Craneo's Summoner and the Hell Warrior

[Rudolph]

I have recently found out that Realm667 recently uploaded a reimagining of Doom 2016's Summoner for Classic Doom.

 

Having experimented with it for a bit, I am just not sure what to think about it.

 

One one hand, it fires fast, but dodgeable projectiles that do not feel as cheap as the Arch-Vile's attack. On the other hand, the lack of the latter and the inability to resurrect monsters mean that the Summoner would probably not work as a suitable replacement for the Arch-Vile in the maps that were designed specifically for it, i.e. several Plutonia maps and every map with secrets that can only be accessed by getting thrown into the air.

 

What about you? Do you think it is a good recreation of its Doom 2016 counterpart? And more importantly do you think this is what the Arch-Vile should have been in the first place?

Edited October 25, 2023 by Rudolph

[Gez]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

And more importantly do you think this is what the Arch-Vile should have been in the first place?

Obviously no.

 

A better question is, "does it fill an interesting niche that is missing from the standard bestiary?"

[Rudolph]

Just now, Gez said:

Obviously no.

Why not?

[RonnieJamesDiner]

I always thought the Summoner was a fun enemy type, mechanically. It could probably fit into the bestiary well enough as an addition (rather than a substitution), like the Diabolist in Supercharge. I'm not a huge fan of Craneo's "Summoner" on R667 to be honest though, the attack just feels kind of awkward to me (I think I'd prefer a single, bigger projectile similar to the actual D2016 Summoner, doing more damage and fired less often). But, the general concept of a weaker, roaming Icon of Sin unit always seemed interesting to me, if you could strike a good balance around the frequency/likelihood of each unit (which is the really tricky part). Craneo's spawns Imps, Pinkys, and Spectres exclusively which might feel exciting in the early game, but would probably feel boring and ineffective mid-to-late game. Maybe if it spawned Shotgun Guys and Chaingunners regularly? Who knows. 

 

I absolutely agree with Gez though, the original Archvile is leaps and bounds better (actually... it's perfect), and much of that is due to the resurrection mechanic. 

• There's zero ambiguity; as long as the player is aware of/remembers which corpses are available to the AV, they can instantly calculate how the fight might play out.
• Because the player has this information, they can actually use it to make decisions during combat; the player can lead the AV away from or towards certain areas/corpses depending on the context, giving the player more agency. Additionally, they can decide whether or not a free & roaming AV is an immediate threat or not; does it need to be killed quickly to avoid a bigger problem, or is it fine to leave it because the threat of resurrection isn't a priority? Even more player agency, and yet another decision that rewards map awareness.
• The AV can resurrect bigger/tougher mobs, like the Mancubus, Arachnotron, and Baron for example. This significantly adds to the severity/pressure of a loose Archvile on the battlefield, and that kind of added pressure = fun. Giving the Summoner the ability to spawn heavier units (more inline with the Icon) would be a recipe for disaster because it's 100% purely RNG, and as a mapper you'd be forced to use the Summoner in areas large enough for fatter units to actually spawn and move. The AV can be used anywhere.
• Where the Summoner acts as a literal RNG generator, the AV acts as a force multiplier; the strength of it's resurrection mechanic is directly proportionate to the corpses available. An AV in a room full of Imp corpses will only ever become an AV + Imp fight; in a room full of Revenant corpses, it only becomes an AV + Revenant fight. The full impact of an Archvile is directly up to the mapper, in more ways than the Summoner could ever be.
• An Archvile can be a turret monster. Whether the Summoner requires line-of-sight, or to simply be awake in order to summon mobs, you could never really use it as a turret for it's projectile attack unless you specifically made a non-summoning version. Sure, that's doable, but it's just another point to the AV for being useful as all hell. 

[Gez]

3 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Why not?

Because the arch-vile is so much better. As RonnieJamesDiner pointed out, the way the resurrection ability works allows to fine-tune an arch-vile encounter to a great degree, and that makes this monster incredibly versatile. It can even be interesting when unleashed in an area in which the player is not around!

[ebrl]

In what universe is the archvile attack "cheap"?

[Rudolph]

Fair points. I reckon the Summoner would have felt a bit too redundant with the Pain Elemental. I guess I am just not a fan of the Arch-Vile's attack, as it feels so cheap in environments where there is no cover; Plutonia's MAP03: Aztec comes to mind...

Edited October 21, 2023 by Rudolph

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

On 10/21/2023 at 3:53 PM, Rudolph said:

I am just not a fan of the Arch-Vile's attack, as it feels so cheap in environments where there is no cover

That's the fault of the mapper, not the enemy. Any enemy can be cheap if it's not used properly.

[Lila Feuer]

Yep. It's funny because I find the majority of Plutonia to be medium to medium-hard, but some of the earlier maps like Well of Souls's ending and the red key trap in Aztec will still give me loads of trouble due to extremely constricting spaces or awkward setups.

[Rudolph]

18 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

Yep. It's funny because I find the majority of Plutonia to be medium to medium-hard, but some of the earlier maps like Well of Souls's ending and the red key trap in Aztec will still give me loads of trouble due to extremely constricting spaces or awkward setups.

What makes it worse is that the Arch-Vile can hit you from behind other enemies. That is why I really do not care for slaughtermaps in general.

 

This is where Classic Doom could have really used a Railgun-type weapon. Another solution would have been to make other enemies able to block the Arch-Vile's line of sight and thus interrupt the channeling sequence, although I am not sure if that could have been doable on the Doom engine.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Rudolph

[Guff dotD]

14 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

That's the fault of the mapper, not the enemy. Any enemy can be cheap if it's not used properly.

 

This. Every enemy in Doom, Hitscanners included, have a part to play, and when the map doesn't allow for that to happen, then it can feel either too cheap/too underwhelming.

[Rudolph]

25 minutes ago, Guff dotD said:

Every enemy in Doom, Hitscanners included, have a part to play

I have to disagree slightly there.

 

I believe it was Sandy Petersen himself who stated that the only reason why the Hell Knight exists is because he liked his visual design and wanted to see it more often, but since the Baron of Hell is kind of a bullet sponge, he was worried that it might have made the game too difficult... which in hindsight is quite ironic, as Doom and Doom II are quite generous in terms of ammunition and the only time when the Baron of Hell is legitimately a problem is in E4M1: Hell Beneath. While I do not have a problem with the Hell Knight myself, I would not say its presence is crucial from a gameplay perspective. It is also probably why Doom 2016 reimagined the monster as a fast and athletic melee enemy.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Rudolph

[Guff dotD]

31 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

-snip-

Fighting two Hell Knights is fundamentally more interesting to me than fighting a single Baron, IMO.

Barons and HKs on their own aren't as interesting, say, as fighting some Revenants. But in a varied group, they shine.

Again, a lot of this is dependent on the map (and the mapper), so misuse isn't a fault of the enemy itself.

[Rudolph]

1 hour ago, Guff dotD said:

Fighting two Hell Knights is fundamentally more interesting to me than fighting a single Baron, IMO.

Barons and HKs on their own aren't as interesting, say, as fighting some Revenants. But in a varied group, they shine.

No. No, they do not.

 

If I knew how, I would make a mod that replaces them with a new enemy. I see that Realm667 already has some suitable candidates.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Rudolph

[bofu]

I have my own take on the Summoner enemy in my megawad Dominus Diabolicus, which until recently, was limit-removing. It's used as a miniboss and recycles the Icon of Sin code pointers, but due to the weird behavior of the Icon of Sin and the choice being either telefragging itself if it walks into a spawn spot or getting monsters stuck inside each other, I keep it well out of the fray.

 

Ironically, it uses the Diabolist sprite, though I may change that before it releases.

[BGreener]

1 hour ago, Guff dotD said:

Fighting two Hell Knights is fundamentally more interesting to me than fighting a single Baron, IMO.

Barons and HKs on their own aren't as interesting, say, as fighting some Revenants. But in a varied group, they shine.

Again, a lot of this is dependent on the map (and the mapper), so misuse isn't a fault of the enemy itself.

“Varied enemy compositions” has been a key to what’s kept Doom’s gameplay “shiny” for many a decade imho, and hell knights are great at being in the frontline as they attempt to distract you from other baddies.

@Rudolph

Quote

What makes it worse is that the Arch-Vile can hit you from behind other enemies.

 

If it’s just a hallway with a bunch of monsters I can’t navigate around with an archvile spawning behind them then yeah, that does sound cheap and unfun.

 

But I also agree with the others that this sounds more like a “level design” issue rather than an issue with “enemy design” so I have to ask: What map was this? Because if I realize there’s an arcie at the back of a group BUT I also have a means to circle around and get to him, that sounds fun.

[Lila Feuer]

Putting the Archvile behind a line of popcorn enemies isn't bad though, it becomes a quick and violent game of whack-a-mole with the prize being to snuff the AV.

[BGreener]

6 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

Putting the Archvile behind a line of popcorn enemies isn't bad though, it becomes a quick and violent game of whack-a-mole with the prize being to snuff the AV.

You are very right. I was assuming like five mancubi, a bunch of barons, some arachnotrons and revenants - a very spicy and fulfilling drive-through order.

Edited October 23, 2023 by BGreener

[Rudolph]

1 minute ago, BGreener said:

“Varied enemy compositions” has been a key to what’s kept Doom’s gameplay “shiny” for many a decade imho, and hell knights are great at being in the frontline as they attempt to distract you from other baddies.

Does the Revenant not already fit that purpose, though?

 

2 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

Putting the Archvile behind a line of popcorn enemies isn't bad though, it becomes a quick and violent game of whack-a-mole with the prize being to snuff the AV. 

I do not have a problem with the Arch-Vile resurrecting enemies. It is the fact that it can attack you through enemies that I find kind of cheap.

[Faceman2000]

42 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

No. No, they do not.

Oh good point, I guess the rest of us were just wrong this whole time. Can’t believe I never saw that before.

[Rudolph]

19 minutes ago, BGreener said:

Because if I realize there’s an arcie at the back of a group BUT I also have a means to circle around and get to him, that sounds fun.

Yeah, but see, that is the issue: while you do that, the Arch-Vile can just channel its attack and there is no real way to not take damage from it. At least, with hitscanners, circling around enemies will cause them to take the hit for you and even turn against each other.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Rudolph

[BGreener]

8 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Does the Revenant not already fit that purpose, though?

They’re not as tanky with 300hp whereas a hell knight’s 500hp is half of a baron’s.

 

Quote

Yeah, but see, that is the issue: while you do that, the Arch-Vile can just channel its attack and there is no real way to not take damage from it. 

 

Wait, so now there’s also no cover to block the archvile’s line-of-sight before the attack goes off? Now you really need to tell me the map we’re talking about here…!

Edited October 23, 2023 by BGreener

[Rudolph]

1 minute ago, BGreener said:

They’re not as tanky with 300hp whereas a hell knight’s 500hp is half of a baron’s.

Huh. I did not realize there was that big of a health difference between the two: they usually both go down after a couple of supershotgun blasts.

[Lila Feuer]

Nope, HKs are typically three, Barons are five to sometimes six, which is obscene.

[Rudolph]

I was specifically referring to the difference between the Hell Knight and the Revenant, but fair enough.

 

I guess what gave me the impression that they are roughly of similar strength is that oftentimes, Revenants will require a third supershotgun blast.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Rudolph

[Lila Feuer]

Aye, should be two if all or most pellets connect but their hitbox and movement makes that tricky to reliably do.

[DoomGappy]

The archvile is the perfect and quintessential doom enemy, there isn't a single thing I would change about it. I am fascinated by it. It is both a healer and a killer, it is very ominous and terrifying, and the pressure I feel whenever I hear his muffled sound hasn't changed at all. It's an enemy I hate to love.

Edited October 23, 2023 by DoomGappy

[Lila Feuer]

@DoomGappy So much so I want to expand upon him with an even deadlier variant in an upcoming gameplay mod. I'm sure Rudolph would like that!

[BGreener]

1 hour ago, Lila Feuer said:

Aye, should be two if all or most pellets connect but their hitbox and movement makes that tricky to reliably do.

There’s a fun section on the Doomwiki for the supershotgun near the bottom in its ‘data’ section: It shows the shots needed to kill for each enemy. The minimum damage from the SSG is 175 (with vanilla RNG) so it should be two trigger pulls to kill a revenant, but yeup they’re quick bois and the SSG has some gnarly spread.

[Craneo]

19 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

That's the fault of the mapper, not the enemy. Any enemy can be cheap if it's not used properly.

HEY! the map I made of a damaging floor maze with no medikits or extra ammo that ends in a fight against 50 imps IS fair!

On a more serious note, that Summoner wasn't made to "replace" the ArchVile but to be it's own monsters as well as a resource (you can edit it to summon stronger enemies too if you want)