So, GZDoom has replaced its sector light options...

[akinata]

4 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

I would indeed have my mind blown about this given it doesn't happen. See this may come as a surprise to you but I already check the Steam forums, being a developer of many Nightdive games I actually check the forums of many games on schedule, this includes Doom 1 and 2 because I also look at Doom64 and just cover by bases, and surprise nothing there at all.

Now if this is happening on Discord, well perhaps telling your friends that if they want something changed, they need to post in in a visible place. Kinda useless on a hidden private discord.

you can think this forum and zdoom forum represent all the doom players opinion all you want, i don't care.
this is a pointless conversation about forums popularity.

[Kinsie]

1 hour ago, akinata said:

you can think this forum and zdoom forum represent all the doom players opinion all you want, i don't care.
this is a pointless conversation about forums popularity.

You're the one who bought it up!

[akinata]

1 hour ago, Kinsie said:

You're the one who bought it up!

 

On 6/15/2024 at 4:10 AM, Blzut3 said:

I'm pretty sure there's around three of you that consider this option "essential."  Most of the people that made complaints were complaining about not being able to use it as a hack to increase brightness (and are more or less satisfied with the autoexec option because they aren't changing between modes for any reason).  At the very least searching the forums don't turn up anyone complaining since a few weeks after 4.11 was released except for the recent bumps.

^^^^^^^^^^

that's what started it.

[dpJudas]

7 hours ago, Blzut3 said:

Oh this was a recentish change? Somehow I never noticed so I assumed it was a way back ZDoom change once it was pointed out.

 

I can't say I agree with the logic to retain it just to prove a point. Seems like needless confusion for marginal/debatable benefit.

ZDoom (Randi) did also make changes the light calculations as well, but my comments back then wasn't about that. The original Doom light calculations differ between flats and walls, which is what I broke and then put back in the vanilla light mode. As for keeping it or not, I don't have a problem with it being removed again. Its not in my power to decide such things though.

 

6 hours ago, Shepardus said:

That's what I would have done as well; seems like a pretty sudden shift to go from not only supporting, but defaulting to the "wrong" option, to treating the whole thing as a mistake and trying to brush it under the rug.

I don't know what you mean by sudden shift. My stance on these things haven't changed. I've contributed a lot of things to GZDoom but I don't have power to change the defaults of the source port. The lightmode CVAR changes weren't done by me. There seems to be this misunderstanding that all the GZDoom contributors is some unified group of people all having the same opinions and you can read what that opinion based on what is in GZDoom - that's not how open source projects work.

[Shepardus]

19 minutes ago, dpJudas said:

I don't know what you mean by sudden shift. My stance on these things haven't changed. I've contributed a lot of things to GZDoom but I don't have power to change the defaults of the source port. The lightmode CVAR changes weren't done by me. There seems to be this misunderstanding that all the GZDoom contributors is some unified group of people all having the same opinions and you can read what that opinion based on what is in GZDoom - that's not how open source projects work.

I'm not saying that your stance shifted or that you were responsible for making this change, I'm saying that the source port itself went straight from having Dark as the default to discouraging people from using it at all.

[Blzut3]

7 hours ago, akinata said:

here is not one reason for zandronum devs to even think of doing the same anti player friendly act of removing options inside the menu.

gl_lightmode is covered by sv_forcegldefaults so they actually don't care that much about the user having the choice to customize this as in competitive play it can be considered a cheat.  I'm not familiar with the QZandronum folks so can't remotely comment on that.

 

Anyhow I think we're getting to the point where we're asking the same questions since you reject the explanation, so there's not much left to add.

[Professor Hastig]

16 hours ago, akinata said:

you would be mindblowed then to see the amount of ppl who just stick around discord or steam to exchange opinion instead of going on official forums to have better visibility for the devs...
no one is arguing about changing the lighting system. we are talking about putting back a setting that already exist, inside the menu, for QOL purpose.

 

Let's just be realistic and look at the number of people voicing complaints, both at the forums and on Discord.

My impression here is that is is a small number in the lower two-digit range at most who just got too attached to a specific setting that strays far too much from what is to be considered 'proper'.

 

Does this really warrant a menu option? There's already far too many menu options and every time a discussion starts to streamline and condense the menu there are endless discussions like this where a small group of people cannot accept that what's in their opinion the most important menu option in the world (TM) is in reality a fringe setting that's never being touched by more than 99.9% of all users.

[RataUnderground]

It's curious how much digital ink was poured into this thread for an option from which I hardly notice any difference when playing. My only problem, last year and now, is that Software, Vanilla and Classic (faster) are three names that seem to say exactly the same thing, and also as I understand it the default option is not the "correct" one in terms of fidelity to the Original Doom.

 

On the other hand, and although it is a bit offtopic, how can I make gameplay options like "freelook off" stay saved? GzDoom is not the sourceport I use the most, but sometimes I am forced to use it and I always have to change these options when starting the game.

[Shepardus]

5 minutes ago, RataUnderground said:

On the other hand, and although it is a bit offtopic, how can I make gameplay options like "freelook off" stay saved? GzDoom is not the sourceport I use the most, but sometimes I am forced to use it and I always have to change these options when starting the game.

You can set gameplay flags at startup with an autoexec.cfg file. Either set all the flags with dmflags/dmflags2, or set individual flags by name. For freelook specifically it's probably easier to turn "Always Mouselook" off in mouse options.

[akinata]

11 hours ago, Blzut3 said:

gl_lightmode is covered by sv_forcegldefaults so they actually don't care that much about the user having the choice to customize this as in competitive play it can be considered a cheat.  I'm not familiar with the QZandronum folks so can't remotely comment on that.

 

Anyhow I think we're getting to the point where we're asking the same questions since you reject the explanation, so there's not much left to add.

what are you saying exactly? they got rid of dark light mode so that people don't cheat in competions?
sorry i do not follow...

[akinata]

7 hours ago, Professor Hastig said:

 

Let's just be realistic and look at the number of people voicing complaints, both at the forums and on Discord.

My impression here is that is is a small number in the lower two-digit range at most who just got too attached to a specific setting that strays far too much from what is to be considered 'proper'.

 

Does this really warrant a menu option? There's already far too many menu options and every time a discussion starts to streamline and condense the menu there are endless discussions like this where a small group of people cannot accept that what's in their opinion the most important menu option in the world (TM) is in reality a fringe setting that's never being touched by more than 99.9% of all users.

your way of playing doom is not my way of playing doom. there is no proper way of playing doom, only proper ways of playing maps (IF the mapper wanted to create a map with a psecific light mode in mind for gameplay or immerison purpose.)
the confusion comes from trying to use THE light mode closer to vanilla out of many similar ones, because there is some purist who wants the OG experience.
the issue is not dark light mode, which exist mostly to get rid of the glow (which also give nicer darkness and better natural lighting IMO.)

getting rid of that glow is essential for many mods and maps that aim to have either a "more modern" lighting or simply better "darkness" immersion.
i am not asking to put back dozen of light mode that may add to the confusion, i am asking for the dark light mode specifically, for the reasons mentionned above.

i would be fine with a software light mode without glow too (even if i prefer the dark light mode's smoother darkness.)
but that's extra work when we already have something that fit the bill.
of course i can still use dark light mode but having it inside the menu is a QOL i want back.

[Dark Pulse]

4 hours ago, akinata said:

what are you saying exactly? they got rid of dark light mode so that people don't cheat in competions?
sorry i do not follow...

Other way around. Some light modes are brighter than others, and if you are using it but the other guy is not, that's an advantage, so for netplay, the ability to change that needs to be locked.

[LuciferSam86]

15 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

Other way around. Some light modes are brighter than others, and if you are using it but the other guy is not, that's an advantage, so for netplay, the ability to change that needs to be locked.

I mean GZDoom is not even used in competitions, so for me, it doesn't even make sense, plus gl_lightmode is not even under the check of +sv_cheats = 1. Maybe r_visibility is ...

Edited June 18 by LuciferSam86

[Dark Pulse]

13 minutes ago, LuciferSam86 said:

I mean GZDoom is not even used in competitions, so for me, it doesn't even make sense, plus gl_lightmode is not even under the check of +sv_cheats = 1. Maybe r_visibility is ...

Competitive play is not the end-all be-all decider of options like that.

[akinata]

2 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

Other way around. Some light modes are brighter than others, and if you are using it but the other guy is not, that's an advantage, so for netplay, the ability to change that needs to be locked.

it doesn't concern dark light mode then

[Blzut3]

6 hours ago, akinata said:

what are you saying exactly? they got rid of dark light mode so that people don't cheat in competions?
sorry i do not follow...

What Dark Pulse said, but to expand a bit: sv_forcegldefaults, as the name suggests, locks several settings (both in menu and non-menu).  One of the settings that is locked by this is the light mode and given, as you already know, the default at the time is "dark" that's what it forces (unless the mapinfo specifies otherwise).  So I'm saying I'm not sure why you think the Zandronum developers would be champions for user light mode choice when they already give server operators the option to disable that choice.

 

In fact, given that this was done before the software emulation shader was added, adopting GZDoom's new restricted light mode setting would probably allow people to use the software emulation even in competitive games.  After all the software renderer is allowed so there's no real reason to block that mode, so it would just be gl_maplightmode that needs to be blocked.

 

1 minute ago, akinata said:

it doesn't concern dark light mode then

I guess you never noticed since the current behavior happens to be what you prefer.  But I assure you the behavior is "force defaults" and not a meticulously reasoned out choice for all the settings involved.

 

1 hour ago, LuciferSam86 said:

I mean GZDoom is not even used in competitions, so for me, it doesn't even make sense, plus gl_lightmode is not even under the check of +sv_cheats = 1. Maybe r_visibility is ... 

That particular chain of discussion was about Zandronum.

[Professor Hastig]

16 hours ago, akinata said:

getting rid of that glow is essential for many mods and maps that aim to have either a "more modern" lighting or simply better "darkness" immersion.
i am not asking to put back dozen of light mode that may add to the confusion, i am asking for the dark light mode specifically, for the reasons mentionned above.

 

If this is so essential for those maps they should set their light mode through MAPINFO - which they should have done in the first place.

So essentially this just confirms the need for the change, what we had before was a mapper option that was needlessly exposed to the end user.

 

It is a lot better to force the mappers to think about it!

 

 

Edited June 19 by Professor Hastig

[Shepardus]

1 hour ago, Professor Hastig said:

 

If this is so essential for those maps they should set their light mode through MAPINFO - which they should have done in the first place.

So essentially this just confirms the need for the change, what we had before was a mapper option that was needlessly exposed to the end user.

 

It is a lot better to force the mappers to think about it!

 

 

What about gameplay mods, e.g. DarkDoomZ and LiTDoom?

[Professor Hastig]

They should work within the rules of the engine and not outside of it. And if the light mode is important to them they should expose the needed CVARs themselves.

 

Let me repeat myself:

 

On 6/18/2024 at 9:36 AM, Professor Hastig said:

Does this really warrant a menu option? There's already far too many menu options and every time a discussion starts to streamline and condense the menu there are endless discussions like this where a small group of people cannot accept that what's in their opinion the most important menu option in the world (TM) is in reality a fringe setting that's never being touched by more than 99.9% of all users.

 

[akinata]

On 6/19/2024 at 12:27 PM, Professor Hastig said:

They should work within the rules of the engine and not outside of it. And if the light mode is important to them they should expose the needed CVARs themselves.

while its good that mappers get pushed to use a set light mode for a better gameplay experience, in no way should a player be forced to use a hidden option to make a gameplay mod work best because some devs thought it was good to get rid of a QOL feature.
some mappers alos like to let their player choose what's best for them. we are not babies. we can tailor our experience too.

 

 

On 6/18/2024 at 9:36 AM, Professor Hastig said:

Does this really warrant a menu option? There's already far too many menu options and every time a discussion starts to streamline and condense the menu there are endless discussions like this where a small group of people cannot accept that what's in their opinion the most important menu option in the world (TM) is in reality a fringe setting that's never being touched by more than 99.9% of all users.

there is a difference between having a condensed menu with limited options (but you still have access to everything if you wish for) and completely hidding some options out of the ingame menu that were there for a very long time. especially when it is essential for alot of mods already.

99.9% of what? you meant 0.1% right?
that's some random numbers. all you need is an off feeling that semething doesn't look right. and they'll look for some settings. IMO changing light mode is a game changing visual option. (in CountryCide you'll have a totally different ambience depending on the light mode used.)

as for player playing with dark light mode...:
all QCDE players use dark light mode.
blade of agony and asches 2063 (some of the most popular TCs) plays around dark light mode.
some known gameplay mods such as lost in darkness and litdoom also have its playerbase.
even brutaldoom, the most popular doom mod, have an integrated flashlight. as such works great with dark light mode especially when playing on modern-ish maps such as its Eday campaign.

you can say whatever you want, gzdoom hidding dark light mode feels very arbitrary.

[Darkcrafter07]

I either agree it was a bad decision to remove these options from GZDoom, especially you know it if it heats up shit on doomworld.

[Shepardus]

On 6/19/2024 at 3:27 AM, Professor Hastig said:

They should work within the rules of the engine and not outside of it. And if the light mode is important to them they should expose the needed CVARs themselves.

Is there a way for a gameplay mod to set gl_maplightmode programmatically? I tried playing around with it a bit, but it seems to me it can only be set from menus, and since the CVAR isn't archived that would mean asking people to go into the menu to set it every session (or autoexec it/set up a keybind), hardly a seamless experience compared to the control mappers have.

[Kinsie]

2 hours ago, Shepardus said:

Is there a way for a gameplay mod to set gl_maplightmode programmatically?

No. Player settings are sacrosanct and video settings double-plus-sacred. The only thing that's allowed to change them is sitting between the chair and the screen.

[Professor Hastig]

And in the end, if a mod requires to change a global setting (which is bad per se) it now needs to alter its docs from "To play this mod as intended, go to the xyz-menu and set the abc-option to 123" to "To play this mod as intended, go to the console and change the abc CVAR to 123".

 

Both should be a red flag that something was done wrong.

 

 

[LuciferSam86]

1 hour ago, Professor Hastig said:

And in the end, if a mod requires to change a global setting (which is bad per se) it now needs to alter its docs from "To play this mod as intended, go to the xyz-menu and set the abc-option to 123" to "To play this mod as intended, go to the console and change the abc CVAR to 123".

 

Both should be a red flag that something was done wrong.

 

 

Actually a modder has the full access to the modes via MAPINFO , and the MAPINFO setting overrides the cvar setting. 

[Kinsie]

1 hour ago, LuciferSam86 said:

Actually a modder has the full access to the modes via MAPINFO , and the MAPINFO setting overrides the cvar setting. 

On a per-map basis. You can't apply it to pre-defined maps like what a gameplay mod would want to do, which is the entire context for this fragment of the thread.

[akinata]

3 hours ago, Professor Hastig said:

And in the end, if a mod requires to change a global setting (which is bad per se) it now needs to alter its docs from "To play this mod as intended, go to the xyz-menu and set the abc-option to 123" to "To play this mod as intended, go to the console and change the abc CVAR to 123".

 

Both should be a red flag that something was done wrong.

 

 

reality:
change software light mode to dark light mode. done.
that was difficult.

change mod.
go back to software light mode. done.

now i have to copy paste "gl_maplightmode 3" from a txt file everytime (because i don't remember what to write exactly all the time.)
whenever i use a mod/map that runs better with dark.
(thankfully i can create a shortcut.)

if i want to experiment within the mod i play, i now have to check all numbers because i don't know what the others are beside 3 for dark.

and in the case of some specific TC that requires you to play with tons of diferent settings, they usually give you a modified engine with a .bat
very user friendly.

[Shepardus]

7 hours ago, Professor Hastig said:

And in the end, if a mod requires to change a global setting (which is bad per se) it now needs to alter its docs from "To play this mod as intended, go to the xyz-menu and set the abc-option to 123" to "To play this mod as intended, go to the console and change the abc CVAR to 123".

 

Both should be a red flag that something was done wrong.

 

 

I wouldn't mind telling someone to go to the menu to change a setting if I didn't have to tell them to change it every time they launch the game.

[LuciferSam86]

I mean, a gui like ZDL could help with profiles, but it's workaround and not a solution 

 

Hmmm, I think making a mod that changes the cvar should be kind trivial? Is the cvar applied at startup or at immediately? Maybe putting that on a gameplay mod? The only thing is the cvar looses against a modder choice on the MAPINFO per level and here we can be both right ( I think a modder choice should win against the user choice ) but we can discuss for hours and don't find a common point.  

Anyway still a workaround and not a solution 

Edited June 21 by LuciferSam86

[Lila Feuer]

I suppose this wasn't thought out very well huh, that's what happens when you cater to a minority.

So since we or at least I know that the "casual users" was the smokescreen for the change, who are the mappers I should be holding accountable for forcing the devs to make this change in order for me to avoid playing their works? It's really petty yes, but I'm petty that you're petty!

Yes, I can use a third party mod to put things back in, at least I'm fortunate enough to be able to do that, GZDoom is not a paid product but its user base dwarfs any other source port for the game by far. There's programs or apps that remove basic functionalities and don't even have a third party solution because they block them or else there's no way to access the guts of the service to even implement changes, or they may paywall arbitrary functionality, because that's the kinda world we live in now. We can still work around this if nothing's done to make a compromise.

The problem still stands however that this one little change is having big unforeseen consequences and it's not being taken seriously at all. Speaking on behalf of other people and making up bizarre percentages and being out of touch with modern instant messaging services like Discord to make it sound like me and others like me don't exist is incredibly insulting and you sound extremely haughty for doing so. I cannot take you seriously whatsoever and refuse to engage you at all. You know who you are, you dismissed my points eight months ago and continue to parade around in here despite the fact I don't think you're even a programmer, so what are you getting out of this other than to be a pompous contrarian?

Anyway I told one mapper/modder about the changes that've been implemented (00_Zombie_00) so that they know to update their package to force dark mode, even though it was, y'know, player side before and they wrote incredibly simple instructions to inform users what light mode worked best with their project, only now that mode is removed and now it messes things up for them. Who knows how many other instances there are of this now that need to be addressed, all because some mappers got incredibly offended that their works were not being represented correctly and feel the need to enforce a huge change on the player base. You took one problem and split it into two, congratulations!