Hexen: Veil of Darkness (UDMF Mapset, GZDoom)

[NeoWorm]

I got about halfway through, finished, swamps, mines, most of castle and dipped into the ice caves. But hell, those respawns in the main HUB map are getting overwhelming. I am out of mana most of the time and getting around the map is getting really annoying. Some of the monsters seems like designed to counter both Cleric weapons.

[Captain Toenail]

On 10/19/2023 at 5:26 AM, Muleke_Trairao said:

Just finished it. Around 6-7 hours of gameplay time, counting deaths and savegame loads.

Wow that was quite a long time! Were there any areas that were particularly frustrating or difficult?

 

On 10/18/2023 at 8:56 PM, NeoWorm said:

This is what I hoped people would use my resources for.

When I saw the ladders, chests, NPCs and other awesome stuff in that resource pack, I knew I had to make something with it. There is the potential to make an entire TES-like Hexen world with the stuff in there, if someone wanted to.

 

On 10/18/2023 at 6:12 PM, Desfar said:

Really highlights the difference in mapcrafting ability between new hands and the experienced.
 

Recent speedmapping, especially with the PUSS team, really helped improve my mapping skills a lot. Also new mapping tools like the curve tool and 3D viewer are such a multiplier. I recommend every new mapper try speedmapping.

 

2 hours ago, NeoWorm said:

I got about halfway through, finished, swamps, mines, most of castle and dipped into the ice caves. But hell, those respawns in the main HUB map are getting overwhelming. I am out of mana most of the time and getting around the map is getting really annoying. Some of the monsters seems like designed to counter both Cleric weapons.

 

I admit I have a Fighter-bias, it is my favourite player class in Hexen. I can certainly add more mana for the Cleric in the next update if that is the case. I can also reduce the respawn-rate if it's really that annoying. As it currently works, respawners are activated when a player gets near them. They then spawn a random enemy, mainly ettins, every 6-8 minutes. In the meantime, please treat yourself to a couple of Kraters of Might.

 

 

I also forgot to mention, on medium and below difficulty, there are clues for some of the puzzles. These are removed on hard mode.

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Captain Toenail

[Not Jabba]

26 minutes ago, Captain Toenail said:

I admit I have a Fighter-bias, it is my favourite player class in Hexen. I can certainly add more mana for the Cleric in the next update if that is the case. I can also reduce the respawn-rate if it's really that annoying. As it currently works, respawners are activated when a player gets near them. They then spawn a random enemy, mainly ettins, every 6-8 minutes. In the meantime, please treat yourself to a couple of Kraters of Might.

 

I also forgot to mention, on medium and below difficulty, there are clues for some of the puzzles. These are removed on hard mode.

For what it's worth, I was also talking to someone else who tried to play this as the Cleric and got frustrated by how long they had to use the Mace -- a common but fair criticism for any Hexen project, because it's such a terrible starter weapon. Might be worth rethinking the balance for the Cleric a bit. (I'll probably be playing Mage myself, though).

 

If you're considering an alternative way of handling the respawns, I like how Faithless Trilogy does it, where it just happens once every time you re-enter a map. But it probably depends on how the hub map is being used.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Not Jabba

[NeoWorm]

4 hours ago, Captain Toenail said:

I admit I have a Fighter-bias, it is my favourite player class in Hexen. I can certainly add more mana for the Cleric in the next update if that is the case. I can also reduce the respawn-rate if it's really that annoying. As it currently works, respawners are activated when a player gets near them. They then spawn a random enemy, mainly ettins, every 6-8 minutes. In the meantime, please treat yourself to a couple of Kraters of Might.

 

I currently have the woods map flooded by all kinds of monsters. Every time I finish one of the side location, it gets populated by that location's type of monsters. I cleaned the map after the first location, but hopelessly run out of ammo after the second so they started stacking. I don't know if they are respawning, but the sheer amount of them is enough. And since all the pathways are clogged with ettins, centaurs and those poison flowers it is really not much of joy to play like that.

 

I will try another playthrough with either Fighter or Mage. I think Mage will be a lot easier because you can snipe everything with the wand.

Edited October 21, 2023 by NeoWorm

[Matthias]

Somehow it doesn't work for me. I hit new game, choose character, then difficulty and then it freezes and crashes.

edit: oops I had a wrong gzdoom version, nevermind.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Matthias

[Muleke_Trairao]

17 hours ago, Captain Toenail said:

On 10/19/2023 at 1:26 AM, Muleke_Trairao said:

Just finished it. Around 6-7 hours of gameplay time, counting deaths and savegame loads.

Wow that was quite a long time! Were there any areas that were particularly frustrating or difficult?

I just got lost in general (yes, even with the automap). There were many things to keep track of and remember (like the keys and the location of their respective doors), so I'd wander around a lot. Can't remember the exact areas right now. I still had a lot of fun regardless!

What would be the average play time for VoD, in your opinion?

 

I agree with NeoWorm that the respawns were overwhelming. The Hub map would get swarmed by enemies if you didn't routinely kill them. Since you have to backtrack a lot, reducing their respawn rate might help alleviate the frustration.

[Captain Toenail]

Ok, here is an update. The changes:

 

Playing as the Cleric should hopefully be a lot smoother now

 

• Spoiler

   

  • added GAMEINFO to load dynamic lights and brightmaps
  • removed some unused content
  • updated monitor texture
  • fixed d'sparil statue gldefs
  • changed monster respawner rate from 5-8 minutes to 10-15 minutes
  • changed plant respawn rate from 3-6 minutes to 10-15 minutes
  • removed electric damage resistance from stone giant
  • removed poison damage resistance from bog beast
  • removed electric and fire damage resistance from magmaguy
  • moved starter weapons to more visible position in swamp
  • added an additional kraters throughout for Cleric
  • Cleric can now get Serpent Staff earlier in swamp

   

   

Edited November 13, 2023 by Captain Toenail
Removed old download link

[Jerem]

wonderful screenshots! it's fantastic that you're updating it too!
talented and dedicated! 

[LuciferSam86]

Pretty good wad. 

I'm playing with walpurgis 0.98 and when I start a new game I have a warning "Item unknown artipork" .

My load order is: Veil, Walpurgis, Walpurgis patch. Is the correct order?

I'm playing with gzdoom 4.11.1

Edited October 24, 2023 by LuciferSam86

[Captain Toenail]

Hi @LuciferSam86

 

Please load the patch after VoD, but before Walpurgis. Please be aware that with all third party mods compatibility isn't perfect - Walpurgis seems to strip the dormant flag from monsters (mainly afrits) and remove the secret flag from some items. It also seems to break the minecart script in the mine level somewhat, however this does not halt progress. 

 

@Muleke_Trairao

It was taking me 3.5 hours when playtesting but of course that's with foreknowledge of everything. Again thank you for playing! A little tip for everyone you can configure the automap to show locked doors and key markers that may help with navigation.

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Captain Toenail

[Matthias]

Ok, I just beat it.

 

I'll skip the positive and good things about your megawad - not because I am a negative person (which I am actually) but the good things were already told by many here and you probably know by yourself that you created some Cacowards winner thingy.

 

First, I totally agree with others that the endless spawn is soo annoying. I understand that even vanilla Hexen had some sort of script to spawn some ettins so the maps won't feel so empty once you kill everyone.

 

But still... you killed a blue plant and there was another almost instantly.

 

Later on I was so bored by the endless influx of monsters that I just bunny-hopped from place to place, ignoring everything around.

 

They keep spawning ever during boss fights.

 

Hexen was always more about exploring rather than action, but spawning monsters was very distracting from solving-puzzles and exploration.

 

Second - this is probably subjective, but was too insanly difficult. Especially with Warrior who has only melee weapons most of the time. The Wywern boss was almost impossible becuse Axe was out of question and Hammer wa too slow - there was not even any way to hit him and it took me an hour to kill it. Later on it was so difficult that it felt ridiculous - I died almost every second. There is almost no health and I beat some bosses with 1hp :D

 

I don't know - maybe I just suck...

 

Third - I was totally lost all the time. I mean it's Hexen - what do I expect? Of couse I'll be lost and frustrated by back-tracking, switch-hunting and so on...

 

But still - for a modern UDMF megawad I would expect to be less 90s-like and more user-friendly. I literally had to export maps from the .pk3 file and search in UDB where is Ruby Planet and where is the Golden Tomb key, because I was soo lost.

 

So this is my feedback :) These are my feelings.

 

Thanks for the megawad and good luck!

 

Also, this one made my day

[Captain Toenail]

@Matthias Thanks for the feedback  this is very useful!

 

Regarding the spawn rate, did you play with the original release or the more recent 1.1? I may have to reduce the rate further, and add a maximum number of respawns. It's no use to anyone if the map keeps clogging up with baddies as has been reported.

 

I'm also considering moving the Gold Key to the castle/dungeon after reading this feedback. I feel that would probably save a lot of confusion for people.

 

[Matthias]

5 minutes ago, Captain Toenail said:

@Matthias Thanks for the feedback  this is very useful!

 

Regarding the spawn rate, did you play with the original release or the more recent 1.1? I may have to reduce the rate further, and add a maximum number of respawns. It's no use to anyone if the map keeps clogging up with baddies as has been reported.

 

I'm also considering moving the Gold Key to the castle/dungeon after reading this feedback. I feel that would probably save a lot of confusion for people.

 

 

I played the first version. I noticed the update but I was already in a half, so I didn't want to start over.

 

I couldn't find The Gold Tomb key for two reasons. First - I though the map (dungeon.wad) is completed and there is nothing else to do. And second - I confused the door in the tower - I though it's still the same door, but there are two different exits.

Personally what I do in my maps is printing "(levelname) completed" so the player knows that he has everything and there is no need to return to the map. :)

Edited October 24, 2023 by Matthias

[Vile]

I finished the mod today.  It's easily the best thing I've played for Hexen and I was repeatedly delighted at the new enemies/items, boss encounters and puzzle setups. I think everything was tied together as well as one could imagine and the pacing felt spot-on.  I can understand the spawns in the hub map being a bit much, though I was largely dodging around everything going from place to place finishing up loose ends.

 

Spoiler

Twitch vods - part 1 and part 2

 

I think the only actual issue I saw was a misspelling of "elevated" on the sign to the elevated monument.  As for the puzzles, there was one that I never figured out and wasn't sure what to do with.  You'll see it towards the end of part 2 since I revisited it after completed the mod but still couldn't figure it out.  Oh well, I was mostly just curious but otherwise, I think the puzzles were well designed and not reflective of the much-maligned switch hunts of the original Hexen.

 

[ThatKidBobo]

This looks SO GOOD! You have really inspired me right now! Thank you so much.

[Mathuzzz]

Well, this is probably going to be the ultimate Hexen mod we all waited for, however, it needs some tuning to be truly enjoyable. There is probably not any other high quality megawad for Hexen (compared to the ones made for Heretic and Doom) that doesn't change the original game formula. Judged by the number of maps I thought it wouldn't be that much of a journey, but the size is easily comparable to the original game. 

 

I usually try to avoid the mods that add too much custom stuff as it almost always ruins the original atmosphere. This one is the exception because it kept the great Hexen atmosphere even with so much new staff added. There are so many cool things throughout this WAD that left me totally jaw dropped. The scope of the maps and the architecture is magnificent + I would never expect at this point to be thrilled by the atmosphere of such an old game, but I was!

 

About the new bestiary, it mostly nicely added to the repertoire, though I wasn't really enjoying some of them, like those swamp plants for example. It's not really a problem that they are included, but the respawning is just too much. And this is probably my biggest issue with the mod. As the mod is definitely worth more than just one playthrough, I did my first on the lowest skill, mostly to enjoy the design and it was a wise decision. Even on that skill, the respawning was unbearable, especially at the central map. I understand the respawning is necessary for HUB based concept, but the monsters managed to respawn before I managed to clean the place. It became worse when the plants were joined by the robots. I mean they were cool, but the whole metal level and it's inhabitants would be more fitting as something separate or a secret map because of it's rather funny, over-the-top concept. Anyway, the central map came to the point it wasn't fun anymore (part of it is because I played the mage, but more of that later) and it ruined it's atmosphere. So my suggestion is toning down the respawning in the central map significantly, especially on the lower skills and maybe leave some monster types only to their own places.

 

This leads me to another issue. Mage weapons had already limited usage in Hexen, the much more complicated map design, densely filled with stuff made it much worse. Arc of Death, which was somewhat usable in the vanilla game was totally useless here, which made Frost Shards not the least usable weapon in the game. I expect the same would apply to Cleric's Firestorm. I made a wise choice choosing the lowest skill as I basically could not die, higher skills would be really frustrating, fighting my way through the constantly respawning hordes with just the wand. The problem here is not with the design of the mod, but actually with the original design of the weapons. They really need some kind of adjustment, at least making Arc of Death avoiding stuff that cannot be broken or something.

 

Despite the mentioned flaws I enjoyed it a lot! Looking forward to another playthrough.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Mathuzzz

[eharper256]

I've somehow completely missed this, lol. Looks pretty awesome. I'll make you a video later.

I checked the patch for Walp you've put out and realised I somehow missed the fact that I overlapped sprites when making Geomancy with that decorative rock (RCK2A). Goes to show I've not done a Hexen run in a while, but it is pretty amazing no-one's pointed it out yet lol. I'll include a fix for that in 0.99, so thanks for finding it.

Also lol about your replaced Chaos Serpents using Korax's new fireballs without the patch. Unfortunately I had to do it that way due to Korax and his weird scripts. His weirdness means you can't just fling differently named projectiles into his line-up and still have compatibility with other wads that use him.

Not sure why Afrit's would lose +Dormant, though. The monster spawner code should respect and transfer all flags forwards, and even correctly assign the tid, and I have no idea why your minecarts would be affected unless it's down to players being slightly shorter than they are in base Hexen (for Doom Compatibility).

Edited October 29, 2023 by eharper256

[eharper256]

I'll pop the video on later, Youtube appears to be having hissy fits with Firefox recently for me.

But I did a playthrough just past the end of the mines (yes indeed that minecart is borked lol~ I assume it's got an ACS script that is picking up on the old player class or something?). However, I'll mirror the thoughts of others here that, wow, respawning enemies and very low mana drops overall isn't a grand experience (well, the forest is okay, but everywhere else it seems like except the occasional cluster, there's very little, whereas base Hexen will provide you at least a bit in each encounter).

I was playing Magister, so it wasn't quite as bad, as Force Blasts are at least decent. I expect it to be ultra-tough for the melee heavy classes, though, as there's lots of things (slimes, pods, spiders, etc.) that are actively anti-melee with small hitboxes and jumps. It's fine to occasionally mana-starve, but you have your higher tier weapons for a reason.

Note that your Stone Golem/Giant's rock throw still uses the old rock as decoration rather than using your fixed one, though actually I think that looks pretty cool, exploding with green sparks (lol). Furthermore, if you were super-bothered about compatibility, I did notice you get the old discs of repulsion, timebomb flechette etc. added to inventory at the start, rather than the Walpurgis ones. And, optionally, you can add item descriptions to the "tag" field on any item and they will appear automatically in Walp when scrolling the inventory. For example: Tag "Gain 50% Damage Reduction & a special power!".

The mines have a really low detection radius and magma mine seems to do very little damage, so I actually just wanted to chuck them away to get them out of inventory than use them, lol. This may be down to enemies having higher HP in general in Walp, though.

Finally, I hit a stopping point as I couldn't seem to use my two flame masks on the wall near an icy block after returning from the mines, in the forest. I assume it's meant to be used there, anyways.

Still, I love the effort you've put into this. Good work!

[hereticfan]

Hello, Congrats for the release!! Hexen and heretic are my preferite games and it's lovely to see more content. 

[Captain Toenail]

@Vile Watching your playthrough was hilarious, I really enjoyed it. You also highlighted a bunch of stuff I need to tweak, such as the stone circle puzzle. Without the clue on Hard setting, there is no context whatsoever.

 

@Mathuzzz I'm not planning on modifying the Hexen weapons as that's somewhat outside the scope of the project, however, I hear you about the Mage lightning. It sometimes gets snagged on some of the new props because they are set to be shootable. I have fixed this in the next patch.

 

@eharper256 This is useful info for updating the compat patch. Regarding the icy block, there is a new type of mask, the frost mask.

 

 

 

I have a new update in progress that should fix the majority of issues reported, should be ready later today or tomorrow hopefully.

 

[eharper256]

Youtube finally stopped having a hernia so here's the video I mentioned from earlier:

The HD processing is still taking forever and a day, though. Sorry if it's initially low res.

[hereticfan]

I will wait the update then. By the way, are you supposed to use jumping in this .wad?

[Gez]

36 minutes ago, hereticfan said:

I will wait the update then. By the way, are you supposed to use jumping in this .wad?

Jumping is a vanilla Hexen feature, it'd be weird to remove it in a mod like this.

[Captain Toenail]

On 10/29/2023 at 8:01 PM, eharper256 said:

Youtube finally stopped having a hernia so here's the video I mentioned from earlier:

 

Neat I'll check this out later. The Walpurgis patch will need updated but I may need your help for that.

 

On 10/29/2023 at 8:19 PM, hereticfan said:

I will wait the update then. By the way, are you supposed to use jumping in this .wad?

 

Yes jumping and mouselook is required.

 

 

1.2 update

 

Changes:

• Spoiler

   

  • Respawning plants and pods now have a small chance of being removed permanently upon death
  • Less enemies now spawn in forest map upon completing colour orb puzzle, completing machine map, and retrieving first emerald planet
  • Trigger delay added to gear puzzle item buttons in machine map to prevent overlapping monster spawns
  • Monster respawners removed on very easy and easy throughout entire hub
  • Removed shootable flag from a number of 3D props - these will no longer snag arc of death shots
  • Additional Kraters of Might for the Mage class (The Ambit incants also restore mana for the Mage)
  • Added message to Ambrosia Bloom side quest
  • Added temporary bars to metal funnel button alcove in the bastion
  • Moved village map marker to less confusing location
  • Fixed Elevated sign typo
  • Added darker automap background (provides better contrast against default Raven automap settings - (I recommend also using textured automap and thicker map lines for maximum readability)
  • Added message to bookcase puzzle secret
  • Fixed stuck swamp monster in the pyramid
  • Added monster blocking lines around the central gear shaft inside the windmill
  • Reduced castle Bishop respawn rate
  • Added additional clue in dungeon map hinting at the location of the gold key
  • Bastion location name now revealed earlier
  • Wyvern boss now makes lower strafing runs (easier for fighter to hit with melee attack)

   

   

Unless there are any serious issues encountered in the next week or so, I can hopefully consider this the final release. Fingers-crossed! Enjoy :-)

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Captain Toenail
Removed old download link

[eharper256]

22 minutes ago, Captain Toenail said:

 

Neat I'll check this out later. The Walpurgis patch will need updated but I may need your help for that.

Changes:

•   Reveal hidden contents

   

  • Respawning plants and pods now have a small chance of being removed permanently upon death
  • Less enemies now spawn in forest map upon completing colour orb puzzle, completing machine map, and retrieving first emerald planet
  • Trigger delay added to gear puzzle item buttons in machine map to prevent overlapping monster spawns
  • Monster respawners removed on very easy and easy throughout entire hub
  • Removed shootable flag from a number of 3D props - these will no longer snag arc of death shots
  • Additional Kraters of Might for the Mage class (The Ambit incants also restore mana for the Mage)
  • Added message to Ambrosia Bloom side quest
  • Added temporary bars to metal funnel button alcove in the bastion
  • Moved village map marker to less confusing location
  • Fixed Elevated sign typo
  • Added darker automap background (provides better contrast against default Raven automap settings - (I recommend also using textured automap and thicker map lines for maximum readability)
  • Added message to bookcase puzzle secret
  • Fixed stuck swamp monster in the pyramid
  • Added monster blocking lines around the central gear shaft inside the windmill
  • Reduced castle Bishop respawn rate
  • Added additional clue in dungeon map hinting at the location of the gold key
  • Bastion location name now revealed earlier
  • Wyvern boss now makes lower strafing runs (easier for fighter to hit with melee attack)

   

No problem. Feel free to ask anything you need to know for Walp.

Changes sound good, though you should maybe consider giving Cleric those Kraters too; being stuck to the Mace is awful in Vanilla.

He can also use his Storm Spear Mana-less in Walp so it would be less of an issue, but obviously not everyone's gonna have that.

Similarly, fighting the Wyvern as Vanilla Fighter without Hammer is generally a dreadful exercise in frustration.

Personally, I'd consider making small blue/green mana a rare monster drop (say 10/255 chance) from your custom monsters. Or if you really don't like dropping 15-mana chunks, feel free to consider using Walp's 5-Mana wisps for the purpose.

Edited October 29, 2023 by eharper256

[Captain Toenail]

11 hours ago, eharper256 said:

though you should maybe consider giving Cleric those Kraters too; being stuck to the Mace is awful in Vanilla.

He does have those kraters. Judging from @Vile's playthrough there was plenty of mana and items for the Cleric.

 

11 hours ago, eharper256 said:

Similarly, fighting the Wyvern as Vanilla Fighter without Hammer is generally a dreadful exercise in frustration.

Fortunately this is not a situation that occurs in this project.

[eharper256]

7 hours ago, Captain Toenail said:

He does have those kraters. Judging from @Vile's playthrough there was plenty of mana and items for the Cleric.

 

Fortunately this is not a situation that occurs in this project.

Cool, good to know.

[Captain Toenail]

@eharper256 I watched your video - thank you for taking the time to record that, that is very useful. Walpurgis is an amazing mod and I definitely want the players to have the best experience when playing it with this. However, I am not totally familiar with how it works, so all your suggestiions so far are very helpful. It did seem quite tight on mana there in the video. Note you can smash the light coloured crates these contain items and mana also.

 

On 10/29/2023 at 11:48 PM, eharper256 said:

Personally, I'd consider making small blue/green mana a rare monster drop (say 10/255 chance) from your custom monsters. Or if you really don't like dropping 15-mana chunks, feel free to consider using Walp's 5-Mana wisps for the purpose. 

 

This does seem like a very good idea to consider.

 

If anyone is still experiencing issues with low mana in the latest release, please let me know. I am seeing examples where players can complete the hub with plenty of spare kraters in their inventory, and other reports where players complain of not having enough mana at all. It could be a result of how open-ended the map hub is, and the total time spent exploring the hub. Too much mana is better than not enough imo, so it may be worth spawning in some extra after a certain time-period elapses.

[eharper256]

3 hours ago, Captain Toenail said:

@eharper256 I watched your video - thank you for taking the time to record that, that is very useful. Walpurgis is an amazing mod and I definitely want the players to have the best experience when playing it with this. However, I am not totally familiar with how it works, so all your suggestiions so far are very helpful. It did seem quite tight on mana there in the video. Note you can smash the light coloured crates these contain items and mana also.

This does seem like a very good idea to consider.

 

If anyone is still experiencing issues with low mana in the latest release, please let me know. I am seeing examples where players can complete the hub with plenty of spare kraters in their inventory, and other reports where players complain of not having enough mana at all. It could be a result of how open-ended the map hub is, and the total time spent exploring the hub. Too much mana is better than not enough imo, so it may be worth spawning in some extra after a certain time-period elapses.

I had no idea about the crates; Doom players will be trained to believe that crates are immortal; unlike in, say, some RPG's.

 

Perhaps drop a couple directly in the way of the start at the docks? You can bet most players will consider bashing them first before jumping into the drink, so this is emergently and organically teaching people about it (and perhaps also dropping the items starting package in this? I was actually having a 'what?' moment when I first opened my inventory to find all the stuff in it lol).

And yes, I would consider a rare/uncommon small mana drop from the monsters. Some players explore everything and don't move on until they find a way to clear secrets, but many will bull forwards sticking the path (and indeed, it is these people who easily get confused and hate Seven Portals in the original Hexen). Similarly, some people have an "exterminate all" mentality even when there is nothing hard-blocking your progress (this is where I always fall down lol); which is especially terrible for mana if you combine it with a pack-rat tendancy (also me) and horde your inventory. :D

Walp in general is a mod that makes Hexen more powerful across the board. You'll spend around 30% more than you would in Base Hexen, you'll do on average 40-50% more damage, but monsters also have as much as 80-100% more HP, and are faster, as well as there being elite variants shuffled into the regular lineup (incidently, since Bog Beast appeared on R667, I was considering adding it as a Stalker elite spawn option for the upcoming 0.99 patch before I even saw it in this wad, but also giving it the Acid Spray from the Druid's Hebiko Sceptre Upgrade as a bonus attack). :D

[NeoWorm]

Destructible crates are a must, ever since Carnage Galore III I try to destroy all the creates in all HeXen maps just to be sure.