Source Ports personal deal breakers

[LuciferSam86]

1 hour ago, kevansevans said:

It’s more of the principle of it that’s a turn off for me. Yes, it takes ten seconds to turn off, and I’m a happy camper, no big deal.

 

However: Not all GZDoom users know that this is a setting. This became painfully obvious when I started getting my content out into the world and watching other people play, and as far as I know, I can’t distribute a mod that can turn this off locally. This means that, whatever artistic vision I might have for anything I make, it’s going to get undermined.

 

This is why it’s such a stupid issue for them to be this stubbornly hung up on, and why it’s reflective of a poor relationship between the devs and users. The majority of players hate this feature. The original game was not designed with filtering. Very few people are making high res assets that justify filtering. Those that do like it will go through the same ten seconds to turn it on. It’s a waste of time to fork the engine just to make an executable that has it off.

 

It’s petty, and not the sole petty thing that’s been pulled out of spite in GZDoom’s development history.

 

Edit: Forgot to mention if it’s a deal breaker. With VKDoom hot in development, yeah it’s going to no longer be my engine of choice with how things are going, and it’s not just because texture filtering is off.

I mean another option might be on your readme just put "hey my mod was designed without the texture filtering, so please follow these instructions" , then it's up to the user to follow the instructions. Their computer their rules.

 

vkDoom is cool, but you might cut some users from using your mod because of hardware too old, or just not compatible. I was reading they are interested to put bleeding-edge features if they were interesting for them, so for absurd they could implement a vulkan feature found for the RTX 5090 but not for 4090. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by LuciferSam86

[kevansevans]

I’m definitely weighing that limitation right now. It’s not a decision a lot of us want to make, but Vulkan enabled cards are a lot more widespread than people are making it out to be, so no I don’t think we’ll run into a situation where the bleeding edge of gpu’s will always be the bare minimum.

 

A lot of people misplace the design goals of the gzdoom branch, which wasn’t to be bleeding edge, but to allow all of Doom’s rich modding history to be used on modern tech, which means dropping support for tech when it stops being the common denominator. VKDoom has that same goal in mind, but it’s more aggressive in culling out old tech since it’s more geared for commercial releases and being used as an actual engine, not just modding.

[Incognitonightraven]

Also I do have a question for you and graf, what other side you speak of, do they all agree or disagree  with you, I like to hear from you and see what type of process that convince you where the texture filter was a good idea or a revolutionary break through as a one of a kind engine that breaks the difference of all else of this community you speak of?

[CacoKnight]

7 hours ago, MFG38 said:

The reason I put the word "off" in quotes is that I know few source ports go out of their way to modify the player behavior extensively, but the movement can still feel drastically different between them for reasons unknown to me. Well, in most cases - GZDoom knowingly sacrifices vanilla accuracy in exchange for its extensive feature set. Ever since I migrated from GZDoom to DSDA-Doom as my primary source port, the movement in GZDoom has felt so weird to me that I don't find myself launching it all too often anymore. (There are other reasons too, but I'm going to refrain from stating them here, lest this thread turn into yet another drama central.)

They feel exactly the same to me, I've been playing around and tweaking settings for months to try to make all my ports similar. If someone pointed a gun at me telling me to pick ONE port I'd still pick GZDoom.

 

6 hours ago, Caffeine said:

My deal-breaker: the source port is not either DSDA-Doom or GZDoom.

Have you ever tried Nugget?

Edited November 16, 2023 by CacoKnight

[ChopBlock223]

8 hours ago, kevansevans said:

This means that, whatever artistic vision I might have for anything I make, it’s going to get undermined.

That's modding for you, that's just going to happen in all sorts of ways. Anything you publish for Doom is subject to be changed by someone, somehow, it is what it is.

 

7 hours ago, Devalaous said:

obsession with disabling crouching and jumping

As if I can't just erase those lines in Slade anyway, lmao. If I'm playing with GzDoom I'm most likely using a mod which transforms the gameplay anyway, so the authenticity is already out the window.

 

When I map, I do MBF21, and sometimes I put down something like a table, couch, altar, desk, coffin, medium sized crate, or add some other not-tall- object which details the environment to make it more alive, but sometimes they are deliberately placed in a way so that they can be an optional piece of cover for a player using a port like GzDoom.

 

You woudn't need it for any encounter (as that would be a ZDoomism), and it may only be exploitable in a limited sense, but for the right kind of gameplay mod those things add a lot of cool immersion (and for some gameplay mods, it may not even be robust enough cover to matter anyway).

[dpJudas]

10 hours ago, LuciferSam86 said:

vkDoom is cool, but you might cut some users from using your mod because of hardware too old, or just not compatible. I was reading they are interested to put bleeding-edge features if they were interesting for them, so for absurd they could implement a vulkan feature found for the RTX 5090 but not for 4090. 

Oh absolutely! If I acquire a 5090 and it has something I find very fun to code in, then I will do so. Because that's fun and that's my hobby!

 

Current hardware requirements for VKDoom are far more modest though. It will run on any Vulkan 1.0 that supports bindless textures (almost all VK 1.0 cards do). Such a card just won't be able to realtime update light maps or do ray traced dynamic lights. I find the hardware requirements for VKDoom to be quite reasonable. All we ask is that you have a card that is also usable for play modern games. It isn't the port for those that have a 10 year old computer or find it fun to run Doom on a Raspberry Pi.

[Edward850]

19 hours ago, ChopBlock223 said:

This is always an uphill battle with anything Doom though, regardless of how you intend for something, someone may very well just handle your work differently anyway, and that's something I feel you've gotta come to terms with. 

Except you're talking about modding, not the default presentation. Sure people can just mod the game in the same way that you can just slam ketchup onto a burger. But if you're making a burger that you intend to not have ketchup, you don't expect the waiter to be putting it on, in much the same way the source port shouldn’t be modifying the experience out of hand between the artist the player.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Edward850

[s4f3s3x]

Personal deal breaker:

 

Not having a MacOs release :' )

[LuciferSam86]

3 hours ago, dpJudas said:

Oh absolutely! If I acquire a 5090 and it has something I find very fun to code in, then I will do so. Because that's fun and that's my hobby!

 

Current hardware requirements for VKDoom are far more modest though. It will run on any Vulkan 1.0 that supports bindless textures (almost all VK 1.0 cards do). Such a card just won't be able to realtime update light maps or do ray traced dynamic lights. I find the hardware requirements for VKDoom to be quite reasonable. All we ask is that you have a card that is also usable for play modern games. It isn't the port for those that have a 10 year old computer or find it fun to run Doom on a Raspberry Pi.

Oh yeah I totally agree with you, since I have a nice 4070, and I like the vision you have for your project. 

 

Let's say I would like to see a support for at least two generations of GPUs like the current and the previous one for vkDoom, and not just the latest. 

 

 

 

Of course everything is imho :)

Edited November 17, 2023 by LuciferSam86

[dpJudas]

38 minutes ago, LuciferSam86 said:

Let's say I would like to see a support for at least two generations of GPUs like the current and the previous one for vkDoom, and not just the latest.

I've generally always made sure my changes (both in GZDoom and VKDoom) works with fallback paths and so on. This even includes ZDRay that can ray trace without RT cores. I've generally supported any version of Windows that is still officially supported by Microsoft as well. There are no prior examples of me releasing anything only working on the latest most expensive rigs.

 

What is important to understand here though is that a lot of users show up with a machine that doesn't even come with a real GPU (i.e. Intel UHD), have 4 GB of memory and maybe even runs Windows 7. Then they get really vocal about why we won't go the extra mile for supporting such a setup. When I added multithreaded rendering to the software renderer they were unhappy a Pentium 4 now ran slower, even though it made it run 4 times faster on a more current CPU. The message with VKDoom is basically that if you don't have gaming gear that works for typical games on Steam then your computer isn't the target audience for the port.

[LuciferSam86]

22 minutes ago, dpJudas said:

I've generally always made sure my changes (both in GZDoom and VKDoom) works with fallback paths and so on. This even includes ZDRay that can ray trace without RT cores. I've generally supported any version of Windows that is still officially supported by Microsoft as well. There are no prior examples of me releasing anything only working on the latest most expensive rigs.

 

What is important to understand here though is that a lot of users show up with a machine that doesn't even come with a real GPU (i.e. Intel UHD), have 4 GB of memory and maybe even runs Windows 7. Then they get really vocal about why we won't go the extra mile for supporting such a setup. When I added multithreaded rendering to the software renderer they were unhappy a Pentium 4 now ran slower, even though it made it run 4 times faster on a more current CPU. The message with VKDoom is basically that if you don't have gaming gear that works for typical games on Steam then your computer isn't the target audience for the port.

That was really clear, and I like your approach. 

[CacoKnight]

VKDoom is nice as well but since GZDoom integrated Vulkan wouldn't that make this port unnecessary or "obsolete"?

Edited November 17, 2023 by CacoKnight

[dpJudas]

The Vulkan backend in VKDoom is a newer version of the backend present in GZDoom. GZDoom will probably merge its changes back into GZDoom 5.0 when that is released.

 

At that point which port you prefer will come down to preferences (they don't use the same defaults, i.e. the infamous filtering defaults to nearest in VKD) and what will be added to VKDoom next. There are also things in VKDoom that have been [No]'ed for GZDoom. And there will probably be things in GZDoom at some point that won't be added in VKDoom. Like with many open source things, cross merging is a possibility and which you want to use can often come down to... wait for it... your personal deal breakers. :P

[CacoKnight]

Oh nice thank you for explaining all that, I’ve also “merged” all the settings so both are the same now and I can test the performances and not gonna lie, I really like it. For now it stays in my ports.

[ChopBlock223]

10 hours ago, Edward850 said:

Except you're talking about modding

Is GzDoom not modifying the experience out of the gate?

You're looking at hardware rendering with all kinds of effects, advanced scripting, and endless possibilities on how to change the visuals and gameplay, things which Doom and Doom 2 never had. Even if you go about configuring it to be as close to vanilla as possible you still won't have the pRNG or the demo compatibility, because those aren't really the point with the port in question, and other ports already fulfill those needs. Nothing stops you from grabbing a McCrispy Doom burger in this scenario, it's right across the street.

 

How is it fundamentally different that someone plays your levels with a non-vanilla port featuring an ugly smudge filter, and someone playing your levels with Final Doomer, Hideous Destructor, Doodle Broom, or Guncaster? Those aren't loaded into the port by default, but people who are unbothered by blurry pixels, or even like them, aren't typically going to be concerned in the slightest with whatever the author of a mapset intends for the art direction, in the same way that someone playing your levels with a gameplay mod isn't going to be particularly concerned about your exact intents for the gameplay.

[kevansevans]

1 hour ago, ChopBlock223 said:

How is it fundamentally different that someone plays your levels with a non-vanilla port featuring an ugly smudge filter, and someone playing your levels with Final Doomer, Hideous Destructor, Doodle Broom, or Guncaster?

 

You're misunderstanding where the interception of artistic intent is happening. Both me as a creator, and someone as a player, have full control over the intended experience. While I can't control how a user plays my creation, I can at least know what I put out, as is, that wad is exactly the way I want it. A player has to consciously go out of their way to ignore that, be it deliberately or out of ignorance.

 

Texture Filtering is a third party saying "No, your burger is going to have ketchup on it whether you like it or not, and your customer has to decide if they want to take it off". I shouldn't have to tell my customers that my burger isn't meant to have ketchup, and if I just concede that my burgers will forever have ketchup, that forces my hand on how I create my assets.

Edited November 17, 2023 by kevansevans

[ChopBlock223]

1 hour ago, kevansevans said:

A player has to consciously go out of their way to ignore that, be it deliberately or out of ignorance. 

Then it reflects on the end user, and there isn't exactly that much to be done about that.

 

1 hour ago, kevansevans said:

I shouldn't have to tell my customers that my burger isn't meant to have ketchup, and if I just concede that my burgers will forever have ketchup, that forces my hand on how I create my assets. 

It doesn't force my hand in the slightest. If someone wants to see my stuff with a smudge filter, that's their own fault and it's simply not my problem.

 

Also this whole burger analogy kind of doesn't hold together, because a burger place wouldn't typically be serving burgers which weren't their own, they would be sourcing their patties and other ingredients from suppliers, none which would be particularly concerned with the exact preparation their customer is doing. None of this reflects the Doom sourceport situation.

[Edward850]

36 minutes ago, ChopBlock223 said:

It doesn't force my hand in the slightest. If someone wants to see my stuff with a smudge filter, that's their own fault and it's simply not my problem. 

Again, you are not understanding the problem at all. The issue is the source port, not the end user. The source port is the one making these decisions out of the control of the modder and the end user doesn't know what the expectation is, nor can it be effectively communicated because of the absurd defaults.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Edward850

[ChopBlock223]

38 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

The source port is the one making these decisions out of the control of the modder 

It's already out of my control as soon as a user downloads it. There is nothing at all which binds anyone to enjoy it the correct and approved way, which I think is what makes Doom beautiful, the game is a completely free experience which anyone can shape just about however they please.

 

42 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

the end user doesn't know what the expectation is, nor can it be effectively communicated

Which end user? The end user who actually cares and who will disable the filter as the first thing they do, or the end user who doesn't care, who'll leave the filter on out of either apathy, or downright poor taste?

[LuciferSam86]

and then change the default, the user with the older config will say "Hey! I like texture filtering enabled, why did you change that!?".

It will be the same problem but from the other side, and the user will re-enable it doing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Maybe a ZMAPINFO setting, like the sector-lighting mode?

The sanest thing to do is put a README, explaining how to do it IMHO

[Edward850]

30 minutes ago, ChopBlock223 said:

Which end user? The end user who actually cares and who will disable the filter as the first thing they do, or the end user who doesn't care, who'll leave the filter on out of either apathy, or downright poor taste?

You are forgetting you are a power user. You legitimately know more then the average user, so you cannot use "you can just change it" as an explanation here when the average user does not know what's going on.

 

This is basic UX presentation 101, the default presentation of the thing you show to the user needs to be designed around the idea that the user does not know or care that the settings exist, because they do not know or care that the settings exist. If you leave the default in a particular way, they will never change it not because they prefer it, but because they think the game just comes that way. They can even go as far as to think that it's broken, so if your mod or art is forced the same way, they will think your mod or art is broken. This is repeatedly the same situation for any released game, Doom source ports are not magically different in this regard. I have released enough games to know how this works out.

 

This is why we had to go out of our way to force users to know that the Quake accessibility options exist because all anyone did was ignore the menu and then complained that the UI was broken, they have no idea what "high contrast" is or anything like that, they would never look for that. This was only solved when we made explicitly sure you couldn't ignore the accessibility menu on first run and actually had to pick an option.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Edward850

[LexiMax]

10 hours ago, dpJudas said:

At that point which port you prefer will come down to preferences (they don't use the same defaults, i.e. the infamous filtering defaults to nearest in VKD) and what will be added to VKDoom next.

 

Thank you.  For everyone's edification, VKDoom actually makes a number of other changes to default settings as well.

 

Out of curiosity, do you have a VKDoom bugtracker anywhere?  I did run into a crash when trying to switch from fullscreen to windowed mode from within the game.

[CacoKnight]

Thanks for that, apparently I have to disable way more stuff than I thought.

[bjh13]

5 hours ago, Edward850 said:

You are forgetting you are a power user. You legitimately know more then the average user, so you cannot use "you can just change it" as an explanation here when the average user does not know what's going on.

With all due respect, people using GZDoom and not just the Unity based Doom officially distributed are already in the power user category these days. Just like a user of vkQuake or Quakespasm vs your officially distributed Quake port.

I honestly think this is a pointless argument, Graf Zahl clearly isn't changing it at this point.

[Edward850]

38 minutes ago, bjh13 said:

With all due respect, people using GZDoom and not just the Unity based Doom officially distributed are already in the power user category these days. Just like a user of vkQuake or Quakespasm vs your officially distributed Quake port.

You'd think this but no. Gzdoom has basically been the default position for so long that quite a number of people just install Doom just to install Gzdoom. The Unity ports are only potentially more popular because of the console versions, but exclusively with PC it's a very different story.

 

And sure, Graf zahl never changes his mind, but equally there's no reason to stop criticizing him for his decisions, and that's the price he pays for his petty victory.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Edward850

[CacoKnight]

9 minutes ago, Professor Spastig said:

Why didnt the developer, have that feature checked off as default? I find it quite annoying where I have to do all this just to be immerse in game but to go here and there to get where I need to be now. I find it as a lazy and useless feature since I dont use it and never needed in the first place. So yeah, that is a real deal breaker for me when trying out a source port like this that dont follow the tradition of doom style game.

Agree with all that BUT the last part, still not a deal breaker for me because it can be disabled with few clicks but yeah, if a port pushed that and there was no option to disable it..

Edited November 18, 2023 by CacoKnight

[Incognitonightraven]

7 minutes ago, CacoKnight said:

Agree with all that BUT the last part, still not a deal breaker for me because it can be disabled with few clicks but yeah, if a port pushed that and there was no option to disable it..

It kinda is from what he is saying since why do you need to go to the settings to just change where every port are smart enough to know that, they dont need that weird feature in game so I think the developer of GZDoom which is graf,  needs to turn that off as default then leaving it on since this many people from this discussion still complain of why is this even a thing in the first place so yeah there is that. I am not using HD Upscale textures so logical sense is to have that off as default, but from your statement, many will disagree with you right off the bat of having this on.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Incognitonightraven
Clarification

[CacoKnight]

It's crazy also how many Doom players on YouTube that are so damn good with the game, pro stuff with UV skills etc. and they still have that setting enabled, I just close the tab honestly, can't watch it that way.

Edited November 18, 2023 by CacoKnight

[Incognitonightraven]

Makes you want to clean your eyes when watching that blurry effect, honesty it looks horrible in game, which is why VKDoom wont have that issue

[Incognitonightraven]

If any of you guys that have coding experiences of working with an engine or any type for graphic or any kind, feel free to reach out to judas and nash, the more help they can get the faster it will move to be a better alternative to a good source port of creating your own game using that engine. They really need the help, I know I feel like I am advertising for them but yeah, I like to see this shine much brighter and hoping to see what can nash do when he updated his disdain game with new features along the way.