[COMMUNITY PROJECT] (MUSICIANS NEEDED) Amalgoom, Combining Doom 1 and 2

[Johnny Cruelty]

3 hours ago, GermanPeter said:

Not a bad idea, just needs more of a focus. I think explaining the merging of two different realities/ planets as demonic corruption is a good idea, but maybe you should take it a bit more light-hearted. I mean, the project is called "Amalgoom", a name that's already tongue-in-cheek, and some of the levels are called stuff like "Woof 2 It". So I think talking about cult leaders and political tensions isn't fitting at all.

I'd personally just keep it really simple and explain it as Doomguy accidentally having messed up reality when he killed the Icon of Sin or something, and now the past is repeating itself, but in a corrupted form. Maybe even do a joke at the end how it was all just a dream (explaining the dream logic), but then reveal that it might not have been a dream after all.

 

Of course that's just my idea, but maybe play more into the idea of "Wait, haven't we done this before?" That Doomguy has to go through everything all over again despite JUST having finished up his work.

 

I'd offer to whip something up, though I'm not sure if I have the time for it.

I'd rather stick to my own idea, but I guess I could change the cult leader stuff

 

[GermanPeter]

9 minutes ago, Johnny Cruelty said:

I'd rather stick to my own idea, but I guess I could change the cult leader stuff

 

Of course, it's your story, I'd just keep it simple and in the style of the original Doom games and maybe even create a bigger connection between them.

[DoomGappy]

 

11 minutes ago, Johnny Cruelty said:

I'd rather stick to my own idea, but I guess I could change the cult leader stuff

 

 

If it were an original mod, that would be okay, but it sounds a bit too complex for a doom wad. This is doom 1 and 2 bashed together, and those aren't exactly games known for their in-depth storytelling. If I may quote the C-man himself:

 

 

I think Peter's story is more simple and straight to the point. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by DoomGappy

[Johnny Cruelty]

15 minutes ago, DoomGappy said:

 

 

If it were an original mod, that would be okay, but it sounds a bit too complex for a doom wad. This is doom 1 and 2 bashed together, and those aren't exactly games known for their in-depth storytelling. If I may quote the C-man himself:

 

 

I think Peter's story is more simple and straight to the point. 

Eh I guess we could use my idea but keep it simplified in carmack methods, like just simplify the story

[SpaceCat_2001]

Spoiler

Do you like cursed things?

[Johnny Cruelty]

27 minutes ago, SpaceCat_2001 said:

  Hide contents

Do you like cursed things?

Woah

[RileyXY1]

10 hours ago, Johnny Cruelty said:

@RileyXY1 also how is map05 doing for ya to?

Good. I have a good chunk of the opening Phobos Lab portion done.

[SpaceCat_2001]

@Johnny Cruelty have you made any progress on map03?

[Johnny Cruelty]

9 minutes ago, SpaceCat_2001 said:

@Johnny Cruelty have you made any progress on map03?

I'm afk rn

Edited October 31, 2023 by Johnny Cruelty

[Johnny Cruelty]

1 hour ago, RileyXY1 said:

Good. I have a good chunk of the opening Phobos Lab portion done.

May I see a screenshot please?

[The Royal We]

2 hours ago, Johnny Cruelty said:

3 hours ago, DoomGappy said:

If it were an original mod, that would be okay, but it sounds a bit too complex for a doom wad. This is doom 1 and 2 bashed together, and those aren't exactly games known for their in-depth storytelling. If I may quote the C-man himself:

 

 

I think Peter's story is more simple and straight to the point. 

Eh I guess we could use my idea but keep it simplified in carmack methods, like just simplify the story

Carmack was gently tricked by Sandy Petersen when it came to that quote. 

After Tom Hall left id Software, hiring Petersen gave Doom another (and unique) makeover, both in the aesthetic and narrative sense. The game has very much set aside the militarized aura based on the movie Alien and has taken on a cosmic horror feel. A Lovecraft fanatic and aware of the game's technical limitations, Petersen still gave the game a very narrative tone, even without the use of cutscenes or supporting text. Aware that in Lovecraftian stories horror lies in what is not seen, in the indescriptive, Petersen used and abused the play of light and shadows, abstract textures, mysterious layouts that transform the map into the monster itself. Doomguy himself was, as in the cosmic horror novels, a blank character in which the player could incorporate his own feelings. Doom is a narrative told in images and empty spaces that instigate the player's imagination, and for this reason (and many others) it is a game that has much more story than many players realize.

 

I think John Carmack's quote is much more of a fed-up response to Tom Hall's verbose "Doom Bible" than anything else. Sandy Petersen got the message, and masterfully created a story based on the strange, the disturbing, the loneliness, which became a key element in creating a believable world that the player could enter and experience .  

Edited October 31, 2023 by The Royal We

[The Royal We]

6 hours ago, GermanPeter said:

Not a bad idea, just needs more of a focus. I think explaining the merging of two different realities/ planets as demonic corruption is a good idea, but maybe you should take it a bit more light-hearted. I mean, the project is called "Amalgoom", a name that's already tongue-in-cheek, and some of the levels are called stuff like "Woof 2 It". So I think talking about cult leaders and political tensions isn't fitting at all.

I'd personally just keep it really simple and explain it as Doomguy accidentally having messed up reality when he killed the Icon of Sin or something, and now the past is repeating itself, but in a corrupted form. Maybe even do a joke at the end how it was all just a dream (explaining the dream logic), but then reveal that it might not have been a dream after all.

 

Of course that's just my idea, but maybe play more into the idea of "Wait, haven't we done this before?" That Doomguy has to go through everything all over again despite JUST having finished up his work.

 

I'd offer to whip something up, though I'm not sure if I have the time for it.

And relating to what I said in the previous post, this simple idea that the past is repeating itself, but in a corrupted form, fits perfectly within the narrative. I wouldn't even say it's a dream at the end, leaving everything even more open to interpretation.

[SpaceCat_2001]

6 minutes ago, The Royal We said:

Carmack was gently tricked by Sandy Petersen when it came to that quote. 

After Tom Hall left id Software, hiring Petersen gave Doom another (and unique) makeover, both in the aesthetic and narrative sense. The game has very much set aside the militarized aura based on the movie Alien and has taken on a cosmic horror feel. A Lovecraft fanatic and aware of the game's technical limitations, Peterson gave the game a very narrative tone, even without the use of cutscenes or supporting text. Aware that in Lovecraftian stories horror lies in what is not seen, in the indescriptive, he used and abused the play of light and shadows, abstract textures, mysterious layouts that transform the map into the monster itself. Doomguy himself was, as in the cosmic horror novels, a blank character in which the player could incorporate his own feelings. Doom is a narrative told in images and empty spaces that instigate the player's imagination, and for this reason (and many others) it is a game that has much more story than many players realize.

 

I think John Carmack's quote is much more of a fed-up response to Tom Hall's verbose "Doom Bible" than anything else.  Sandy Peterson got the message, and masterfully created a story based on the strange, the disturbing, the in loneliness, which became a key element in creating a believable world that the player could enter and experience .  

Wowie, so does this mean i kinda nailed the true doom vision in my map10? Its a very interesting perspective on doom

[The Royal We]

Just now, SpaceCat_2001 said:

Wowie, so does this mean i kinda nailed the true doom vision in my map10? Its a very interesting perspective on doom

Yes! I think you did!

[SpaceCat_2001]

4 minutes ago, The Royal We said:

Yes! I think you did!

You have played it? Im interested in what you think about it, wanna make it better as an experience. And I think when DankMetal will make the music track for it, it would become even more close to the vision of Doom

Edited October 31, 2023 by SpaceCat_2001

[Johnny Cruelty]

Hmmm to in that case, why don't we add some environmental storytelling to some maps based on the story I created

 

Like map10 could end being ambushed in a sewer tunnel

 

 @Cutman 's map20 could end in doomguy going deep into a cavern to hell

 

And map29 could end with doomguy going deep into the final area on a conveyer belt

[SpaceCat_2001]

1 minute ago, Johnny Cruelty said:

Hmmm to in that case, why don't we add some environmental storytelling to some maps based on the story I created

 

Like map10 could end being ambushed in a sewer tunnel

 

 @Cutman 's map20 could end in doomguy going deep into a cavern to hell

 

And map29 could end with doomguy going deep into the final area on a conveyer belt

I will make an ambush instead of the current map end after DankMetal finishes the song

[The Royal We]

11 minutes ago, SpaceCat_2001 said:

You have played it? Im interested in what you think about it, wanna make it better as an experience. And I think when DankMetal will make the music track for it, it would become even more close to the vision of Doom

 

I'm going to play it again and make notes. When I played it for the first time I was in a hurry.

Unfortunately I never played E1M10 to get the references, though. :(

 

10 minutes ago, Johnny Cruelty said:

Hmmm to in that case, why don't we add some environmental storytelling to some maps based on the story I created

 

Like map10 could end being ambushed in a sewer tunnel

 

 @Cutman 's map20 could end in doomguy going deep into a cavern to hell

 

And map29 could end with doomguy going deep into the final area on a conveyer belt

Dear Project Leader, perhaps this is a time to learn from Tom Hall's mistakes and understand that there are stories that are better left out rather than trying to mix them all together with pieces that don't quite fit. 

[SpaceCat_2001]

8 minutes ago, The Royal We said:

 

I'm going to play it again and make notes. When I played it for the first time I was in a hurry.

Unfortunately I never played E1M10 to get the references, though. :(

 

Dont touch E1M10 with 10 feet pole, or even from the orbite with spy satellite: E1M10 is confusing, basic and badly made, thanks god on technical level its working. The only thing that was interesting is room with yellow key. If you wanna know about, just dont play it and look through it in the editor or you can watch video with Decino suffering in it

Edited October 31, 2023 by SpaceCat_2001

[SpaceCat_2001]

Spoiler

Okay, sewers be sewers now its time for a small peek of map28

Edited October 31, 2023 by SpaceCat_2001

[DankMetal]

2 minutes ago, SpaceCat_2001 said:

Dont touch E1M10 with 10 feet pole, or even from the orbite with spy satellite: E1M10 is confusing, basic and badly made, thanks god on technical level its working. The only thing that was interesting is room with yellow key. If you wanna know about, just dont play it and look through it in the editor or you can watch video with Decino suffering in it

I recommend playing the GEC master edition version if you want to experience this shitass level. This version is a recreation for the psx version of doom, and you can play it with psydoom. The atmospheric song and the colored lightning do wonders to this level, i mean, it's not a big change, the layout is still the same, but it's better than playing the original

[Johnny Cruelty]

12 minutes ago, The Royal We said:

 

I'm going to play it again and make notes. When I played it for the first time I was in a hurry.

Unfortunately I never played E1M10 to get the references, though. :(

 

Dear Project Leader, perhaps this is a time to learn from Tom Hall's mistakes and understand that there are stories that are better left out rather than trying to mix them all together with pieces that don't quite fit. 

Yes sir

[Johnny Cruelty]

7 minutes ago, SpaceCat_2001 said:

  Hide contents

Okay, sewers be sewers now its time for a small peek of map28

So question how will this map be? Since it's a warrens like level, will it have some areas copied and pasted from doom 2s map28?

[SpaceCat_2001]

Just now, Johnny Cruelty said:

So question how will this map be? Since it's a warrens like level, will it have some areas copied and pasted from doom 2s map28?

No, I will make my own spin on it, and when I finish the map03, I will open map28 for coop mapping with DankMetal, if they want to, of course

[Johnny Cruelty]

4 minutes ago, SpaceCat_2001 said:

No, I will make my own spin on it, and when I finish the map03, I will open map28 for coop mapping with DankMetal, if they want to, of course

@DankMetal you still down?

[DankMetal]

9 minutes ago, Johnny Cruelty said:

@DankMetal you still down?

Absolutely

[The Royal We]

1 hour ago, SpaceCat_2001 said:

You have played it? Im interested in what you think about it, wanna make it better as an experience. And I think when DankMetal will make the music track for it, it would become even more close to the vision of Doom

Okay, here's my review!
Note: as I said, I tested it without having played E1M10 (but I already knew about the bad reputation). I'll watch the Decino video you recommended before testing any future versions of your map. It's also worth noting that I haven't played much of map 10 in my life, so I may have missed some references.


First, a few specific points:

- There seems to be a missing texture here:

Spoiler

- I got stuck in the final part of the level by accident (the last battle was great, though!)

Spoiler

Now, the pros:
- What a beautiful map! Very well done and detailed. A treat for the eyes: even though it was confusing at times, I didn't mind going back to places I'd already explored because they were so well done.
- The map is difficult, but well balanced. I feel it's at the same level of difficulty as the original (of course, slightly updated for those who have been playing Doom for 30 years).
- Loved the fireblu cracks. 
- Here's a point that could also be in the cons, but which may have been your intention: the map is a bit confusing. However, so were the originals. You've chosen a very difficult job: to unite a confusing and adored map with a confusing and despised one. It might be interesting to give it a little more direction, but not too much: bewilderment is in the DNA of both original maps.
- The iconic moment of the room with several zombies has been reinvented in a very balanced and creative way. It might be worth playing with the light and shapes a bit more, but as it is, it's great.

The cons:
- Perhaps because there is so much detail, some areas are ambiguous as to whether they are secrets, points to reach, or part of the map route. I only found one secret out of the five.
- At first I was a little confused by the buttons and elevators in the open area with rocks on the map, although it became clear later what they were for. It ended up distracting me a little at the start of the game. 
- I liked the fight with Cyberdemon, but I found it unrewarding in the end.
- At first I didn't understand the purpose of the blood trail that leads to the exit of the map. I went there (and died) a few times looking for secrets or a way out. I only realized it was the exit because there was a radiation suit in the final battle area (which is very, very beautiful, by the way).
- Some areas are easy to deal with by running away and letting the monsters fight each other.

That's it!
As the map is still in version 0.2, I imagine there are still things you're working on. It can be improved, but the way it is, it's already great.

[Johnny Cruelty]

@SpaceCat_2001drew messlgf a little plan to use later

[EagerBeaver]

15 hours ago, Johnny Cruelty said:

how is progress? do you have any new info?

 

MAP04 is done and ready to go, but I'm playtesting it by myself RN. I think, I'll upload it tomorrow.

[Johnny Cruelty]

5 hours ago, SpaceCat_2001 said:

Dont touch E1M10 with 10 feet pole, or even from the orbite with spy satellite: E1M10 is confusing, basic and badly made, thanks god on technical level its working. The only thing that was interesting is room with yellow key. If you wanna know about, just dont play it and look through it in the editor or you can watch video with Decino suffering in it

tbh I feel like your map is the most "OC" made on the wad, because it's basically almost like it's own thing

 

not it's a bad thing, I think it's cool