If you had been involved in the development of Doom and Doom II

[Individualised]

32 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

They were? Tell me more.

Mostly just Doom 1's more specific textures. They also re-textured a lot of levels to have much more generic texturing even though earlier in development level texturing fit the episode themes. Doom 2 actually used to resemble TNT in terms of texturing at one point, with a reliance on bright techbase textures (think Tom Hall's levels from Doom 1). They might have changed things around to give Doom 2 a seperate identity from Doom 1 (it also doesn't help that a lot of levels moved episodes).

Edited October 29, 2023 by Individualised

[Rudolph]

1 hour ago, Individualised said:

Mostly just Doom 1's more specific textures. They also re-textured a lot of levels to have much more generic texturing even though earlier in development level texturing fit the episode themes. Doom 2 actually used to resemble TNT in terms of texturing at one point, with a reliance on bright techbase textures (think Tom Hall's levels from Doom 1). They might have changed things around to give Doom 2 a seperate identity from Doom 1 (it also doesn't help that a lot of levels moved episodes).

Interesting! I did not know that.

 

Where did you get that information?

[Individualised]

16 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Interesting! I did not know that.

 

Where did you get that information?

The source data dump.

[Rudolph]

Huh. So would it be possible to "restore" those textures to Doom II?

[Individualised]

37 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Huh. So would it be possible to "restore" those textures to Doom II?

Well... yes. As I'm sure you're aware, you can import any textures into a .WAD, including Doom 1 textures into a PWAD for Doom 2 (such a .WAD containing all Doom 1 textures not present in Doom 2 already exists). Of course that doesn't change anything in the IWAD itself. If you mean retexturing the levels then I suppose someone could go through the final maps and make the texturing more consistent with the prototype ones.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Individualised

[Rudolph]

12 minutes ago, Individualised said:

Well... yes. As I'm sure you're aware, you can import any textures into a .WAD, including Doom 1 textures into a PWAD for Doom 2 (such a .WAD containing all Doom 1 textures not present in Doom 2 already exists). Of course that doesn't change anything in the IWAD itself. If you mean retexturing the levels then I suppose someone could go through the final maps and make the texturing more consistent with the prototype ones.

Yeah, that would be an interesting project.

 

You also said something about maps being moved around. Does the source data dump allude to the original map order?

[Individualised]

18 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Yeah, that would be an interesting project.

 

You also said something about maps being moved around. Does the source data dump allude to the original map order?

Yes!

The first column is the original level order. The second column is the level order from a prototype dated July 29th, which is where the maps we have from (many maps had already been redesigned to accomodate for this new ordering, but some hadn't yet, like Bloodfalls still having some city level texturing); that date was the day the level order was re-arranged, and the only reason we have the backups of the levels from that prototype. The final column is the order from the final game.

 

Towards the end of the map order seems to be a scratchpad area in both the first and second columns, so no, neither The Spirit World nor Bloodfalls were probably meant to be MAP30 as in the final level

 

There are some curious things here, such as Underhalls seemingly being in the hell episode. By July 29th it's pretty close to the final version of the map, so either it was once VERY different earlier in development, or it was placed there because they had just designed the map and they weren't sure where to put it yet.

 

The Catacombs is MAP04 in the July 29th, 1994 prototype. This is because it originally took the name of "The Focus", and a scrapped level (listed here as an alternate version of The Spirit World) instead took its place and would have been called "The Catacombs". This level actually dates all the way back to Doom 1 where it probably would have had the name "Fleshalls" in Inferno, but of course it was never used there either. It was later merged with another scrapped map (MAP27 in the prototype) to become what we know as The Spirit World.

 

Dead Simple is MAP04 in the early level order, and MAP07 in the final order. However the layout is completely different from the final version, though the intended concept seems to be similar, so the final Dead Simple was probably done from scratch. By early August it had been replaced, as the 1.6 prototype (the closest match for what would be the executable for the July 29th version) already handles the death specials.

 

[Lofwyr]

I'd constantly belittle katanas and Japanese stuff (even though I like it) around Romero.

[Rudolph]

Fascinating!

 

"The Spirit World" already feels like a final level (probably in large part due to its use of Bobby Prince's "Getting Too Tense" track), so it is funny that for a time it used to be just that, albeit as a placeholder.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Rudolph

[Maximum Matt]

2 hours ago, Individualised said:

the final Dead Simple was probably done from scratch.

But how come such a 'simple' level has author credits from two people?? 

[coderamen]

The molecules that would eventually come together to form my body would make a cameo in the tap water and the air.

[Murdoch]

22 hours ago, Jayextee said:

This is IMO why it absolutely shouldn't be changed. You're in hell, what did you expect? Plus gamer whinging sorta pings my level designer sadism a bit...

 

The whole level is just a bit silly really. If one were to remove the necessary suspension of disbelief games require, it's straight hilarious.

Icon: "OK lads, let's keep it nice and spartan, no needless clutter. Now let's put a movable column right in the middle there and put a switch up the top to activate it so it rises just about to the level of the hole in my head. Am sure nothing bad will come of this decision. Perfect, that's just the look I was wanting!"

[Jayextee]

So the Icon has an erection that DOOMguy inexplicably needs to ride to blow the Icon's head? No need to be prudish about it. It's the 21st Century, consenting adults and demons can do as they wish in the confines of their own WAD.

[pcorf]

- More John Romero maps.

- More (MIDI) music tracks.

- New super monster with 6,000hp as the final boss instead of the Icon of Sin wall texture. But it would also spawn enemies like the IOS and also have it's own firepower.

[Rudolph]

7 hours ago, Individualised said:

Dead Simple is MAP04 in the early level order, and MAP07 in the final order. However the layout is completely different from the final version, though the intended concept seems to be similar, so the final Dead Simple was probably done from scratch. By early August it had been replaced, as the 1.6 prototype (the closest match for what would be the executable for the July 29th version) already handles the death specials.

Is this the prototype you are referring to?

 

 

[Individualised]

27 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Is this the prototype you are referring to?

 

 

Yes, except the uploader is playing on a source port that acts like the final version of Doom 2.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Individualised

[Async Unicorn]

I would make intermission screens for Doom 2, yay!

Well, it also be great to fix bugs like Visplane Overflow, Tutti-Frutti Effect, and others.

Also I think it would be cool to not use DMX library and make a better GUS and OPL sound.

 

Some more monsters?.. Maybe a completely new final boss with variety of attacks? No more duplicate music?..

Oh, and definitely - there should be more city textures!

Edited October 31, 2023 by Vanilla+Unicorn

[Rudolph]

10 hours ago, Individualised said:

Yes, except the uploader is playing on a source port that acts like the final version of Doom 2.

It looks like a decent map, actually. Rather barebones visually, but I would not mind playing a polished and finished version of it.

 

"Doom II The Way It Could Have Been" needs to become a thing! :P

Edited October 30, 2023 by Rudolph

[Individualised]

5 hours ago, Rudolph said:

It looks like a decent map, actually. Rather barebones visually, but I would not mind playing a polished and finished version of it.

 

"Doom II The Way It Could Have Been" needs to become a thing! :P

I've thought of doing this (maybe as a community project), but IMO I'd rather play the final order and locations of the maps, just with the texturing and decorations redone to be distinct per episode theme like Doom 1. i.e. I'd make the first 7 maps actually look like they're on a space station (I'd give them their own skybox and remove elements that don't make sense), redesign the city maps to use more specific texturing and have more recognisable locations, make the Hell maps not overuse wooden textures

Edited October 30, 2023 by Individualised

[Zabloing The Conquerer]

BRING BACK THE INTERMISSION SCREEN IN DOOM 2!!!

[Kyka]

On 10/26/2023 at 1:32 AM, Jayextee said:

I mean, they don't. Nobody's ever stopped mappers from doing otherwise, and I can't even pretend to understand why it seems to be 'the thing to do', but I'm very tempted to one day make a megaWAD of 32 IoS fights just because.

 

Please please do this.

 

I mean now the community has 32 new variants on how to use the icon of sin?

 

It'll become a classic.

 

On topic, I would remove the icon of sin from Doom 2. Even in 1994, I thought it was rage inducing trash. And I didn't think anything was trash in 1994. We were just grateful to have any games to play. Those were dark times heh.

[Lila Feuer]

I've considered it an accomplishment to beat MAP30 without midlevel saving, I don't have the timing of that lift down to a science and I am more annoyed by not knowing if an Arch-vile will spawn in to completely ruin the run or not, or any flying monsters since they can and will fuck things up on that lift since this is the pure RNG part of the fight.

[Xaser]

This is sort of a cop-out answer to the OP, but skimming through this thread is really just making me think "damn, I love how moddable this game is". Pretty much everything in this thread is something that's either been achieved in a source port or is doable in a mod, so we're not stuck in a world of "what if"s like so many other games.

[Lila Feuer]

Yep, although at one point something even like the old Hellstorm (pre-Demon Eclipse) webpage made 12 y/o me think "How is this going to be possible? There's way more monsters here than actually replaceable in Doom!" And now we live in a post-DECORATE, zscript compatible world where the sky is the limit.

[Maximum Matt]

Mandate that Tom Hall call the shots creatively and make the game more mission- and story-based (and keep the card game at the start)

[Lila Feuer]

It would've been unfeasible given the technology at the time but something about a mundane card game before everything started going to hell would've been mind-blowing in '93, like the intro to Prey 13 years later. Just imagining the lights suddenly going out on them and then coming back on but flickering and hearing the sounds of teleporting and monsters roaming in the background with the sounds of gunshots followed by dying marines.

[GermanPeter]

For Doom 2, add way more city levels. Downtown and Suburbs are amazing, and Industrial Zone comes really close, but they really should have added way more. Even just changing some of the textures of certain levels to make them look more like towns or cities would have been great.

[Individualised]

4 hours ago, GermanPeter said:

For Doom 2, add way more city levels. Downtown and Suburbs are amazing, and Industrial Zone comes really close, but they really should have added way more. Even just changing some of the textures of certain levels to make them look more like towns or cities would have been great.

Bloodfalls was meant to be a city level - not just in the city episode but with actual city-textured buildings too.

[GermanPeter]

1 minute ago, Individualised said:

Bloodfalls was meant to be a city level - not just in the city episode but with actual city-textured buildings too.

Source?

[Individualised]

9 minutes ago, GermanPeter said:

Source?

Early level order from the Romero leaks shows that it was in the city episode:

https://tcrf.net/Development:Doom_II:_Hell_on_Earth_(PC)#.2Ftemp_Directory_Level_Differences

The prototype version on that date of the level also has some leftovers from the city texturing.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Individualised