Doom textures missing in Doom 2

[JRT]

I am working on a vanilla compatible wad for doom 2 and I noticed there are some textures from ultimate doom that are missing. I was looking to see if there was a way to get them into my preexisting Wad. I'm pretty new to modding doom I only started about a year ago.

Edit: answered

Edited November 17, 2023 by JRT
update

[Doomkid]

Here it is, https://doomshack.org/uploads/DOOM1-2.WAD

 

This will put all D1 textures in D2!

[DoomGater]

On 11/14/2023 at 9:34 PM, JRT said:

I am working on a vanilla compatible wad for doom 2 and I noticed there are some textures from ultimate doom that are missing.

hmm, my understanding is that it is not vanilla compatible if an additional resource is required that is not found in either Doom 2 or your mod.
Or am I taking too narrow a view? Vanilla compatible is not the same as 'non-limit-removing, isn't  it?

 

[Faceman2000]

5 hours ago, DoomGater said:

hmm, my understanding is that it is not vanilla compatible if an additional resource is required that is not found in either Doom 2 or your mod.
Or am I taking too narrow a view? Vanilla compatible is not the same as 'non-limit-removing, isn't  it?

Far too narrow. Vanilla-compatible means exactly that - the mod is compatible with the original executable. The original executable can of course handle new textures, new sprites, and even new enemies if done via Dehacked.

[JRT]

The wad's in Doom - Doom 2 format, and I've already remade it from my previous map and then from grid paper, so remaking it won't be the first thing I want to do.

I would be fine without D2's added textures and demons though, so If I could somehow convert it without remaking it by hand I would like to.

Doom1-2.wad doesn't work with Crispy Doom unless launched from Ultimate Doom Builder directly, so I don't think I can use it.

here's the map file: MAP01.zip

 

[DoomGater]

On 11/16/2023 at 3:56 AM, Faceman2000 said:

Far too narrow. Vanilla-compatible means exactly that - the mod is compatible with the original executable. The original executable can of course handle new textures, new sprites, and even new enemies if done via Dehacked. 

 

I agree completely. BUT this mod would require the original DOOM2 + the mod + some stuff from DOOM, which can be regarded as a third-party addon containing the work of others.

So not only DOOM2 and your work is required, but in addition some stuff from another game. Of course, you can integrate the textures into your pwad. I know, in 2023 nobody cares about that, but strictly speaking this might be problematic as your're using copyrighted material from another game. Technically. this might be a vanilla-compatible mod, but legally....I am not so sure...

 

[Finnisher]

16 hours ago, JRT said:

The wad's in Doom - Doom 2 format, and I've already remade it from my previous map and then from grid paper, so remaking it won't be the first thing I want to do.

I would be fine without D2's added textures and demons though, so If I could somehow convert it without remaking it by hand I would like to.

Doom1-2.wad doesn't work with Crispy Doom unless launched from Ultimate Doom Builder directly, so I don't think I can use it.

here's the map file: MAP01.zip

 

 

You have to import the textures into the map wad (from the texture wad) with a resource editor like Slade.

However doing it in vanilla format is tricky and I for one do not know how it is done with vanilla.

 

I wanted to do this very thing with the map I'm working on atm and it made me switch to UDMF format as there importing / adding textures is rather straightforward.

 

(I once half-managed to merge D1 assets into a vanilla format D2 map by copying necessary graphics + PNAMES and TEXTURE1 lumps from DOOM.wad into the map wad, and then deleting duplicates, but they only worked in source ports that support cumulative resources, so I'm guessing I would have needed to renumber the Doom 1 patches and update the corresponding textures manually)

Edited November 17, 2023 by Finnisher

[RjY]

1 hour ago, DoomGater said:

[...] I know, in 2023 nobody cares about that, but strictly speaking this might be problematic as your're using copyrighted material from another game. Technically. this might be a vanilla-compatible mod, but legally....I am not so sure...

FWIW, IIRC, no-one has ever cared apart from two occasions.

There was the famous case of KDIZD, which I believe, in order to require only doom2.wad, imported most of doomu.wad. That was until an overly enthusiastic team member went so far as to contact id Software to ask if this was allowed, to which of course they obviously said no. So it was ported to The Ultimate Doom.

Then there was Plutonia 2, which at first imported all the Plutonia IWAD textures and only required doom2.wad to run. myk strongly objected to this, but to be fair, also took it upon himself to do the work to port it to the correct IWAD, no doubt considerably reducing the file size in the process.

[Li'l devil]

25 minutes ago, RjY said:

There was the famous case of KDIZD, which I believe, in order to require only doom2.wad, imported most of doomu.wad. That was until an overly enthusiastic team member went so far as to contact id Software to ask if this was allowed, to which of course they obviously said no. So it was ported to The Ultimate Doom.

lol, that was like making an emulator and asking Nintendo if you're allowed to do so. What kind of answer did they expect? Not only they got "no", also probably put themselves on id's watchlist for some time. Really stupid!

Edited November 17, 2023 by Li'l devil

[Faceman2000]

id’s current feelings on the matter are made clear by the fact that several of the wads they’ve made into official addons were being distributed with resources from other IWADs in them before they became official. I’m sure if you called and asked you’d get a different answer, but in practice they have zero issue with it.

[JRT]

6 hours ago, RjY said:

until an overly enthusiastic team member went so far as to contact id Software to ask if this was allowed, to which of course they obviously said no. So it was ported to The Ultimate Doom.

the last thing I want is this to not be legally sound, I think Ill just work on porting it over to D1 intel a better solution is found.

Thanks for the help everyone!

[RjY]

1 hour ago, JRT said:

the last thing I want is this to not be legally sound, I think Ill just work on porting it over to D1 intel a better solution is found.

Well I agree with Faceman and think you are labouring under a misapprehension, but if you insist, I believe cc4-tex contains an almost** complete recreation of the set of Doom1 graphics that were missing from Doom2. As I understand it, these were created from scratch, although I do not know by whom.

 

At least, I have previously used it as a convenience to load Doom1 wads into Doom2. Just now, to make sure, I was able to load nearly** all Doom1 maps into PrBoom+ with no texture errors, having extracted them into a PWAD, renamed to MAPxx.

________
** (almost/nearly): except for SP_DUDE3 (E3M{4,5}) and SP_DUDE6 (E2M{8,9}), which for some reason appear to be missing. This should go in TADYJFO :).

[JRT]

6 hours ago, Faceman2000 said:

distributed with resources from other IWADs in them before they became official. I’m sure if you called and asked you’d get a different answer, but in practice they have zero issue with it.

5 hours ago, RjY said:

Well I agree with Faceman and think you are labouring under a misapprehension

Man I guess I just read that way too fast or something, I completely misinterpreted it. Using Ultimate Doom Builder I converted it pretty fast, and I like the episodic format much better for pacing. I would mess with stuff to get it working in doom 2 or get the missing textures from D2 but this is my first wad* and I want to keep it simple stupid for now.

5 hours ago, RjY said:

I believe cc4-tex contains an almost** complete recreation of the set of Doom1 graphics that were missing from Doom2.

I was able to load nearly** all Doom1 maps into PrBoom+ with no texture errors, having extracted them into a PWAD, renamed to MAPxx.
________
** (almost/nearly): except for SP_DUDE3 (E3M{4,5}) and SP_DUDE6 (E2M{8,9}), which for some reason appear to be missing. This should go in TADYJFO :).

thanks, I'll go check out cc4-tex!

I think my question has been answered. I'll leave the page up incase anyone else is going to ask the same thing. when/if I finish the wad I'll upload a link to the final product if I'm satisfied with it.

Thanks for the help everyone!

* I have made about 3 wads, but they all sucked and where mostly to learn the basics of modding.

[roadworx]

On 11/17/2023 at 3:06 AM, RjY said:

There was the famous case of KDIZD, which I believe, in order to require only doom2.wad, imported most of doomu.wad. That was until an overly enthusiastic team member went so far as to contact id Software to ask if this was allowed, to which of course they obviously said no. So it was ported to The Ultimate Doom.

jesus, that first thread is a shitshow. no wonder kdizd's development has such a bad reputation

 

also, this post is prophetic, heh:

On 3/2/2005 at 4:47 AM, Dco16 said:

Damn it this is going to be one of those projects that lives on in history for its high level of bullshit needed for completion.

Edited November 18, 2023 by roadworx

[plums]

On 11/17/2023 at 10:31 AM, Li'l devil said:

lol, that was like making an emulator and asking Nintendo if you're allowed to do so. What kind of answer did they expect? Not only they got "no", also probably put themselves on id's watchlist for some time. Really stupid!

"Hey officer, do you need to do anything about these illegal drugs I have on me? I mean it's only a little, right?"

 

There are all kinds of situations where people are happy to turn a blind eye to something, as long as you're being discreet. But if you deliberately bring it to their attention they have no choice but to respond, and not in the way you might hope.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

14 minutes ago, roadworx said:

jesus, that first thread is a shitshow. no wonder kdizd's development has such a bad reputation.

The ZDoom thread is the worst: "Let me put 812 hours into this project and then suddenly have a moral crisis and ask if it's okay on a legal and technical level, even though I know they're going to say no anyway because they have to. Okay, they said no. Pulling out because there is definitely a very real chance that I'm personally going to get sued for this."

[Individualised]

On 11/17/2023 at 10:31 AM, Li'l devil said:

lol, that was like making an emulator and asking Nintendo if you're allowed to do so. What kind of answer did they expect? Not only they got "no", also probably put themselves on id's watchlist for some time. Really stupid!

In that case Nintendo wouldn't actually be able to say "no" because they literally have no legal right to. So much so that when Valve asked them about Dolphin on the Steam store, their lawyers had to desperately stretch the law (they also told Valve false information which is a big no-no) to come up with a reason as to why they shouldn't allow Dolphin on Steam

Edited November 18, 2023 by Individualised

[DoomGater]

On 11/17/2023 at 11:06 AM, RjY said:

FWIW, IIRC, no-one has ever cared apart from two occasions.

There was the famous case of KDIZD, which I believe, in order to require only doom2.wad, imported most of doomu.wad. That was until an overly enthusiastic team member went so far as to contact id Software to ask if this was allowed, to which of course they obviously said no. So it was ported to The Ultimate Doom.

Then there was Plutonia 2, which at first imported all the Plutonia IWAD textures and only required doom2.wad to run. myk strongly objected to this, but to be fair, also took it upon himself to do the work to port it to the correct IWAD, no doubt considerably reducing the file size in the process.

 

That's exactly, what I mean. You just think "nobody cares anymore, I don't give a fuck!" an WHAM shit his the fan.
If you have an option to avoid such trouble....go for it an make use of it ! :-)

[Lila Feuer]

On 11/17/2023 at 4:06 AM, RjY said:

There was the famous case of KDIZD, which I believe, in order to require only doom2.wad, imported most of doomu.wad. That was until an overly enthusiastic team member went so far as to contact id Software to ask if this was allowed, to which of course they obviously said no. So it was ported to The Ultimate Doom.

 

TIL that was a thing that happened. JFC.

[Faceman2000]

7 hours ago, DoomGater said:

 

That's exactly, what I mean. You just think "nobody cares anymore, I don't give a fuck!" an WHAM shit his the fan.
If you have an option to avoid such trouble....go for it a make use of it ! :-)

Except. . . In both of those examples, that’s not what happened. There was no WHAM - in one case the dude went out of his way to see if he could specific legal permission, which of course they weren’t gonna give, and the other case was another dude unnecessarily concerned about that giving himself a bunch of extra work to do. In neither case did id come after anyone or threaten prosecution against anyone or pay any particular attention.

 

The only id member in current active interaction with the classic Doom community is Sponge, who selects the official addons, and as I stated earlier he has repeatedly demonstrated that he’s not concerned about it.

[DoomGater]

So in your opinion, the absence of jurisdiction justifies questionable behavior.
Do you work in politics or in industry?

[Faceman2000]

1 hour ago, DoomGater said:

So in your opinion, the absence of jurisdiction justifies questionable behavior.
Do you work in politics or in industry?

No, I believe there is often a difference between what is technically allowed and what is actually considered acceptable by copyright holders. id’s behavior has conclusively demonstrated that they have no issue with what you are creating issues around. They can’t put that in writing as a case of CYA of course, but that doesn’t mean official policy reflects their actual attitudes. It’s not a lack of jurisdiction justifying anything.

 

And if you’re gonna resort to personal attacks, I won’t respond further.

[DoomGater]

14 hours ago, Faceman2000 said:

No, I believe there is often a difference between what is technically allowed and what is actually considered acceptable by copyright holders. id’s behavior has conclusively demonstrated that they have no issue with what you are creating issues around. They can’t put that in writing as a case of CYA of course, but that doesn’t mean official policy reflects their actual attitudes. It’s not a lack of jurisdiction justifying anything.

 

And if you’re gonna resort to personal attacks, I won’t respond further. 

No offense intended, I was just kidding :-) !

[JRT]

wad:

proto.zip

Edited November 25, 2023 by JRT

[Individualised]

2 minutes ago, JRT said:

wad:

Why was this post just a "." before you edited it with this?

[JRT]

7 minutes ago, Individualised said:

Why was this post just a "." before you edited it with this?

I'm not sure why I did that honestly.

[No-Man Baugh]

19 minutes ago, JRT said:

wad:

proto.zip

Pretty good map so far, nice detailing and enemy distribution

 

Looking forward to the finalized wad if this is what the prototype looks like

[JRT]

 

On 11/25/2023 at 10:58 AM, No-Man Baugh said:

Pretty good map so far, nice detailing and enemy distribution

Looking forward to the finalized wad if this is what the prototype looks like

Thanks! I've kind of been worried that I haven't been doing good with monster placement. I think I'll give another tease once the first level is finished, the levels will like D1's episodes

Edited December 5, 2023 by JRT
stated incorrectly

[Li'l devil]

Okay, but the more important question is: if I upload a wad for Doom 2 that uses textures from Doom 1, will it get rejected for "Contains unmodified id Software resource(s)"?

Edited December 2, 2023 by Li'l devil

[RjY]

1 hour ago, Li'l devil said:

Okay, but the more important question is: if I upload a wad for Doom 2 that uses textures from Doom 1, will it get rejected for "Contains unmodified id Software resource(s)"?

It is my understanding (from [1] , [2]) that it will not:

Quote

2. Don't include unmodified resources (sprites, patches, sounds, music, etc.) from the commercial IWAD that your upload is designed to work with.