If you could pick one Doom 2 enemy and put it in the first Doom

[banjiepixel]

Hell Knight would had been the most natural fit. Easiest to add as it is basically mostly a copy paste job of Baron of Hell. And just simply swapping Baron with Knight would had made many encounters more balanced and smooth and there would had be more natural transition to throwing Barons in the mix when needed. Hell Knight is also least exciting of new monsters introduced by Doom 2 so having them in Doom 1 wouldn't had taken too much away from the impact of the much improved sequel.

 

Next in line probably would be Chaingunner, but they were great way to downgrade Chaingun to more common weapon status so SSG could take it's place as the weapon to search for early in the game/map in Doom 2.

 

Mancubus, Arachnotron and Arch-vile are automatically not a good fit because how amazing their reveals were in Doom 2. I also feel like Pain Elemental and Revenant would had been too complex for the first Doom game and people wouldn't had been ready to face them. Mancubus, Arachnotron and Revenant are also kinda like distant weaker variants of bosses of Doom 1, Cyberdemon, Spider Mastermind and Baron of Hell with a fun new twist, so they work best as a package deal. And Painelemental is Cacodemon variant with a new twist so fits better with Doom 2 monsters while the variants existing in Doom 1 would had been more direct copies.

 

Pinkie already had Spectre as it's variant in Doom 1 so Hell Knight would had natural fit to be in the game by being very direct variant of Baron of Hell. Baron with less health would had worked nicely when the game already had also version of Pinkie that was just much harder to see. It's much nicer there to be a pair of variant monsters instead of just one.

 

Optimally Hell Knight could had been added very easily to Ultimate Doom and used in Thy Flesh Consumed, probably improving the episode alot and especially to give it less harsh beginning.

Edited October 7, 2023 by banjiepixel

[Noiser]

The Revenant feels like the obvious choice to me. It's one of the most interesting monsters in the D2 set while not being a tank like the Mancubus or the Arch-Vile.

The Hell Knight is an awful choice imo, D1 already is filled with single projectiles enemies - no need for another one. On the other hand, the Arachnotron is problematic in a sense since it would spoil the final boss of the game (maybe it would work on E4).

(The Chaingunner also would fit very well)

Edited October 9, 2023 by Noiser

[SealSpace]

7 hours ago, Captain Keen said:

This is a cool topic. Hell Knight for me, though if I could, I’d add three… Hell Knights, Chaingunners and Arachnotrons. And as some posters have suggested, replace all Barons in E2-4 with Hell Knights, leaving the Barons as bosses for E1M8 only. The chaingunners I’d use sparingly, and the Arachnotrons would be a nice build up to the final boss, and I could see how they’d be effective in a map like Mt. Erebus. One of the few flaws with the first Doom is it’s missing a greater variety of mid tier enemies.

 

How hard would it be to create an alternate version of the Ultimate Doom that adds a few Doom II enemies into it but otherwise leaves everything else the same?

You know restricting the presence of Barons to their right status of boss enemies while letting Hell Knights take most of their place in the original Doom would actually be a pretty splendid idea. 

[Lila Feuer]

I smell community project. ID2MWID1 (If Doom 2 Monsters Were In Doom 1) then everyone can decide where they think the extra seven monsters should go in episodic order that's faithful to the original themes (base, infested base, hell, and whatever episode 4 is suppose to be.)

[baja blast rd.]

10 hours ago, SealSpace said:

Well if the alternatives are a continuously firing hitscan version of the zombieman/shotgun guy, a flying creature that can spawn lost souls endlessly and can spawn three of them upon death, a smaller weaker continuously firing projectile-based version of the spiderdemon, a dude with flying missiles some of which can home in on you and can smack your ass at melee range, a giant tub of guts that can spray fiery projectiles in spread shots, and a fast-running low-pain-chance creature that can burn and even potentially explode your ass via hitscan targeting you from any distance it catches you in its line of sight if you either don't kill it, stun it, or hide behind cover within just under 3 seconds, but revive the corpses of lesser enemies nearby in its proximity...

 

then I believe that's a resounding yes.   

 

the Hell Knight is the most innocuous and least cheap enemy to fight compared to all these guys. 

 

Doom 1 is not hurting for powerful enemies with a giant flaming head that can fly and harass you on narrow catwalks you can barely move on, a giant non-flaming head that can fly and harass you on narrow catwalks you can barely move on and also fire projectiles, a camouflaged zombie with a completely undodgeable attack that can do 150% more damage than it has health, a big pink goat with heaps of HP that can pin you in a corner and scratch you to death, an even bigger brown goat that can fire a volley a rockets even though just one of them can one-shot a very healthy player, a giant spider BRAIN that has a much higher intellect than even the wisest players, a pink monstrosity that blocks your path and wastes all your shotgun ammo, a ghost that even Zeromaster doesn't know what it looks like, a brown clawed enemy that can shred you to ribbons by repeatedly attacking in melee range with no delay, a green-haired zombie that also has a completely undodgeable attack and doesn't even drop a weapon that you can use, and a green cylinder that disguises itself as a pool of nukage but blows up when you punch it close up. 

[Lila Feuer]

"Doom Was Kinda Bullshit: An Essay by baja blast rd."

[SealSpace]

13 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

 

Doom 1 is not hurting for powerful enemies with a giant flaming head that can fly and harass you on narrow catwalks you can barely move on, a giant non-flaming head that can fly and harass you on narrow catwalks you can barely move on and also fire projectiles, a camouflaged zombie with a completely undodgeable attack that can do 150% more damage than it has health, a big pink goat with heaps of HP that can pin you in a corner and scratch you to death, an even bigger brown goat that can fire a volley a rockets even though just one of them can one-shot a very healthy player, a giant spider BRAIN that has a much higher intellect than even the wisest players, a pink monstrosity that blocks your path and wastes all your shotgun ammo, a ghost that even Zeromaster doesn't know what it looks like, a brown clawed enemy that can shred you to ribbons by repeatedly attacking in melee range with no delay, a green-haired zombie that also has a completely undodgeable attack and doesn't even drop a weapon that you can use, and a green cylinder that disguises itself as a pool of nukage but blows up when you punch it close up. 

Not seeing how most of those are an actual threat compared to an Archvile, swathes of Chaingunners, a Pain Elemental, a Revenant, a Mancubus, or swathes of Arachnotrons.

 

But okay.

[banjiepixel]

There is generally two ways to look at this topic. There is the historical perspective, basically what if Ultimate Doom had included one Doom 2 monster as a bonus for EP4. And then there is the more modern perspective of what Doom 2 monster a mapper would like to use in Doom 1 maps.  Historical perspective probably leans more on adding Hell Knight being the answer as it is most minor change to the gameplay and takes away least from the impact of Doom 2 while more modern perspective leans more on being able to add more variety for mapping purposes and that means the more unique Doom 2 only monsters get the advantage.

 

Hell Knight keeps things simple, as things in Doom 1 should be and would be a direct improvement allowing more balanced monster encounters. And EP4 would had been perfect for introducing Hell Knights as a bonus enemy included with Ultimate Doom. And it would had been amazing to see how much even better Sigil would had turned out to be if it could had used Hell Knights.

[SealSpace]

6 hours ago, banjiepixel said:

There is generally two ways to look at this topic. There is the historical perspective, basically what if Ultimate Doom had included one Doom 2 monster as a bonus for EP4. And then there is the more modern perspective of what Doom 2 monster a mapper would like to use in Doom 1 maps.  Historical perspective probably leans more on adding Hell Knight being the answer as it is most minor change to the gameplay and takes away least from the impact of Doom 2 while more modern perspective leans more on being able to add more variety for mapping purposes and that means the more unique Doom 2 only monsters get the advantage.

 

Hell Knight keeps things simple, as things in Doom 1 should be and would be a direct improvement allowing more balanced monster encounters. And EP4 would had been perfect for introducing Hell Knights as a bonus enemy included with Ultimate Doom. And it would had been amazing to see how much even better Sigil would had turned out to be if it could had used Hell Knights.

 

Agreed, but for a new enemy to be included in "Thy Flesh Consumed"... the Hell Knight would be the most underwhelming especially for a final monster to be added, but I think there is where a Chaingunner would make the best retrospective entrance.

[sophsoph316]

probably the archvile. it'd be cool if he showed up as like a mini-boss

[banjiepixel]

1 hour ago, SealSpace said:

 

Agreed, but for a new enemy to be included in "Thy Flesh Consumed"... the Hell Knight would be the most underwhelming especially for a final monster to be added, but I think there is where a Chaingunner would make the best retrospective entrance.

 

It would be just a bonus monster mostly to improve overall functionality and balance so being underwhelming compared to other options is fine, especially since Hell Knight does fit in best with existing Doom 1 gameplay. It would had been also much better than no bonus monster from Doom 2 at all. Hell Knight would had beem best monster to be added purely from the utilitarian perpective.

 

Not only Hell Knight reuses more of the existing Doom functionality than the Chaingunner, issue is that jump from fighting Cacodemon to fighting Baron of Hell is too big in Doom 1 and Chaingunner as a more low level monster doesn't help that issue in any way. Hell Knight AND Chaingunner would had been the best two monsters to include together but minimalistic improvement of adding Hell Knight is the most practical choice because only one Doom 2 monster can be added.

 

And it is the Thy Flesh Consumed that starts to really show limitations of there not being monster between Caco and Baron in Doom 1. Just by simply being able to often replacing Baron with a Knight or two would actually create smoother and more challenging gameplay. Hell Knight was the most underwhelming new monster added to Doom 2 and adding them to Doom 1 would give them much bigger impact as a added monster. Hell Knight does get the priority in my opinion because how much they should had been included in the original Doom 1 monster roster back in the 1993.

 

Doom 1 needs Hell Knight more than any other new monster from Doom 2 and also much more than Doom 2 itself needs Hell Knight.

[june gloom]

I always thought Hell Knights were the ideal choice of mid-level enemy.

[LoatharMDPhD]

// Arachnotrons...

[SealSpace]

13 hours ago, banjiepixel said:

 

It would be just a bonus monster mostly to improve overall functionality and balance so being underwhelming compared to other options is fine, especially since Hell Knight does fit in best with existing Doom 1 gameplay. It would had been also much better than no bonus monster from Doom 2 at all. Hell Knight would had beem best monster to be added purely from the utilitarian perpective.

 

Not only Hell Knight reuses more of the existing Doom functionality than the Chaingunner, issue is that jump from fighting Cacodemon to fighting Baron of Hell is too big in Doom 1 and Chaingunner as a more low level monster doesn't help that issue in any way. Hell Knight AND Chaingunner would had been the best two monsters to include together but minimalistic improvement of adding Hell Knight is the most practical choice because only one Doom 2 monster can be added.

 

And it is the Thy Flesh Consumed that starts to really show limitations of there not being monster between Caco and Baron in Doom 1. Just by simply being able to often replacing Baron with a Knight or two would actually create smoother and more challenging gameplay. Hell Knight was the most underwhelming new monster added to Doom 2 and adding them to Doom 1 would give them much bigger impact as a added monster. Hell Knight does get the priority in my opinion because how much they should had been included in the original Doom 1 monster roster back in the 1993.

 

Doom 1 needs Hell Knight more than any other new monster from Doom 2 and also much more than Doom 2 itself needs Hell Knight.

Yeah what you said basically bro.

 

Hell Knights are basically discount Barons, which is they're underwhelming in Doom 2, but would have had great balancing potential for Doom 1 in the pragmatic sense of all things in my opinion. 

 

Any other Doom 2 monster would have wrecked and fucked over Doom 1.

[banjiepixel]

4 hours ago, SealSpace said:

Hell Knights are basically discount Barons, which is they're underwhelming in Doom 2, but would have had great balancing potential for Doom 1 in the pragmatic sense of all things in my opinion.

 

When you really think about it, Doom 2 really overcorrected the biggest flaw of Doom 1. Not only did they add the much needed discount Barons, they added three much more unique monsters of generally similar tier (Rev,  Manc and Arachno) to the game. And on top of that, they added SSG to the game that made dealing with Barons and even other Doom 1 bosses managable without RL, Plasma Rifle or BFG and gave it to you in second level of the game, even before you get a Chaingun. Doom 2 would had suffered actually very little if it didn't have Hell Knights.

 

If they weren't simplest and probably the first Doom 2 monster to be created, Doom 2 even might not had included them. Also I really wish that atleast the Hell Knight sprites would had been added to the Ultimate Doom IWAD among the other Doom 2 sprites that ended up to be included, like the Arachnotron plasma balls so there would be atleast a legal way to add Hell Knight into Doom 1 with just some Dehacked work and reusing Baron sounds.

[bofu]

I like all the answers in this thread that are more than just dismissive "none" answers or shooting down other people's ideas. Any of the enemies could have worked with the right level design, and I've seen good arguments for all of them in this thread.

 

You know, minus the Wolfenstein SS, Keen dolls, and Icon of Sin.