when making a multi-map wad, what order is it best to creat the maps in?

[roadworx]

i'm making a mapset and i've encountered a bit of a problem.

 

see, typically i've always thought that romero's guidelines were, in general, something that i should be following. thus, i went ahead and picked an arbitrary mapslot - map04 - to begin with, and i planned on making the first map last. however, while making that map, i came to the realization that i honestly don't really know how i'd go about making maps in a random order; for me personally, i need to know the progression of the weapons and difficulty, and i'm starting to think that maybe i should start with map01, then 2, then 3, etc. at the same time tho, i'm worried that that may cause it to be fairly apparent that my mapping style/skill is changing as the wad goes along, which i'd like to avoid. what do you guys think?

[Kappes Buur]

Making map sets for original, vanilla DOOM/2 means that the order and skill are pretty much set when you start the game. There was a launcher name UNLEASHED which could randomize the play order.

 

For GZDoom map sets you could make a MAPINFO lump to direct the game play with the order in which the maps are presented.

[Jayextee]

Make a bunch of maps. Doesn't matter. Just don't put any secret exits in at first, that can wait. What happens after this is, when you've an episode finished (either a DOOM 1 episode, or say the city maps of DOOM II) then order them roughly according to a difficulty gradient; doesn't need to be perfect, some minor peaks and troughs are good for pacing and intensity/rest period contrast, but an overall upward climb is preferred; then boom, you got yourself a map order.

[roadworx]

2 hours ago, Kappes Buur said:

Making map sets for original, vanilla DOOM/2 means that the order and skill are pretty much set when you start the game. There was a launcher name UNLEASHED which could randomize the play order.

 

For GZDoom map sets you could make a MAPINFO lump to direct the game play with the order in which the maps are presented.

no, what i'm asking is the order to actually make the maps in. i know how mapslots work lol

 

2 hours ago, Jayextee said:

Make a bunch of maps. Doesn't matter. Just don't put any secret exits in at first, that can wait. What happens after this is, when you've an episode finished (either a DOOM 1 episode, or say the city maps of DOOM II) then order them roughly according to a difficulty gradient; doesn't need to be perfect, some minor peaks and troughs are good for pacing and intensity/rest period contrast, but an overall upward climb is preferred; then boom, you got yourself a map order.

see, the issue with that is that i'm trying to go for a sort of alien vendetta or memento mori 2 vibe, where the entire mapset feels like one continuous adventure. i can't just make a bunch of maps and then order them afterwards, i gotta have a progression where the player goes from one location to the next

[Jayextee]

1 minute ago, roadworx said:

i gotta have a progression where the player goes from one location to the next

Surely it can't be too hard to edit or add start/end sections that do this after the order has been decided? I guess that does depend somewhat on your level structure, but if you map with a tendency to put these things in their own little rooms to kinda-plan for it, it's probably possible.

[Scypek2]

Maybe you should just write down an outline then! Specify which monsters and weapons should debut on which maps, which themes belong where. You can change your mind about the details later, but it should clear things up a lot. I even made an excel spreadsheet for one of my megawads.

[Chookum]

When I started making Headless Chicken and writing up its design outline, I split my wad into five episodes. I was unfamiliar with the extent to which I could stretch AA-Tex, and made one map in each episode to get a feel for how to put the textures together that would inform the feel for the other maps in the episode.

 

After getting that feel and completing a map for each episode (which respectively covers the themes of Nature, Temples, City, Space, and Heck) I moved mostly linearly through the episodes, though I did skip the order around here and there to my whims (IE: Getting a start on MAP33 and working on it in installments between other maps).

[Dark Pulse]

2 hours ago, roadworx said:

no, what i'm asking is the order to actually make the maps in. i know how mapslots work lol

Whatever order you please. That's going to vary from mapper to mapper.

 

Some prefer to do maps that have a common theme one after the other. Others would be driven nuts by that and bounce from theme to theme. Yet others would do key/"lynchpin" maps in fixed slots, then fill in the stuff between and around them.

 

There is no single way that will work for everyone. Indeed, every recommendation you get in this thread may or may not work for you, so the real answer is "whatever works best to minimize hiccups in your flow."

[Clippy]

Here what I have so far

 

Map 01: March 13 2023
Map 02: March 20 2023
Map 03: March 27 2023
Map 04: April 13 2023
Map 05: April 24 2023
Map 06: May 17 2023
Map 07: Map 21 2023
Map 08: July 15 2023
Map 09: July 24 2023
Map 10: July 1 2023
Map 11: April 22 2023
Map 12: June 6 2023
Map 13: April 9 2023
Map 14: July 30 2023
Map 15: September 2 2023
Map 16:
Map 17:
Map 18:
Map 19:
Map 20:
Map 21:
Map 22:
Map 23:
Map 24:
Map 25:
Map 26:
Map 27:
Map 28:
Map 29:
Map 30:
Map 31: August 14 2023
Map 32: September 10 2023
Map 33: September 23 2023

 

currently mostly done 16

 

do what ever feels best, especially what you are inspired to make the most at the time - I broke sequence cause I got super excited for future concepts so it's best use of energy I think

[mrthejoshmon]

For progression based wads, what I would do is come up with the exit room design and then the entrance that would take place after said exit.

Then make the levels based on those.

 

As for a MAP01, the entrance wouldn't need to match anything, so I'd say maybe actually go for MAP01 first, then if it doesn't work as a MAP01 then just make an exit suit its start.

[DNSKILL5]

This may or may not help, but I’ll say it anyways. I am working on a Spear of Destiny mapset that replaces all 21 levels. I have done it this way so far:

SOD is broken up like this:

Spoiler

 

Tunnels: Map 1-4 regular levels, map 5 boss.

 

Dungeons: Map 6-9 regular levels, map 10 boss.

 

Main Castle: Map 11-15 regular levels, map 16 boss.

 

Castle Ramparts: map 17 regular level, map 18 boss, map 19 boss (and ends game)

 

Secret levels: Map 20 & 21. 

 

I have been working on the maps in this order:

Spoiler

 

I did the secret levels first because I knew they could be designed without following any traditions. These maps could be released as stand alone levels basically. I then did the boss levels because they need to be designed with the boss confrontation in mind. Then, I did map 04 and map 12, because these levels are where the secret exit is accessed. 
 

Now, I am doing the rest of the maps, but saving maps 1-3 for last, and will do them backwards. The reason for this is that if the first two levels don’t hook the player in, they may not play beyond them. Also, if I made the first couple of levels first, I would likely feel dissatisfied with them later after finishing the rest of the levels, and would have to go back and change them, so it’s best for me to save them for last. 

 

So I would imagine it really depends on how many levels you plan to make, if there’s going to be any “break” in the gameplay (ex. Intermission text) that sort of segments your WAD into chapters, if there’s going to be secret levels, boss level(s), etc. but I do think that yes, saving the first map for last makes a lot of sense. It saves you the trouble of potentially needing to go back and alter it to make it more appealing as an opener, or perhaps you would have to tone down the difficulty if you are trying to have some sort of difficulty progression for the first few levels at all.
 

Of course, everyone is different. Some people have a vision for map 1 from the start and work from there, but I have talked with a lot of people that have agreed that when they did that, they often had to change the level late in development anyways, or they swapped the level order around and that map ended up not being the first level at all. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by DNSKILL5

[Not Jabba]

Romero knows his stuff, but I've never agreed with him on this one. If you're going for a continuous narrative, and unless you have a reason to do otherwise, I'd just make the maps in order. Maybe I'm way out of sync with everyone else, but to me, the maps toward the end of the set tend to leave the strongest impression, and a set that starts out great and ends weak is significantly worse than one that starts out weak and ends strong.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Not Jabba

[kwc]

Romero's guidelines are, well, guidelines. You can map however you please and diverge from them whenever and however you'd like to.

There are a lot of approaches to design but ultimately they are just based off of an individual's success or bias toward them, they will help you get as far as you find them useful, eventually you need to carve your own approach. Be wary of people telling you the "right way" to do things, it helps to understand what design challenges are actually being addressed with these methods rather than faithfully following solutions.
 

9 hours ago, roadworx said:

i'm worried that that may cause it to be fairly apparent that my mapping style/skill is changing as the wad goes along, which i'd like to avoid.

There is nothing stopping you from building iteratively and then returning to polish older sections later (you probably should be doing this anyway). Adding additional levels to any game is going to increase the workload exponentially for reasons like this. 

 

Main takeaway is to design the way you feel comfortable, try not to get paralyzed by the potential that something may not be perfect, because it never will be. The best anyone of us can do is have our projects be done.

If you want actionable advice... 
Judging from what you said in the OP, I'd suggest plotting a progression scheme in a document or on paper first, timebox it, and then move forward. You shouldn't expect yourself to adhere to your initial design plans ever, as you and your project will grow during development. It will always be messy and feel sloppy or broken when you're in the middle of it and plans will and should change as you move forward. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by kwc

[Individualised]

It was a bit of a different scenario when Romero was designing the levels for Doom because he was also developing the game itself. Rarely in game development will each level in the level order be developed sequentially. Romero and the other designers at id would have made a lot of different sketches for levels and worked on them intermittently at different times and a proper level order would have been created towards the end of development. Then they made a few edits after the final level order had been decided in order to create a proper difficulty ramp for the levels.

[Xaser]

I'm not totally sure I understand the references to MM2 and AV here -- there's only a small handful of direct map transitions (e.g. AV03->AV04 and AV09->AV10), and otherwise there isn't any sort of strict "consistency" between locations or themes between neighboring maps (or even any sort of "episode theming", really -- Clandestine Complex sits right next to Demonic Hordes :P ). If you want to go for something MM2-like (which I know you are :P ), you can absolutely get away with making the maps first and then rearranging them "in post", 'cause that's totally the vibe of the wad.

 

That said, as lots of folks have posted here already, planning things out in advance totally works too. For me I often adopt a hybrid approach where I'll plan a set of map slots in order (e.g. jot down map names and concepts in some defined order), so things like weapon and enemy progression get figured out, but I don't actually make them in order -- I'll map in whatever random order strikes my fancy, and often times have multiple maps in progress simultaneously 'cause that's how the Xaserbrain works (or doesn't, as it were).

 

Lots of ways to slice this, and none of them go counter to the project goals IMO.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Xaser

[Gez]

15 hours ago, roadworx said:

see, typically i've always thought that romero's guidelines were, in general, something that i should be following. thus, i went ahead and picked an arbitrary mapslot - map04 - to begin with, and i planned on making the first map last

I don't think this is especially relevant to mapping now.

 

Back then, for Romero, Doom mapping was a new skill -- after all, Doom was the first Doom engine game. Romero's idea of making E1M1 last meant that it'd be a map done once he'd have "leveled up" his Doom mapping skill as much as possible, so as to make the best possible start map (which is a very different notion from "the best possible map").

 

Nowadays, people already know how to play Doom. At least those that are likely to download and play what you make are. Also they don't really need to be wowed by an introductory map that shows them how advanced the Doom engine is compared to the games they played before; because well, it's been nearly 30 years now...

[roadworx]

11 hours ago, Xaser said:

I'm not totally sure I understand the references to MM2 and AV here -- there's only a small handful of direct map transitions (e.g. AV03->AV04 and AV09->AV10), and otherwise there isn't any sort of strict "consistency" between locations or themes between neighboring maps (or even any sort of "episode theming", really -- Clandestine Complex sits right next to Demonic Hordes :P ). If you want to go for something MM2-like (which I know you are :P ), you can absolutely get away with making the maps first and then rearranging them "in post", 'cause that's totally the vibe of the wad.

 

That said, as lots of folks have posted here already, planning things out in advance totally works too. For me I often adopt a hybrid approach where I'll plan a set of map slots in order (e.g. jot down map names and concepts in some defined order), so things like weapon and enemy progression get figured out, but I don't actually make them in order -- I'll map in whatever random order strikes my fancy, and often times have multiple maps in progress simultaneously 'cause that's how the Xaserbrain works (or doesn't, as it were).

 

Lots of ways to slice this, and none of them go counter to the project goals IMO.

oh no, i'm not talking about direct transitions - god no, i'd hate doing that. it's more that the themes of the maps are fairly consistent is all, and seeing as how mm2 has a little story to go along with each map, i figured that maybe i'd do something similar, albeit less disjointed. i'm just overthinking the shit out of all of this tbh; at this point i'm pretty sure i just need to chill tf out and go with the flow instead of forcing myself to do everything all at once

 

either way, i appreciate everyone's advice. i'm gonna try to force myself to stop being all over the place with this now

Edited October 6, 2023 by roadworx

[NoWits]

Do them in this order:

 

map32
map08
map13
map28
map30
map17
map21
map11
map24
map12
map16
map02
map10
map19
map15
map18
map26
map27
map01
map25
map04
map31
map14
map20
map22
map06
map05
map07
map03
map29
map09
map23

[OliveTree]

16 minutes ago, NoWits said:

Do them in this order:

 

map32
map08
map13
map28
map30
map17
map21
map11
map24
map12
map16
map02
map10
map19
map15
map18
map26
map27
map01
map25
map04
map31
map14
map20
map22
map06
map05
map07
map03
map29
map09
map23

any rationale behind this?

 

[Stabbey]

8 minutes ago, OliveTree said:

any rationale behind this?

 

 

it's a joke

[TheHambourgeois]

I make mine in order, then secret maps last, personally

Occasionally I will revisit one of the earlier ones and replace it. As others have said unless everything is designed specifically for pistol start it can cause problems if you are being deliberate about the weapon acquisition rate but jumping around all the time

e: actually as others have brought up also, a lot of this issue can be solved with planning. even though I mapped in chronological order for Condemned I had a general idea of what I wanted to do up to map 4 when I started mapping. Have some layouts made for another project that I may get to eventually or whatever. That may give you more lee-way to jump around

Edited October 6, 2023 by TheHambourgeois

[Sesamia]

When making maps that blend into each other, I always make them in order and pre-plan the weapon progression.  Monster progression will sometimes get planned out ahead, but I mostly do whatever feels right so I have some leeway.

 

Something I've done numerous times is go back to earlier maps and see if they're not measuring up to later maps, or if there's something obvious that I can point to and say "I would have done this differently with my current knowledge and habits, so let's just change it now".  This turns into more time spent in a level editor, but I don't mind.

 

Something I've done in the past is go through each map in the opposite order that I make them in.  As an example:

 

Start with MAP01 and end at MAP07.

Go back through MAP06 and end at MAP01 and see if there's anything I want to change.

 

Eventually I'll draw a hard line and stop making changes.  If I didn't, then I would probably never finish most of my maps.

[Chookum]

I decided to sit down and drill down into how I went about building Headless Chicken. I kept dates and notes as I built the maps.

Here's what I came up with after doing spreadsheets to it. This chart covers development and release.

 

Post-release patches were not as well documented.

[NightRiding Doom]

Been meaning to comment on this. 

 

You can not force creativity. You can only guide it. As a result, this question does not have one true answer. 

You can start of with maps that take a while to complete and end up in the middle of the multi-map wad, giving that map some rest while you work on something else. Multi-wads take organized, concentrated effort, and most of the organization comes after the fact. However, some resemblance of continuity can be maintained by having a theme for each episode of the map. It does help to work on multiple projects, where the multi-wad is your main effort, but every now and then you do for a community project, create a single level or speedmap something to avoid getting cock blocked by your own imagination.  You can even play maps of other people or different games entirely just to break the routine of mapping and get some more creativity flowing. 

 

I have, so far, not published a multi-map wad yet. However, I am working on a project that currently has only one map, but will end (by current plan) with a total of 3 or 5 maps. And the map I'm working on, just due to it's scope, may end up in any slot, because I do not have another map yet. 

 

Despite that, as Chookums graph  is showing, you can start multiple maps on day 1, and end up taking all of them in different directions over time, ending them being placed in a much more different order. 

 

Romero used his rules to construct his workflow. You have to create your own rules set to construct your own workflow. That takes time. And you will always end up using one or two ideas from someone else as your staple as well as grabbing some mapping tropes from someone elses map you played.

 

TL;DR: Every mapper creates their own rules set to help them with their own workflow during their multi-map project.  It is always good to ask opinions. But always make sure you like what you are doing. It is okay to disregard anything and everything that may hinder you in your hobby. After all, this is a hobby.

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by tumedaskihutaja_37685