Is there any point to the block sound linedef action?

[DoomGappy]

I'm writing a tutorial for absolute beginners to be used as a workshop for new mappers, and I am struggling to understand how block sound works. I found this old thread but the wad files are no longer available, so I can't check them out to see what they were about.

 

 

Here is a screenshot of my test map using some blocking sound linedefs (Red) I made as a test. 

 

   

When I tested it, all the monsters woke up when I shot them from the first room, where the player starts. What is the correct explanation for this? Does it not work for adjacent sectors and only for two sectors away? Why doesn't it work on the room to the right, then, if there are two sound blocking lines? I have some hypotheses.

 

Here is the WAD file: tutorial 01 - finished.7z

 

I'd really appreciate if anybody could explain them to me in simple terms. Thanks in advance.

Edited October 2, 2023 by jo2ukegappy

[Stabbey]

3 minutes ago, jo2ukegappy said:

I changed the setup of the map to this and it works now. But why? What is the reason? It seems very counter intuitive that a sound blocking line needs another one to effectively block the sound. Would it be because I created a "blocked sector"?
 

 

A blocked sector is one with a height of 0. It will block sound. Sound blocking lines are intended to block sound across sectors which have a height greater than 0.

 

It takes two lines to block sound because it gives more granularity and flexibility for the mapper. It allows for sound to travel a a little way, to alert some parts of a map without it alerting everything. For example, if in your first screenshot, you added another room off of one off, say, the west room. What if you wanted the monsters in the west room to wake up from a shot in the hallway, but you only wanted the monsters in the new room to wake up only if you actually entered the west room?

 

If one line blocked sound completely, then mappers wouldn't be able to use windows, openings or vistas connecting parts of a map together without alerting the entire map, or producing odd effects where you could see and shoot monsters but they couldn't hear you.

 

It's nice that you're trying to learn, but I don't think it's a good idea for a new mapper to try and write a tutorial for new mappers. That is more likely to have incorrect assumptions or errors based on misunderstanding, and propagate that misinformation to a new mapper.

[fraggle]

I'd certainly call it an advanced topic. It doesn't work very well, most people don't understand it very well (hell, I'm not sure I even understand it properly) and you have to read quite a bit to figure it out. I'd say for a beginner's guide it's best to ignore it and use the deaf monsters flag instead.

[Mordeth]

3 hours ago, JadingTsunami said:

In effect this means you need two sound-blocking linedefs to completely block sound propagation.

 

Quoted for emphasis. And sound does not travel in a line from the object emitting it like you expect: it goes from one sector (no matter if it's split or not) to all adjacent sectors. Only the second block sound linedef it encounters will stop it.

 

UDB (and related Doombuilders) has a nifty tool (Mode > Sound Propagation Mode, plugin available here) that tells you which sectors will 'hear' the sound in the sector you place the mousecursor at. Green notes sound heard; yellow also sound heard after encountering the first soundblock linedef while grey areas are still deaf. Soundblock lines are noted in red.

[JadingTsunami]

Sound is propagated on a sector-by-sector basis. When a sound-blocking linedef is encountered, the next time a sound-blocking linedef is encountered, the sound is not propagated across that linedef to any adjacent sectors. In effect this means you need two sound-blocking linedefs to completely block sound propagation.

 

In your example, the sound leaks to the monsters in the room on the right via the tiny slice of exposed sector on the north and south sides of the blocking linedefs.

[esselfortium]

It requires two lines so that you have more fine control over how sound travels. Putting them immediately next to each other is usually not the best way to do it. If I have three rooms, each with a sound-block line between them, if I'm active in room A, monsters can hear me in room B, but monsters in room C won't wake up yet. If I'm active in room C, monsters in room B can hear me, but monsters in room A will stay asleep. If I'm active in room B, monsters in rooms A and C will all awake.

 

If a single line completely blocked sound, you would notice a lot of places where you're shooting right next to a monster and it's not waking up. Spacing it out prevents this.

[Deadwing]

It feels counter-intuitive, but requiring double layers to effectively block sound allows some nice tricks dealing with waking up monsters

[boris]

UDB's Sound Propagation Mode has a leak finder that shows how sound can travel through the map. Setting the start and end points is bound to Shift+S and Shift+E by default.

 

 

[DoomGappy]

11 minutes ago, plums said:

As soon as a "deaf" monster has heard you attack, they will wake up as soon as there is a line of sight between them and you, regardless of which direction they (or you) are looking. No changes to this across different ports, as far as I'm aware.

Thanks, plums. I also found an extensive video made by Chubzdoomer that talks about these two very similar things in detail. Basically ambush means they hear you but don't act until they can see you (360º visibility, it seems), whereas block sounds mean they only hear you in the correct sector or one adjacent to it. Thanks to all who answered.
 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by jo2ukegappy

[LoatharMDPhD]

"Is there any point to the block sound linedef action?"

 

// What a silly question...

 

please watch this tutorial for beginners before you make your tutorial for beginners..

 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by LoatharMDPhD

[DoomGappy]

I changed the setup of the map to this and it works now. But why? What is the reason? It seems very counter intuitive that a sound blocking line needs another one to effectively block the sound. Would it be because I created a "blocked sector"?
 

[DoomGappy]

35 minutes ago, JadingTsunami said:

Sound is propagated on a sector-by-sector basis. When a sound-blocking linedef is encountered, the next time a sound-blocking linedef is encountered, the sound is not propagated across that linedef to any adjacent sectors. In effect this means you need two sound-blocking linedefs to completely block sound propagation.

 

In your example, the sound leaks to the monsters in the room on the right via the tiny slice of exposed sector on the north and south sides of the blocking linedefs.

 

Thank you, I will add this to the tutorial and credit you for your contribution. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by jo2ukegappy

[DoomGappy]

43 minutes ago, esselfortium said:

It requires two lines so that you have more fine control over how sound travels. Putting them immediately next to each other is usually not the best way to do it. If I have three rooms, each with a sound-block line between them, if I'm active in room A, monsters can hear me in room B, but monsters in room C won't wake up yet. If I'm active in room C, monsters in room B can hear me, but monsters in room A will stay asleep. If I'm active in room B, monsters in rooms A and C will all awake.

 

If a single line completely blocked sound, you would notice a lot of places where you're shooting right next to a monster and it's not waking up. Spacing it out prevents this.

 

I put them closely like this because since I'm doing a step by step of the basic functions, I want people to be able to create rooms where sound doesn't affect other rooms. It may be entirely unconventional, as in Doom we generally use doors to divide rooms and they automatically block sound (unless you leave some gap between the floor and the ceiling through which sound can propagate). But since this is a guide for absolute beginners to learn I am going from simpler things to more complex, and drawing lines on the ground and tagging them with block sounds is a grade below making doors, since they have so many types and functions available. I may be doing things completely upside down because doors are more intuitive and I'm actually rethinking this part. If I do it like this I'll have to talk about the sound propagation tool, and I think that's entirely roo complex for an early mapper who just wants to create a series of rooms with monsters and have fun. I'll reconsider it. Thanks for the kind answer, Esselfortium.

 

41 minutes ago, Stabbey said:

 

A blocked sector is one with a height of 0. It will block sound. Sound blocking lines are intended to block sound across sectors which have a height greater than 0.

 

It takes two lines to block sound because it gives more granularity and flexibility for the mapper. It allows for sound to travel a a little way, to alert some parts of a map without it alerting everything. For example, if in your first screenshot, you added another room off of one off, say, the west room. What if you wanted the monsters in the west room to wake up from a shot in the hallway, but you only wanted the monsters in the new room to wake up only if you actually entered the west room?

 

If one line blocked sound completely, then mappers wouldn't be able to use windows, openings or vistas connecting parts of a map together without alerting the entire map, or producing odd effects where you could see and shoot monsters but they couldn't hear you.

 

It's nice that you're trying to learn, but I don't think it's a good idea for a new mapper to try and write a tutorial for new mappers. That is more likely to have incorrect assumptions or errors based on misunderstanding, and propagate that misinformation to a new mapper.

 

I understand your worries, but that's exactly why I'm actually asking so many questions to learn as much as I can. I'm a person who learns better when they have to teach things, so by experimenting with things I can better understand how they work. Also, there is another factor which is that information in my language is severely lacking, and I want to at least help bridge that gap a little somehow. I will not publish or start anything before I am comfortable with what level of knowledge I have, and I understand the responsibility of what I want to do. I also have been asking some more experient people to give me pointers about things that I may have blind spots about. The way I worded my topic was also really stupid, because of course there is a use to a feature that is available in the program. Again, thanks for your kind answer and patience. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by jo2ukegappy
typos

[DoomGappy]

18 minutes ago, fraggle said:

I'd certainly call it an advanced topic. It doesn't work very well, most people don't understand it very well (hell, I'm not sure I even understand it properly) and you have to read quite a bit to figure it out. I'd say for a beginner's guide it's best to ignore it and use the deaf monsters flag instead.

That's another pickle I'd like to peel. Do deaf monsters wake up when I shoot in the same room even though they can't see me? Is their behaviour predictable? I'm aware they are not actually "deaf" and the flag is ambush, but does this work on all source ports or is it limited to some? I've made some alterations to the previous map but on DSDA Doom, even though the monsters can't see me, when I shoot inside the room they can listen and turn around, even if ambush is set. Is it one or the other? I've used them in maps, especially for monsters hiding behind corners, but it still isn't something I don't have a full grasp on. For now, I'll change the focus of what I'm writing to be about doors instead, and keep these advanced topics for the future when I better understand how they work.

 

 

 

tutorial 01 - finished.7z

Edited October 2, 2023 by jo2ukegappy

[DoomGappy]

11 minutes ago, boris said:

UDB's Sound Propagation Mode has a leak finder that shows how sound can travel through the map. Setting the start and end points is bound to Shift+S and Shift+E by default.

 

 

 

I may have to set the hotkeys, but that's amazing. Thanks!

[plums]

26 minutes ago, jo2ukegappy said:

Do deaf monsters wake up when I shoot in the same room even though they can't see me?

As soon as a "deaf" monster has heard you attack, they will wake up as soon as there is a line of sight between them and you, regardless of which direction they (or you) are looking. No changes to this across different ports, as far as I'm aware.

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

Sound block lines and ambush (deaf) flags are both useful for different reasons and I use both when I make maps, though I admit sound block lines are a little fiddly (I didn't know about there being an in-editor display of sound regions available, I'll have to look into that)

 

To give a more "theory" example of when I'd use sound block, picture you have a map with extensive outdoor areas that have open connections between them.  It might not be desirable to, say, have all the creatures on one side of a big chasm wake up when there's fighting on the other side, but still be desired for them to have normal sound alert behavior when the player gets to the other side themself.  So I'd put sound block flags on the lines bordering both sides of the chasm (and wherever else might be needed to seal those areas from each other).

 

Similarly even with indoor areas, if there's open connections between one side of a big building to the other, you probably don't want the whole building to wake up at once, but might still want guards to leave their posts and investigate when there's fighting nearby.  Things like that.

 

It's somewhat a "what scenario makes the most sense (or is more interesting to play)" judgement call sort of thing.

[Vermil]

Co-incidentally, the main corridor of Doom2 Map01 uses block sound linedefs to delay the waking up of the Imps in the main room.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Vermil

[boris]

11 minutes ago, Mordeth said:

UDB (and related Doombuilders) has a nifty tool (Mode > Sound Propagation Mode, plugin available here) that tells you which sectors will 'hear' the sound in the sector you place the mousecursor at. Green notes sound heard; yellow also sound heard after encountering the first soundblock linedef while grey areas are still deaf. Soundblock lines are noted in red.

 

UDB comes packaged with the plugin. Please do not overwrite it with the one from the ZDoom forums thread. In the best case you'll just have an outdated version, in the worst case it could crash.

[DoomGappy]

48 minutes ago, LoatharMDPhD said:

"Is there any point to the block sound linedef action?"

 

// What a silly question...

 

please watch this tutorial for beginners before you make your tutorial for beginners..

 

 

 

I admitted my phrasing was quite bad. Thanks for the link, will watch it.