Stuttering in all DOOM source ports tested

[nobleflame]

Hi all,

 

I'm experiencing a very strange issue that I did not have on my old PC. 

 

I've just updated to a 4090 and an i7 13700KF on windows 11.

 

On my current rig, I get very inconsistent frame times in DSDA, Eternity Engine and GZDOOM. My current settings are as follows:

- v-sync on in NVCP

- cap frame rate -3 below refresh rate: 141

- G-sync on

- full screen mode

 

What happens is the frame rate will constantly jump between 130 and 141 fps. Without G-sync active, this is completely unplayable as it produces very stuttery movement. 

 

Now here's the weird thing - If I disable all of the above settings and run the game completely uncapped, my FPS will go into the 1,000s and feel incredibly smooth. 

 

I read this thread (below) and wondered if I'm experiencing something related. I have all of the latest (dev) builds of the above ports but nothing I have tried so far seems to fix the issue. 

 

On my old PC (3070, i7 9700KF) all of the games ran flawlessly with a completely flat frame time graph and a consistent 141 FPS. 

 

 

Please, for the love of all that is DOOM, someone help me!

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by nobleflame

[rfomin]

7 hours ago, nobleflame said:

DSDA, Eternity Engine and GZDOOM

Are you using OpenGL backend on all these ports? If so, could you try software mode in DSDA, "SDL Default" videodriver in Eternity and Vulkan in GZDoom?

[nobleflame]

5 minutes ago, rfomin said:

Are you using OpenGL backend on all these ports? If so, could you try software mode in DSDA, "SDL Default" videodriver in Eternity and Vulkan in GZDoom?

 

I've tried changing to software (DSDA) and Vulkan in GZDOOM and I'm still getting the same results. 

Worth also mentioning that Eternity Engine only runs in software (as far as I know) and also produces stutter. 

[Flytrap]

Its probably because of your video settings.

To boot, some games dont like having their frames capped. Not sure if the source ports are like that, but it works like this for some other games

Second, v-sync is expecting full framerate, and you capped it below that. The two probably shouldnt be active at the same time. They are probably working against each other, resulting in this weirdness. You could download intel presentmon and check gpubusy, maybe it'd help figure this out, dunno

Why do you need these strange settings anyway?

G-sync i get, framecapping, sure, but why 3 FPS under refresh rate?
And why v-sync on top of this entire thing?

Edited October 28, 2023 by Flytrap

[nobleflame]

2 minutes ago, Flytrap said:

Its probably because of your video settings.

To boot, some games dont like having their frames capped. Not sure if the source ports are like that, but it works like this for some other games

Second, v-sync is expecting full framerate, and you capped it below that. The two probably shouldnt be active at the same time. They are probably working against each other, resulting in this weirdness. You could download intel presentmon and check gpubusy, maybe it'd help figure this out, dunno

Why do you need these strange settings anyway?

G-sync i get, framecapping, sure, but why 3 FPS under refresh rate?
And why v-sync on top of this entire thing?

 

I followed this guide regarding setting up g-sync: https://blurbusters.com/gsync/gsync101-input-lag-tests-and-settings/14/

 

On my old PC, setting a cap of 141 (-3 under monitor refresh) and enabling g-sync / v-sync, all source ports never dropped a frame below 141 and maintained a steady frame time graph. 

 

For some reason that I am yet to figure out, my new hardware is displaying massive frame variance despite the cap. It's producing game-breaking stutter.

 

If I remove all caps, remove gsync and vsync, my frames shoot up to the high hundreds. This feels smooth, but I'd rather not run these games at frames way above my monitors refresh due to screen tearing and the impact on my CPU.

[rfomin]

16 minutes ago, nobleflame said:

Worth also mentioning that Eternity Engine only runs in software (as far as I know) and also produces stutter. 

Yes, but it uses OpenGL for video output by default on Windows. Anyway, it doesn't matter if DSDA still stutters in software mode.

 

You can also try the latest version of Cispy Doom or Woof, they had the "mouse smooth" algorithm enabled by default.

[Flytrap]

23 minutes ago, nobleflame said:

 

I followed this guide regarding setting up g-sync: https://blurbusters.com/gsync/gsync101-input-lag-tests-and-settings/14/

 

On my old PC, setting a cap of 141 (-3 under monitor refresh) and enabling g-sync / v-sync, all source ports never dropped a frame below 141 and maintained a steady frame time graph. 

 

For some reason that I am yet to figure out, my new hardware is displaying massive frame variance despite the cap. It's producing game-breaking stutter.

 

If I remove all caps, remove gsync and vsync, my frames shoot up to the high hundreds. This feels smooth, but I'd rather not run these games at frames way above my monitors refresh due to screen tearing and the impact on my CPU.

I um... Do you actually 'see' the screen tearing at those hundreds of frames, because im sure they theoretically exist but i dont think you should be worrying about them if you cant see them. Why limit the framerate to get it to be smooth, when you could just uncap it and not hold the graphics back? It'd still be just as smooth, if not smoother.

 

Also, im not sure what that guide is trying to achieve, but its clearly not working for source ports, so i suggest you uncap your framerates, turn v-sync off, and not worry about these things.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Flytrap

[Graf Zahl]

Why not use real vsync? With your cap below the refesh rate you are working against the system and as you notice, your current setup does not like it.

 

1 hour ago, Flytrap said:

I um... Do you actually 'see' the screen tearing at those hundreds of frames, because im sure they theoretically exist but i dont think you should be worrying about them if you cant see them. Why limit the framerate to get it to be smooth, when you could just uncap it and not hold the graphics back? It'd still be just as smooth, if not smoother.

 

Oh you see the tearing. Let's say it runs at 1000 fps without cap. Not only do you get 7-8 tear lines on a 144 Hz monitor, you are also wasting a lot of energy. When running uncapped the power consumption of the entire system will skyrocket while with a sensible cap, either by vsync or an in-engine cap you ensure that your system is idle for some time which both keeps your fans from spinning up and the CPU and GPU from becoming too hot and drawing more power.

 

With most ports any input lag countermeasure won't work anyway because their input is completely locked to the 35 Hz game tick rate

[LuciferSam86]

I had the same problem  , with updated Nvidia drivers and keeping a fps limit of 140 fps and forcing vsync and gsync ensbled I fixed my problems. 

[nobleflame]

5 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

Why not use real vsync? With your cap below the refesh rate you are working against the system and as you notice, your current setup does not like it.

 

 

Oh you see the tearing. Let's say it runs at 1000 fps without cap. Not only do you get 7-8 tear lines on a 144 Hz monitor, you are also wasting a lot of energy. When running uncapped the power consumption of the entire system will skyrocket while with a sensible cap, either by vsync or an in-engine cap you ensure that your system is idle for some time which both keeps your fans from spinning up and the CPU and GPU from becoming too hot and drawing more power.

 

With most ports any input lag countermeasure won't work anyway because their input is completely locked to the 35 Hz game tick rate

 

Hi! Thanks for your guidance. 

I've taken a couple of videos that demonstrate the issue. This is DSDA DOOM in opengl - all latest builds and drivers updated. 

 

1. just v-sync (no g-sync) - completely unplayable:

https://streamable.com/dgo9an

 

2. completely uncapped - playable, but still inconsistent:

https://streamable.com/tpeusb

 

I'm at a total loss here. I feel like I've tried everything, but I just can't get DOOM to behave and accept a stable frame rate. Any cap I use will produce stuttering and fps fluctuations. 

 

[dpJudas]

That sure is weird. Here's a couple of things you can try:

 

1) If you have a different monitor, try plug it in and see if it makes any difference. It could be a hardware compatibility problem.

2) Force gsync/freesync on or gsync/freesync off. Shouldn't matter but if it is a hardware compatibility problem between the graphics card and the monitor then it could make all the difference.

3) In task manager, try sort the processes by CPU time (you have to first make the column visible) and see if something is consistently burning CPU time.

4) Some software adds hooks into graphics APIs like OpenGL and Vulkan so they can put their own overlays and other stuff on top. If one of those plugins are misbehaving they could cause such stutters. So if you have any recording software or other stuff you suspect could be doing such a thing, try uninstall them and see if it changes anything.

[nobleflame]

40 minutes ago, dpJudas said:

That sure is weird. Here's a couple of things you can try:

 

1) If you have a different monitor, try plug it in and see if it makes any difference. It could be a hardware compatibility problem.

2) Force gsync/freesync on or gsync/freesync off. Shouldn't matter but if it is a hardware compatibility problem between the graphics card and the monitor then it could make all the difference.

3) In task manager, try sort the processes by CPU time (you have to first make the column visible) and see if something is consistently burning CPU time.

4) Some software adds hooks into graphics APIs like OpenGL and Vulkan so they can put their own overlays and other stuff on top. If one of those plugins are misbehaving they could cause such stutters. So if you have any recording software or other stuff you suspect could be doing such a thing, try uninstall them and see if it changes anything.

 

Sadly I don't have another monitor to check hardware compatibility. That said, the G27Q is compatible with windows 11 and Nvidia GPUs, so I doubt it is the culprit. 

 

I've tried looking at background processes (GPU) but it all looks normal. E.g. DSDA and Windows Desktop Manager are at the top while DSDA is running. 

 

I'm not sure what software might be hooking into OpenGL and Vulkan APIs - I have RTSS running (to measure the frame rate / frame times) and Game Bar is also active - I can't disable this in windows 11. 

The only other background apps running are HWInfo64 and iCue - exiting out of these programs seems to have no effect on the issue I'm having, same goes for RTSS / MSI Afterburner. 

 

I'm not sure how I can check for other software that might be trying to hook into OpenGL or Vulkan. 

 

 

[mikeday]

This might be relevant: https://github.com/coelckers/prboom-plus/issues/524

 

In this instance the user found that Game Bar may have been the cause of the issue.

[nobleflame]

52 minutes ago, mikeday said:

This might be relevant: https://github.com/coelckers/prboom-plus/issues/524

 

In this instance the user found that Game Bar may have been the cause of the issue.

 

Thanks, I tried the game bar hack but it didn't fix the issue for me. Looks like they were on Windows 10 too, so not sure if that factors in. 

[ceski]

Since you're using RTSS, can you turn on the GPU core clock display? Sometimes older games on a high-end rig will cause the GPU's power management to kick in too aggressively, dropping it to a lower power state (you can see the core clocks fall) and causing an uneven framerate. You can see if setting "Power management mode" to "Prefer maximum performance" in the Nvidia control panel makes a difference. Similarly, you can temporarily try High/Ultimate performance power plans (search how to (re)enable those for Windows 11) or disabling E-cores. I think those are mostly placebo tweaks outside of benchmarking but it could rule out CPU scheduling issues.

[ceski]

Also, double check that you're really using these settings (basically the Blur Busters recommendations):

 

Nvidia control panel:

• Click "Restore" to set everything to default
• Low Latency Mode: On
• Max Frame Rate: Off (only use this if the game doesn't have an fps limiter)
• Monitor Technology: G-SYNC
• Power management mode: Prefer maximum performance
• Vertical sync: On
• Under "Set up G-SYNC" check enable for fullscreen

Source port:

• Use exclusive fullscreen
• Disable vertical sync
• Use uncapped framerate
• Set fps limit to 140, assuming your monitor is 144 Hz

 

Then, as a troubleshooting step only, try Max Frame Rate: 140 (Nvidia), and FPS limit: 0 or off (source port).

 

And to see if G-SYNC is actually working:

 

[nobleflame]

Hi all, I feel pretty stupid saying this but I've fixed the issue:

I've completely fixed the issue with a windows reinstall. Not sure what happened along the way, but perhaps a driver didn't attach properly. Who knows. Any way, for posterity, just reinstall windows! It seems to have fixed my issues at any rate.

Sorry for the confusion - I feel pretty silly. Thanks to all who offered me help!

[nobleflame]

One more thing to add: it was icue that was the culprit. Bloody Corsair!!

[kaleb.]

7 hours ago, nobleflame said:

One more thing to add: it was icue that was the culprit. Bloody Corsair!!

ahh, not surprised, icue is a piece of shit lol. I had to stop using it because it would randomly cause my entire keyboard to freeze and get stuck spamming one key.