If you could pick one Doom 2 enemy and put it in the first Doom

[Psychagogue]

which one would it be and why?

[Lila Feuer]

The Revenant, he's not super tanky (100 less health than Caco) and has a powerful projectile (more-so than the Baron) that has the ability to sometimes track, an interesting behavior that is sorely lacking in Doom 1 games.

[Lucius Wooding]

I'd say the pain elemental, even though it'd be mean as hell with no SSG. The archvile kind of needs the SSG too much to make a good area denial monster, but the PE can essentially do that by pinning you down effectively or taking your full attention to go after. If you go into its line of sight, it's about as effective at making your life hell as anything, so it can be a bit of a pseudo archvile that's more of a slow burn and drain on your ammo.

 

My vision for Doom 1 combat includes a lot more rockets and plasma in general and the PE makes rockets a bit riskier, making it an effective choice to make fights tricky. It also places a heavy drain on your chaingun ammo, which is very valuable in Doom 1. You could also make some very interesting Tyson gameplay with it since the berserk is a highly effective but risky weapon against it and it'd punish indecision similarly to an archvile. And then you can even make the player spam the BFG to get rid of a group of them where any other non boss monster would be fine to deal with using rockets. It'd also punish the player for using the shotgun somewhat by being tough to stunlock, which makes it unique among Doom 1 enemies. Explosive barrels would also be an effective design feature to use against them which IMO should be relied upon more in Doom 1 due to the lack of SSG and fewer high tier weapons.

[TheCaneOfTheTophat]

The Hell Knight. When it comes to Doom 1, there's no choice for a slow glass cannon. Barons are way too tanky, and Cacodemons, while not as tanky, don't have projectiles as hard-hitting as noble hellfire. Not to mention they can fly, which can be undesirable for some encounters. The Hell Knight is not too tanky, has a powerful projectile, and is slow, perfect for Doom 1's style of gameplay. Everything else feels too fast or makes combat too frenetic for Doom 1, considering the lack of SSG.

[Lila Feuer]

 

17 minutes ago, TheCaneOfTheTophat said:

Everything else feels too fast or makes combat too frenetic for Doom 1, considering the lack of SSG.

The chaingun is effective at suppressing a Revenant, and the shotgun isn't any worse than it was against the Nightmare Spectre in PSX Doom, also with 300 health.

[MFG38]

Seconding @TheCaneOfTheTophat's comment. Barons are just kinda tedious to take down, especially with only a shotgun or chaingun. They work in E1M8 thanks to their health, but in E2/3, they honestly become a nuisance more than anything else. With HKs replacing some of the barons in the late game, that would less so be the case.

[RjY]

The answer is clear IMO, to be placed where its picture already adorns the walls!

 

 

With rarity appropriate to that of a mini-boss, matching that of the appearance of the wall portrait, which would act as a warning in the same way the other one actually does; also making sure the player has a chance to find a powerful weapon before reaching the monster.

 

I think the areas where MARBFAC2 is found out in the open on E3M5 and E2M5 are designed as boss arena fights with pillars to hide behind and such where it is unlikely you would be facing foes other than one or two archviles simultaneously. I think the two portraits in the curved corridor inside the entrance of the Unholy Cathedral are a warning of what you will face if you carry on that way (meaning archviles were likely placed in the eastern tower alcove in the central arena). I think it is most likely the portrait on the north blue door on E3M7 implies there will be a healer stalking you in the blood maze beyond: I hazard a guess that is where the piece of music got its name. As for weapons you would have the BFG from E3M3 for the hypothetical residents of the central arena in E3M5, the imagined healer stalking E3M7's maze, and at least a rocket launcher and/or plasma gun by the time of E2M5 for around the hall of pillars. So I don't agree with Lucius, I don't think the super shotgun is needed, at least not for this imagination of monster placement might-have-beens.

 

[No-Man Baugh]

the Heavy Weapons Dude!

It might just've been what little of PSX Doom that I played, but they seem like a pretty natural fit for a techbase along with the rest of the undead and one of the few D2 enemies that can be taken down swiftly enough without a power weapon

[Foxstiel]

Chaingunners, obviously they fit with the other undead, or hell knights as they act as a great inbetween of imps and barons, strong attacks, but easy to kill.

The Archvile could be a sort of boss in the end of episode 4, a teaser into the new monsters of doom 2, with the map being built around his devil magicks, so lots of dead corpses to revive i suppose.

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Foxstiel
yea

[DynamiteKaitorn]

Awachnotwon because UwU.

[Betelgeuse]

Arcvhiles, I think it would be it harder (obviously).

But I like arcviles

[Rudolph]

2 hours ago, No-Man Baugh said:

the Heavy Weapons Dude!

It might just've been what little of PSX Doom that I played, but they seem like a pretty natural fit for a techbase along with the rest of the undead and one of the few D2 enemies that can be taken down swiftly enough without a power weapon

Also, most importantly, they drop the Chaingun. In hindsight, it is odd that they were not part of Doom 1 to begin with.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

Arachnotrons would fit well thematically, building up to the final boss.

[Lila Feuer]

2 hours ago, Foxstiel said:

 

The Archvile could be a sort of boss in the end of episode 4, a teaser into the new monsters of doom 2, with the map being built around his devil magicks, so lots of dead corpses to revive i suppose.

 

 

I actually really like this idea tbh, and it could exploit the ghost monster glitch. Just imagine how terrifying this would've been to players coming off of Doom II only to be facing monsters the vile raises that don't seem to die. You can almost imagine Romero grinning evilly being the first one to put this idea to use.

[thiccyosh]

I think a lot of Ultimate Doom maps could've profited by either using the Revenant or Hell Knight. Off the top of my head I can only think of E3M5 and how less crap that map would be if most if not all Barons were replaced by Revs and HKs. But if there only can be one winner, it would be the Revenant for me.

 

Arch-Viles would've been a cool addition too, but I imagine can be tedious to fight with the Shotgun or Chaingun only. At least that's the case for Barons, and only lunatics would ever single barrel shotgun a Cyber :P. So Archies wouldn't so common (other than Episode 4 probably.), more sparingly used like in Doom 2. But still would've spiced up a lot of maps nontheless. E4M6 or E3M7 with Archies sounds like fun.

[DNSKILL5]

Hell Knight, and have only had the Barons in E1M8. This would’ve made them as much of a surprise as seeing the cyberdemon and spider mastermind more often in Doom II. 
 

Though as others have already alluded to, another option would be the Archvile as an EP4 multiple boss encounter since one of the walls in Doom looks like the face of an Archvile. I also think the last level of episode 4 would’ve been more interesting encountering archviles than battling the same bosses from previous episodes.  

[Maribo]

Revenant or Archvile are far and away the best candidates. Revenants fill a much-needed glass cannon slot in the bestiary and among the original Doom roster, the duality of their projectile behavior adds more than the rest of the cast. Archviles just add so much to the mix with their line of sight attack method and resurrection ability. Like people have said, they would have had an amazing impact if a few were tossed into a room full of corpses for a boss finale, along with the thematic link to the marble textures.

 

Hell Knights are just weaker Barons... which is mostly a waste of the slot, unless you want to play by the rules of keeping the added enemy strictly in line with the capabilities of the original roster, in which case it's probably the most fitting addition. Mancubi and Arachnotrons would suffer too much from their quirks, being too big and clunky for their own good makes them more niche in their usability. Arachnos do get points for being thematically appropriate in relation to the Mastermind, though. Chaingunners.... not really a bad pick but Doom isn't really hurting for hitscan additions in comparison to others. Pain Elementals are honestly something I can't properly weigh in this scenario. They're a very funky and unique monster, I imagine they'd slot a bit behind Revenants and Archviles in how useful they'd be in relation to the others.

[Cutman 999]

Archvile. He is perfection even without a super shotgun. Also, the marble texture with the archvile's face wasn't in a lot of places in doom 1?

Edited October 7, 2023 by Cutman 999

[Downcologo one]

hell knight or aracnotron 

[Hebonky]

Hell knights, because shotgunning baron spam sucked.

[Vermil]

Maybe this thread should have been 'what Doom2 monster would you not have added to Doom1'.

 

Poor Mancubus feels left out.

[Lila Feuer]

The poor Fatso couldn't fit in those cramped rooms or navigate those narrow hallways. Friggin' ableist UAC blueprint contractors.

[roadworx]

several people have suggested arachnotrons, and they have larger widths than mancubi. freakin neenerhead

Edited October 7, 2023 by roadworx

[SealSpace]

Good question...

 

Hell Knight? 

 

Since they're just lesser Barons of Hell. And they seem to fit the original Doom way more than Doom II.

Edited October 7, 2023 by SealSpace

[Graf Zahl]

Definitely the Hell Knight. He fills a missing gap.

 

Definitely not the Revenant because without an SSG he's a genuine menace. Besides, no other monster has screwed as many Doom 2 maps. :P

 

[Lila Feuer]

Does D1 really need another Imp with more health and damaging fireball?

 

Besides using the shotgun in a pinch every other weapon minus a chainsaw will murder the boner quickly. Outside of the Cyberdemon no other monster in D1 makes you do a dance.

[SealSpace]

10 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

Does D1 really need another Imp with more health and damaging fireball?

 

Besides using the shotgun in a pinch every other weapon minus a chainsaw will murder the boner quickly. Outside of the Cyberdemon no other monster in D1 makes you do a dance.

Well if the alternatives are a continuously firing hitscan version of the zombieman/shotgun guy, a flying creature that can spawn lost souls endlessly and can spawn three of them upon death, a smaller weaker continuously firing projectile-based version of the spiderdemon, a dude with flying missiles some of which can home in on you and can smack your ass at melee range, a giant tub of guts that can spray fiery projectiles in spread shots, and a fast-running low-pain-chance creature that can burn and even potentially explode your ass via hitscan targeting you from any distance it catches you in its line of sight if you either don't kill it, stun it, or hide behind cover within just under 3 seconds, but revive the corpses of lesser enemies nearby in its proximity...

 

then I believe that's a resounding yes.   

 

the Hell Knight is the most innocuous and least cheap enemy to fight compared to all these guys. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by SealSpace

[DNSKILL5]

I feel the other demons added to doom 2 would not have left as big of impressions had they been included in the first game. The HK could’ve been used instead of the Baron for ep2-4, making the barons themselves seem more significant as boss characters for the first game. Sort of like the Battlelord who only appeared once and the Battlelord Sentries who appeared anywhere else after E1L5 in Duke 3D. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by DNSKILL5

[Captain Keen]

This is a cool topic. Hell Knight for me, though if I could, I’d add three… Hell Knights, Chaingunners and Arachnotrons. And as some posters have suggested, replace all Barons in E2-4 with Hell Knights, leaving the Barons as bosses for E1M8 only. The chaingunners I’d use sparingly, and the Arachnotrons would be a nice build up to the final boss, and I could see how they’d be effective in a map like Mt. Erebus. One of the few flaws with the first Doom is it’s missing a greater variety of mid tier enemies.

 

How hard would it be to create an alternate version of the Ultimate Doom that adds a few Doom II enemies into it but otherwise leaves everything else the same?

[Nefelibeta]

3 hours ago, Maribo said:

Hell Knights are just weaker Barons...

Quite a shame that no Doom1 maps ultilize the gimmick of using barrels/crushers to decrease monsters' health before releasing them heh