Source Ports personal deal breakers

[Shepardus]

5 hours ago, CacoKnight said:

@Dark Pulse, I wanted to add another line on top of the first post about the "most accurate" port when used in software mode that supports at least MBF21 and possibly UDMF, which one/s would you say it is (asking you because of this)?

 

I was checking the configs of DSDA last night and I noticed they completely removed ENDOOM (you can still show it in the terminal), why the hell do that no idea because it's kind of cool to see it at least for PWADs but whatever.

 

So, back to the most accurate ... DSDA/From DOOM With Love, Woof!/Nugget/Cherry? That's about it? What about Eternity Engine? DelphiDoom?

Depends on what you mean by "most accurate," but assuming that means demo compatibility, your choices for MBF21 would be dsda-doom, Woof, and Eternity (and derivatives of those ports), of which dsda-doom and Eternity have UDMF support. Eternity can play back Boom/MBF demos but does not record them AFAIK (it can record vanilla demos with the -vanilla parameter). Doom Retro makes gameplay changes and is not demo-compatible.

[CacoKnight]

If demo compatibility means the port has to remain accurate to/or vanilla for sprites, AI, lights and all that then demo compatibility is the key, or maybe the "visual stuff" is just software mode and AI, movements etc. is the demo part then both are good to consider. Thank you.

Edited March 12 by CacoKnight

[Shepardus]

Demo compatibility encompasses game logic but not visuals; demos are essentially a list of player inputs, so it means that doing something in one demo-compatible port will produce the same result as doing the exact same thing in another port. This is also what complevels in dsda-doom and Woof are for; they represent the differences between different versions of Doom so the ports can support demos from these different versions which otherwise wouldn't be able to be played back in a single port.

 

By the way, I just remembered that Odamex supports MBF21 and can at least play back vanilla demos (don't know about Boom/MBF demos).

[ReaperAA]

Also despite Doom Retro being directly derived from Chocolate Doom, it isn't really more accurate than DSDA or Woof/Nugget. In fact, Retro doesn't have demo compatibility.

 

EDIT: Whoops I didn't see that there already was page 9 of the thread and folks have already answered :P

Edited March 12 by ReaperAA

[ApprihensivSoul]

As far as deal breakers, I don't care much about demo compat (though I certainly will account for it when rating for personal use, having the menu demos play adds alot for me,) but I care a great deal about monster-over-monster movement (must be included as an option) and slowdown (new versions of DoomRetro and GZDoom have been struggling with this more than they used to.) 

 

I also play in 640*400 a great deal, and not having that option makes me less likely to use the port, though it's not really a breaker.

 

Support for Midi customization I guess? All in all Nugget calls to my soul.

[liPillON]

7 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

As for UDMF, there's really no port that strives to maintain accuracy plus support it.

 

well there's dsda-doom, although its UDMF support is not 100% identical to zdoom's..

see here: https://github.com/kraflab/dsda-doom/blob/master/docs/udmf.md

 

[Meerschweinmann]

@CacoKnight See it from that simple viewpoint, if you are playing GZDoom and you are thinking/feeling after tweaking all those optical enhancements out, that there is no or only a tiny difference to faithful or vanilla ports in gameplay and look, then thinking about which of Crispy/Inter, Woof/Nugget, Eternity or DSDA has more accuracy is wasted time.

 

That is not meant negative by me. It is only another point of view to a simplify that thousands year old discussion which port is the most accurate.

GZDoom is the most advanced port with most of all differences, but even with that i would never say it feels completely different. It feels and behaves different for me, but not in a way that i would say it is a completely other game.

 

And with GZDoom and the biggest difference in mind, when there are differences in accuracy between Crispy/Inter, Woof/Nugget, Eternity or DSDA they are even tinier if not unnoticable.

What you can measure is demo compatibility, how good the port is able to play them back. GZDoom does not allow that because of changed game mechanics.

Edited March 12 by Meerschweinmann

[CacoKnight]

Yeah I figured there were other discussions that's why I only wanted to ask Dark, I was interested in hearing more about the RNG change in GZDoom and why etc. then I started thinking "well, if GZD does it, who else? Which port of those main ones is actually accurate?" etc.

 

Thanks for the inputs to all of you.

[Shepardus]

Boom changes the RNG method from Doom's original implementation (decino has an analysis video about it), so for source ports like Woof and dsda-doom the RNG method used depends on the complevel. For vanilla demos you need to use the original RNG, for Boom demos you need to use the Boom RNG. GZDoom has its own implementation, which I think uses the Mersenne Twister. In theory the more sophisticated RNG methods produce a more statistically random distribution, but in practice I doubt anyone can tell the difference without examining individual damage rolls in a demo.

[Meerschweinmann]

1 hour ago, Shepardus said:

but in practice I doubt anyone can tell the difference without examining individual damage rolls in a demo

 

Exactly that. For real gameplay and not demo-watching, even you would learn the order of all the numbers out of the vanilla RNG,

you have to do better things in game as analyse how many damage the next unknown enemy could have with weapon x or y.

As i said above, GZDoom feels a bit different for me, but probably not because of the RNG. And that "feel" is not a bad thing.

 

Even i am mainly playing with ports like Crispy/Inter, Woof and Eternity, because they feel and look more like i loved it back in the days, i like GZDoom for the countless mods it has and won't miss it. It is part of what DOOM has become today. No need to fight a holy war on which source port is the one and only :)

 

Btw: For many month i've been mapping the vanilla maps a friend and me made in the 90s to Eternity and GZDoom and blow them up with portals, 3D floors, new textures and other nice features like ACS scripting those two ports deliver. Doing so gives these maps many upgrades and new places. And after that i want to give the upgrades of these maps as far as it gets back to the vanilla maps. And hey i have fun in doing that and it is very interesting to see which port has which abilities.

Edited March 12 by Meerschweinmann

[redEYE]

14 hours ago, CacoKnight said:

If demo compatibility means the port has to remain accurate to/or vanilla for sprites, AI, lights and all that then demo compatibility is the key, or maybe the "visual stuff" is just software mode and AI, movements etc. is the demo part then both are good to consider. Thank you.

The question about demo compatibility as a measure for Doom experience is a bit awkward.

 

The demos are compatible but for me the mouse control sensitivity for example in DSDA-Doom is bit of a mystery. It's not the port's fault. I just have difficulties to find the setups quite as good and fluent as it is in one other compatible port. It's a sound in my head talking and comparing that "This is not as good as it could be. You should tinker the sensitivities and accelerations yet again!"

[CacoKnight]

I just use 13 sens and 1/no acceleration on every port, kind of measured all of them on doom2 entryway (360 degree tests etc.) and they feel mostly the same, 13 seems also the same as 1 in gzdoom, still no acceleration.

Edited March 13 by CacoKnight
typo

[ReaperAA]

18 hours ago, Shepardus said:

but in practice I doubt anyone can tell the difference without examining individual damage rolls in a demo.

 

To be fair, I can feel it when I am using SSG against cacodemons. In complevel 2, I find myself being able to 2 shot cacodemons more often than in Boom, MBF or GZDoom.

[ceski]

17 hours ago, redEYE said:

The demos are compatible but for me the mouse control sensitivity for example in DSDA-Doom is bit of a mystery. It's not the port's fault. I just have difficulties to find the setups quite as good and fluent as it is in one other compatible port. It's a sound in my head talking and comparing that "This is not as good as it could be. You should tinker the sensitivities and accelerations yet again!"

 

This should be useful: Mouse Sensitivity Conversion

[CacoKnight]

15 minutes ago, ceski said:

This should be useful: Mouse Sensitivity Conversion

Damn awesome stuff thank you!

 

So... 1 on GZDoom is actually 15 Vanilla and 16 DSDA? Geez, I thought it was 13 :)

[Meerschweinmann]

1 hour ago, ceski said:

This should be useful: Mouse Sensitivity Conversion

 

Hoho, without knowing this i configured the Crispy/International/Woof family ports with a sensitivity of 15 and found it equal to GZDoom

Nice to see i am not too old and my brain is working :)

 

How does this convert to Eternity Engine?

Edited March 13 by Meerschweinmann

[redEYE]

6 hours ago, ceski said:

 

This should be useful: Mouse Sensitivity Conversion

Thank you for your effort to help me, but ... I play with the vertical mouse movement enabled! Aided with keyboard movements. And only generic strafing/w mouse, not at all strafe left or right ... And no WASD. 8)
 

Chocolate with mouse_sensitivity 15 is close to what I've used to. But for Woof and DSDA-Doom those are far out.

[CacoKnight]

On 3/13/2024 at 11:38 AM, redEYE said:

But for Woof and DSDA-Doom those are far out.

It probably depends on the mouse DPI too, my settings from few posts back are at 1600DPI.

Edited March 31 by CacoKnight

[rfomin]

8 hours ago, redEYE said:

I play with the vertical mouse movement enabled! Aided with keyboard movements. And only generic strafing/w mouse, not at all strafe left or right ... And no WASD. 8)
 

Chocolate with mouse_sensitivity 15 is close to what I've used to. But for Woof and DSDA-Doom those are far out.

 

Woof's sensitivity should be exactly the same as Choco/Crispy's (that was a goal). Could you post a screenshot of your mouse options? (Options->General->Mouse tab). Also what version of Woof you are using?

[ceski]

18 hours ago, Meerschweinmann said:

How does this convert to Eternity Engine?

 

It's similar to the other vanilla-like ports. I added more details in the document: Mouse Sensitivity Conversion

 

12 hours ago, redEYE said:

Thank you for your effort to help me, but ... I play with the vertical mouse movement enabled! Aided with keyboard movements. And only generic strafing/w mouse, not at all strafe left or right ... And no WASD. 8)
 

Chocolate with mouse_sensitivity 15 is close to what I've used to. But for Woof and DSDA-Doom those are far out.

 

I added mouse strafing, vertical mouse movement, and free look conversions in the link above. Vanilla (with DOSBox Staging), Chocolate, Crispy, Eternity Engine, DSDA-Doom (with a bit of math), and Woof can match settings seamlessly. Please share your config.

Edited March 14 by ceski

[Noiser]

11 hours ago, redEYE said:

Chocolate with mouse_sensitivity 15 is close to what I've used to. But for Woof and DSDA-Doom those are far out.

Try to cap the game fps to 35. Mouse movement is very off when uncapped, for some reason.

[Meerschweinmann]

34 minutes ago, ceski said:

It's similar to the other vanilla-like ports. I added more details in the document: Mouse Sensitivity Conversion

 

Thank you Ceski for this infos.

It's always interesting when a developer gives you behind-the-scenes insights. With this list, you don't have to guess anymore to achieve comparable settings.

[Doomgoonie]

if your port cant render doom as if its run on an oldfart pc with stretched resolution 256 colors and huge text, it's not a doom port. period. zdoom 2.8.1 is the endpoint before "pale moodern imitation of doom" ports for me, prboom+ is perfect

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

6 hours ago, Doomgoonie said:

if your port cant render doom as if its run on an oldfart pc with stretched resolution 256 colors and huge text, it's not a doom port. period.

Thanks for clearing that up, you are very cool and hardcore Doom purist.

 

Quote

zdoom 2.8.1 is the endpoint before pale moodern imitation of doom

ikr it's nothing like Doom, they made it like Call of Duty now.

 

If you think post-zdoom 2.8.1 is a "pale moodern imitation" of Doom, you either need to get outside a little more often or take five minutes to change some settings.

[redEYE]

15 hours ago, rfomin said:

Could you post a screenshot of your mouse options? (Options->General->Mouse tab). Also what version of Woof you are using?

 

Thank you all but this is not a big deal. I enjoy playing various source ports. It's great that they do feel and look different although they play the same game. Personally I don't understand the voices that everyone should behave and look exactly the same. :P

 

What CacoKnight said, this might be up to mouse or other system things. I've an old laptop and old Logitech M-BT83 mouse (1000DPI?). On Windows I've elevated MouseSensitivity 16 (HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Mouse). I must check the framerates and resolutions now.

 

On Chocolate I've got used to the slider max value:10 and how it feels. Modern sourceports let set the mouse values much higher and I've done that. With DSDA Doom and Woof the question is partly that they are the prime examples of the future development. MBF21 and MBF2X feel interesting. DSDA Doom being the successor of PrBoom+. :)

 

My mouse configs:

Spoiler

 

For me both Woof and DSDA Doom are on the right field. Lacking an inch of something.

 

 

Woof 1.4.2.0.
Turn sensitivity 36
Move sensitivity 24
Strafe sensitivity 24
Mouse acceleration 1.0

 

DSDA Doom 0.27.5:
Horizontal 41
Vertical 24
Acceleration 0

 

Doom Retro is a compromise. Vertical movement and strafing are a bit too slow but higher values make the horizontal too fast:
m_sensitivity 56

 

I'm pretty happy with GZDoom 4.10.3b:
turning/m_yaw 2.0
forward/m_forward 8.0
strafe/m_side 8.0

 

What I miss is the stone age PrBoom+ 2.5.1.4 SDL 1.2: mouse_sensitivity_horiz 5, mouse_sensitivity_vert 5, acceleration 0. It's still annoyingly good! Like a thought.

 

 

[CacoKnight]

6 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

they made it like Call of Duty now.

They who? With a few config lines you can make it look and behave like any other source port.

[DreadWanderer]

40 minutes ago, CacoKnight said:

They who? With a few config lines you can make it look and behave like any other source port.

 

Within limits of course. AFAIK the RNG tables in GZ are far from vanilla, even on the Doom (strict) complevel. Then there's stuff like the chainsaw and fist actually doing good hit detection on very wide sprites like mancs and masterminds. Getting close is certainly doable though.

[CacoKnight]

Yeah Shepardus and others were saying that and they also said the "new system" may even be better, that doesn't matter anyway, there should always be a way to keep it or switch it to whatever Id Software intended.

Edited March 14 by CacoKnight

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

43 minutes ago, CacoKnight said:

They who? With a few config lines you can make it look and behave like any other source port.

You know who.....

 

 

That bastard right there ☝️ turned a classic FPS into Modern Warfare 4!!!

[ceski]

 

4 hours ago, redEYE said:

On Windows I've elevated MouseSensitivity 16 (HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Mouse).

[...]

What I miss is the stone age PrBoom+ 2.5.1.4 SDL 1.2: mouse_sensitivity_horiz 5, mouse_sensitivity_vert 5, acceleration 0.

 

Okay, that's the information I needed. You prefer the mouse input of PrBoom+ 2.5.1.4 which uses a very old version of SDL (1.2.14) that allows Windows to apply its mouse pointer "ballistics" to the input. That means your registry edit multiplies your mouse input in PrBoom+ by a factor of 1.6 or 2.5, depending on if you have "Enhance pointer precision" enabled or disabled.

 

In contrast, today's actively maintained source ports use newer versions of SDL (2.0+) which read the mouse input directly, bypassing Windows sensitivity/acceleration. This is the preferred way to read mouse input for games, but it also means your registry edit has no effect so your mouse will seem "slower".

 

With that said, if you want Woof or DSDA-Doom to match your old PrBoom+ settings exactly, then try these values. If they don't work, read this and blame Windows.

Edited March 14 by ceski