 2's bullet hell. I don't believe either of these scenarios are inherently cheap or unfair; you could maybe make a case for the very first Afrit in map26 being a bit excessively mean, but I think that meanness can be at least partially justified by the purpose it serves in capping off a very stressful map, and in letting one of Scythe 2's signature monsters make a striking debut.

 

Then in maps 28 and 30, which are both slaughter bonanzas, the devastating attack pattern of Afrits makes it both a threat to face and a thrill to kill, even when you're fully stacked with all the guns and power-ups those maps can throw at you. It's no coincidence that the only two maps in which Alm places more than 5 Afrits are also the only two Hell maps where he places you in charge of the flow of combat.

 

I like the Spicy Baron. He gets an 8/10.

[baja blast rd.]

I wrote a bit about Afrit-fighting tactics here.

 

I like the Scythe 2 version. 

 

Already a plus that it's a more immediately threatening flying projectile enemy, since that is Doom's most needed niche (the common arachnorb implementation is my favorite of that niche). The sprite is cool and it just makes sense in Doom's universe. It is a genuinely frightening enemy, which also remains very dangerous if you choose to flee an area containing it, because it can sneak up on you; that is a cool property for an enemy to have. No real complaints about the lethality of its attacks in regular play, because if you're not going for a fast UV-max time you never really have to do anything dangerous like BFG faceplanting with no setup. It's a funny attack and I like it.  

 

Minuses would be that it could use less HP -- I like Machete's implementation more -- and a higher mass value in the DeHackEd to make it harder to knock back; ease of being pushed back is not an inherent property of flying enemies. Always felt reusing the baron death trumpet identically wasn't ideal and a slight variant would be cooler, like how cybruisers have those distorted versions of the hell noble sounds, but I don't mind the wake-up as much. 

 

Rating: flying horseshit out of 10.  

[Lucius Wooding]

I'd rather fight 10 afrits in the big open spaces they tend to live in than one of those fucking evil marines. Ditto for the astral cacos from Eviternity, they're a lot more threatening IMO because of how erratically they move and how cramped many of the fights are compared to late Scythe 2. All you need to know for afrits is how to crowd control them and sling BFG to deal with them and the biggest threat at that point is if you make a mistake. They may deal a lot of damage but they're a lot more avoidable than the evil marines and you generally have heavier weapons to deal with them.

 

There are a couple small arenas where you fight afrits but it's rare they actually cause problems if you know what you're doing since the afrit is usually treated as a boss monster in 1v1.  The biggest issue holding them back is simply their flying nature; they get knocked back to Guam if you get a decent shot in so they're annoying to kill but they aren't effective for getting pressure on you. Barons are imposing pressure units that don't flinch or get knocked back, so even though they can't surprise you by flying they at least have a way of cornering you and holding their ground. 

 

I think afrits are a highly overrated custom enemy in terms of their actual threat. They're cool looking and sure to kill you a few times but if you're patient against them I feel the average archvile is a lot scarier.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Lucius Wooding

[Woolie Wool]

For the most part I hate dehacked monsters but I don't mind the Afrit all that much, its mobility huge AoE fulfills a tactical role that no other monster really fits into (the "general spatial awareness" side of Linguica's famous monster roles diagram):

 

 

Only the cyberdemon fits here in regular Doom and cybers are very limited in their versatility. That said, I think the original form of the Afrit has way too many hitpoints and reducing his health makes him a lot better.

[LadyMistDragon]

7/10

 

Afrits definitely add an extra something to Doom, but like other custom monster, will probably upset balance in undesirable ways if you're not careful. Abusing them seems a little tempting if you use them.

[maxmanium]

1 hour ago, Woolie Wool said:

-snip-

 

I wonder if anyone's made any monsters to fill those empty overlaps? Is it possible?

[Woolie Wool]

I'd say in groups the green demons from Eviternity test both your immediate spatial awareness and your time awareness by trying to box you in.

[Cutman 999]

3 hours ago, Cammy said:

I haven't played Quantum Strike so I can't comment on it, but I think both of the Scythe 2 custom monsters are overhated - especially so in the case of the Afrit. Even though I enjoy the extreme movement and precision that Evil Marines require of you, I can easily see why someone would loathe them for being too much of a knowledge check.

 

The Afrit, though, is a very cleverly-implemented monster, as his extreme tankiness and very wide cone of fire essentially force you to engage him from a distance in a way no vanilla Doom monster can. Even the Cyberdemon is less risky to fight at close range, because once you learn Cybie's firing pattern you can consistently dodge the rocket volleys and plant him up close with the BFG no problem. Not so with the Afrit - you can't reliably bob and weave through a carpet of fire unless he's directing it at someone else. Not even the Spider Mastermind competes, because she's such a huge and clumsy target that any amount of cover completely defeats her all on its own, while the more mobile Afrit will keep you moving. Like other bosses, he's slow, tanky, and powerful enough that the fights that involve him will inevitably become concentrated around the area he decides to occupy, but that's not symptomatic of bad design, it's just a part of the Afrit experience.

 

Knowing this, Alm tends to only use the Afrit in a couple different scenarios, and only springs them on you at all in the final 5 maps of Scythe 2. He either serves as a powerful usher to keep you moving through a narrow environment (as seen in the first Afrit in map26 and the BFG guardian in map29), remaining on the run from both the Afrit himself and whichever other monsters you wake up trying to run from him - or he's an infighting buddy in a wide-open area or at the end of a hallway, contributing generously to Scythe 2's bullet hell. I don't believe either of these scenarios are inherently cheap or unfair; you could maybe make a case for the very first Afrit in map26 being a bit excessively mean, but I think that meanness can be at least partially justified by the purpose it serves in capping off a very stressful map, and in letting one of Scythe 2's signature monsters make a striking debut.

 

Then in maps 28 and 30, which are both slaughter bonanzas, the devastating attack pattern of Afrits makes it both a threat to face and a thrill to kill, even when you're fully stacked with all the guns and power-ups those maps can throw at you. It's no coincidence that the only two maps in which Alm places more than 5 Afrits are also the only two Hell maps where he places you in charge of the flow of combat.

 

I like the Spicy Baron. He gets an 8/10.

The afrit is actually better when he is nerfed, like having its health halved like in resurgence and machete compared to the absurdity of its hp in scythe2.

[RonLivingston]

I rate up with the enhanced Imps, Demons, and Cacodemons in Super Sonic doom, many others with the mini cyberdemons, rocket launching revenants, and the stealth archviles, including many custom enemies from NeoDoom

[Biodegradable]

The Nightwatch Caco from 180 Minutes Pour Vivre is the first one that comes to my mind. I mean, look at him. What a handsome boy! He's also quite dastardly.

 

 

EDIT:

Oh, I've misinterpreted the thread. Okay, so the Afrit... I've dealt with him in a couple of different WADs and never liked him. He's an annoying bullet sponge with an erratic attack pattern that's not fun. So yeah, I think he sucks. 0/10

Edited September 30, 2023 by Biodegradable

[Kyka]

8.5/10

 

My only critiques are as mentioned above, a formidably dangerous enemy in close quarters, with perhaps too much health for a non boss enemy encounter.

 

My only other gripe, I would have preferred slightly more modification to the top half of the sprite set, which is pure baron of hell. Perhaps a little more flame surrounding him, like  a balrog, perhaps a few more horns on his torso or something. A minor gripe, but a gripe nonetheless.

 

A great and interesting enemy though. Terrifying when I first faced him back in the day.

[ShallowB]

I'm not all that into the math and theory side of Doom, so I'll generally put up with all kinds of silly "unbalanced" monsters as long as they're still fun.  So I can't really speak to the Afrit's effectiveness in that regard.

 

But I will say that I don't like him purely on the grounds that his sprite kind of bores me.  Doom 2 already has a Baron palette swap, and now there's just a baron with his legs cut off floating around?  Eh.  I dunno.  At least give him wings or a different head or something.  At least recolor him so he's not just a baron torso! 

Edited September 30, 2023 by ShallowB

[bofu]

5/10

 

Afrits tend to be more annoying to fight than anything. I've seen them used well (Violentshift comes to mind), but overall, I think they're a bit too tanky and, as used in most ways, they don't do anything for me that cacodemons or mancubi don't. Which is fine, I don't mind slight redundance in the roster, but as one of the most frequent custom monsters, they pop up a lot when I don't feel they need to.

 

Their attacks are fine, but I feel like they need to be a lower tier enemy health-wise, or else they just get grindy to fight against, especially in wide open areas where they go sailing across the map at the first sign of damage. Some wads have adjusted them like this, which I think makes them work a lot better.

Edited September 30, 2023 by bofu

[MrGigglefingers]

4/10

 

Design is uninspired, I don't like how tanky they are, attack is overwhelming in a way that feels more cheap than challenging. They get points for fitting the Doom aesthetic and offering something somewhat unique (a threatening flying monster) but I dislike them and I don't really get why it is one of the most popular custom monsters.

[OniriA]

1 Ballsack out of 10.

[Hebonky]

It needs a nerf in order to be actually fun to fight against because they are way too tanky, and they fire an unnecessary amount of fire.

[Hunting4r2d2]

Probably a 7/10 for un-nerfed, 8/10 nerfed. I love the absolutely brutal fire power they can deliver, but they need to be used sparingly as a result. As others mentioned, they have too much hp, hence why I prefer the iterations that nock their hp down a bit. Overall though, a great addition for map makers that know how to use them.

 

 

[Chopper]

A lot of times, Mappers use custom monsters as a "gotcha", and the Afrit is no doubt a poster boy for that sentiment. Basically, 5/10 if they are placed badly and used for artificial difficulty, but a 9/10 if used smartly, since their aesthetic is pretty badass and they fill their role pretty well, as aerial pressure.

[DoomGuy999]

9 hours ago, Chopper said:

A lot of times, Mappers use custom monsters as a "gotcha", and the Afrit is no doubt a poster boy for that sentiment. Basically, 5/10 if they are placed badly and used for artificial difficulty, but a 9/10 if used smartly, since their aesthetic is pretty badass and they fill their role pretty well, as aerial pressure.

Damn right about the graphics. The fire under them makes them look like hell spirits. As if they were fiery ghosts 

[Dreamskull]

The Evil Marine, especially the plasma gun variant, is hands down GOAT 11/10 cannot be beat. Im a big fan of custom monsters, but I can only go so far. I will only vote on the original three you wanted to talk, but it just so happens that the Evil Marine is an EASY All-Star pick deserving of top billing.

 

Afrit is decent, but only out of uniqueness. Hes too tanky to be used as a swarm monster, which is what flying monsters are good for.

Theres one other thing. If you want my personal opinion. the HAEDEXEBUS is a better example of a meaty ground enemy remade to fly.

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Dreamskull

[Lila Feuer]

Scythe II's last five maps currently stand the test of "holy shit my skill range has been stress tested above and beyond my comfort zone" and Erik Alm gets to hold the current honor of "mapper who's grieved me the hardest in a megawad" with a personal shoutout to the hardest map of Plutonia 2 with his entry MAP24: Outpost of the Evil Dead. So naturally he also has two of some of the most difficult enemies in any PWAD (Astral Cacos come close via Eviternity) and between the Evil Marine and Afrit I'm gonna have to go with the second. Yes the former is brutal but he's relegated to limited numbers due to his overt lethality and he's a glass cannon in comparison, while the latter is as several have noted really could've benefitted from reduced health and on future playthroughs of Scy2 I am considering bumping him down a ways on my copy (the DeHackEd is inside the WAD). The bastard is rarely alone and the maps he's on outside his cruel debut has him in spades alongside many, many other monsters in what is IMO a hallmark of slaughtermap excess dickery. Don't take that as a diss, Scy2 is a goddamn masterpiece of one-man megawad creations, but hell if he wasn't kidding when he said UV is really, really hard near the end. I do like the Afrit's purpose of a mobile tank and think his attack is well suited to that, but his stay is uncomfortably inflated with that massive pool of 2500 health.

Sonofabitchassmotherfucker/10

Edited October 2, 2023 by Lila Feuer

[Murdoch]

I rate it  ican'tseeshitbecausethefileissolowres/10.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

Cool idea, but the wrong execution (no offense) because the weekly feature thing isn't going to work. I think it should be something like "rate the custom enemy above you", which is what I was expecting when I opened the thread. I really do think you're onto a unique idea for a thread that could be a lot of fun, seeing new custom monsters is really cool.

[DoomGuy999]

10 hours ago, Murdoch said:

I rate it  ican'tseeshitbecausethefileissolowres/10.

Sorry I couldn't find a better resolution. Just play scythe 2. Your rating is not just about design

[Kyka]

On 10/1/2023 at 12:27 PM, OniriA said:

1 Ballsack out of 10.

 

14 hours ago, Lila Feuer said:

Sonofabitchassmotherfucker/10

 

14 hours ago, Murdoch said:

 ican'tseeshitbecausethefileissolowres/10.

 

I really like this thread. Custom monsters are cool and I have already learned a lot about monster use and design philosophies on how to use monsters from this thread. I hope this thread keeps going.

 

I also love when people use weird/unique rating systems, as above. Like when Civvie 11 rated something Quake related: "I give this game three weird english words that I can't pronounce out of five." (slight paraphrase on my part as I can't remember the quote word for word.)

Edited October 2, 2023 by Kyka

[Somniac]

Afrits are quality. Remember the Moria level in DVII where a squad of them come at you from a big fire portal at the start and proceed to chase you through the rest of the map? Precious memories. IIRC those ones threw a cloud of Rev missiles instead of fireballs, but I could be mistaken there, haven't played it in years.

 

One of my favourite custom enemies is the fast melee one from Nihility: Infinite Teeth. I forget if they have a name. The reveal of that monster was perfectly executed, made me jump out of my skin and I was watching out for them for the rest of the wad. They're fast and will cut you to ribbons if you let them corner you.

[OniriA]

Brand new monster of the month October

 

 

Rate this bitchass motherfuckah. He gon' fuck you up regardless of the rating.

Edited October 2, 2023 by OniriA