Why 32 Levels?

[Rudolph]

Was it ever explained by Id Software why Doom II ended up being 32 levels long instead of 28 or 36?

 

Granted, Doom was originally 28 levels long and it was only increased to 36 with The Ultimate Doom re-release, but that suggests to me that space was not the reason for Doom II's shorterlonger length. Did Id Software feel like 3628 maps was too longshort in retrospect? Did they run out of content to put in the game before the release date? Did they simply pick the number at random?

Edited November 22, 2023 by Rudolph

[Individualised]

Evidence suggests 40 maps were originally planned for Doom 2; some versions of Doom 2 allow you to IDCLEV up to MAP40 (though MAP36 and beyond are not possible to use in Doom 2), and the source data release has unused maps in slots 33-36. MAP35 contains a version of IDMAP01 so the last 8 slots may have been intended for deathmatch (if you're curious, MAP33 is empty, MAP34 contains a version of Underhalls, and MAP36 seems to be a test level or the beginnings of a map). Quake also has 32 singleplayer maps (if you count START.BSP), and would have had 8 deathmatch maps but 2 of them were cut.

 

Also 32 is a power of 2.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Individualised

[MFG38]

I dunno, maybe they just made levels without thinking much about how many they wanted to make and at a particular point went "alright, we have enough maps, this is shippable".

[Maximum Matt]

30 regular maps + 2 secret maps, more than 8 regular + 1 secret (per episode) in the original Doom.  Remember, Ultimate Doom (with the forth episode) came out after Doom II.  

5 hours ago, Individualised said:

Quake also has 32 singleplayer maps

And even though Quake had an episodic format, it wasn't of a consistent length (eps 1 and 4 were 8 levels each, 2 and 3 were 7, plus the intro and end levels = 32)

[Amaruψ]

It's a sensible set, to be honest. 10 Tech-Base levels, 10 Earth levels, 10 Hell levels and two secret ones.

 

Granted, they've utterly botched the perfectly set concept by including an irregular amount of all 3 instead.

[SupremeBioVizier]

What's up with the hidden levels that aren't on the map when You go to console, played one today where four keens lead to an exit or something, cyber demon guarding them, seemed random AF.

[Sonikkumania]

11 minutes ago, SupremeBioVizier said:

What's up with the hidden levels that aren't on the map when You go to console, played one today where four keens lead to an exit or something, cyber demon guarding them, seemed random AF.

It's just an easter egg hidden level based on the 1st boss of Wolfenstein 3D.

[OpenRift]

6 hours ago, Individualised said:

Evidence suggests 40 maps were originally planned for Doom 2; some versions of Doom 2 allow you to IDCLEV up to MAP40 (though MAP36 and beyond are not possible to use in Doom 2), and the source data release has unused maps in slots 33-36. MAP35 contains a version of IDMAP01 so the last 8 slots may have been intended for deathmatch (if you're curious, MAP33 is empty, MAP34 contains a version of Underhalls, and MAP36 seems to be a test level or the beginnings of a map). Quake also has 32 singleplayer maps (if you count START.BSP), and would have had 8 deathmatch maps but 2 of them were cut.

  

Also 32 is a power of 2.

Which source data release are you referring to? Are you talking about the official release from '97 or the '96 source code disc that leaked earlier this year?

[Individualised]

43 minutes ago, OpenRift said:

Which source data release are you referring to? Are you talking about the official release from '97 or the '96 source code disc that leaked earlier this year?

No, Romero's source data release in 2015.

[LoatharMDPhD]

//I'm not following any of that convention....

got the original 10, some tweaks, but mostly just polish.

one more a map11 which im finishing, with secret exits that skip the filler levels.

the community projects integrated, and the secret levels, and then... and then OAR...

... just took a break and heard my cpu fan spin down, must've been workin...

Edited November 22, 2023 by LoatharMDPhD

[LoatharMDPhD]

8 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Was it ever explained by Id Software why Doom II ended up being 32 levels long?

 

Granted, Doom was originally 28 levels long and it was only increased to 36 with The Ultimate Doom re-release, but that suggests to me that space was not the reason for Doom II's shorter length. Did Id Software feel like 36 maps was too long in retrospect? Did they run out of content to put in the game before the release date? Did they simply pick the number at random?

fits nicely .ZIP'ed onto 5 floppies...

[SupremeBioVizier]

About ten minutes in, Romero playing og DOOM, there's a door on e1m1(never knew that was the last level made for og doom!)..health bonus sprites are different, sounds are amateur, amazing

Edited November 22, 2023 by SupremeBioVizier

[Rudolph]

9 hours ago, Amaruψ said:

It's a sensible set, to be honest. 10 Tech-Base levels, 10 Earth levels, 10 Hell levels and two secret ones.

 

Granted, they've utterly botched the perfectly set concept by including an irregular amount of all 3 instead.

When you put it like that, it does indeed make sense.

 

9 hours ago, Maximum Matt said:

30 regular maps + 2 secret maps, more than 8 regular + 1 secret (per episode) in the original Doom.  Remember, Ultimate Doom (with the forth episode) came out after Doom II. 

Yeah, that is true. I guess it would have made more sense to expect Id Software to make Doom II 28 maps long then.

[Meyland12]

15 hours ago, Individualised said:

Evidence suggests 40 maps were originally planned for Doom 2; some versions of Doom 2 allow you to IDCLEV up to MAP40 (though MAP36 and beyond are not possible to use in Doom 2), and the source data release has unused maps in slots 33-36. MAP35 contains a version of IDMAP01 so the last 8 slots may have been intended for deathmatch (if you're curious, MAP33 is empty, MAP34 contains a version of Underhalls, and MAP36 seems to be a test level or the beginnings of a map). Quake also has 32 singleplayer maps (if you count START.BSP), and would have had 8 deathmatch maps but 2 of them were cut.

 

Also 32 is a power of 2.

 

I wonder which 2 of quake deathmatch levels were cut? I know DM7 map which was cut in orginal quake but DM8? 🤔

 

Well Quake 1 is first ID Solfware game which has offical deathmatch levels but nice to know Doom 2 was going to have a bit more maps which some would be maybe for deathmatch too.

[Individualised]

6 hours ago, Meyland12 said:

 

I wonder which 2 of quake deathmatch levels were cut? I know DM7 map which was cut in orginal quake but DM8? 🤔

 

The level was never finished beyond the starting area. It's in one of Romero's releases.

[spineapple tea]

This thread is a bit old but Romero is streaming right now and I asked him this question. He said that thirty maps were initially planned and two secret maps ended up getting made. Basic answer, yeah, but that's about as official of an answer as it gets.

[Mystic 256]

On 11/21/2023 at 3:46 PM, Individualised said:

Evidence suggests 40 maps were originally planned for Doom 2; some versions of Doom 2 allow you to IDCLEV up to MAP40 (though MAP36 and beyond are not possible to use in Doom 2), and the source data release has unused maps in slots 33-36. MAP35 contains a version of IDMAP01 so the last 8 slots may have been intended for deathmatch (if you're curious, MAP33 is empty, MAP34 contains a version of Underhalls, and MAP36 seems to be a test level or the beginnings of a map). Quake also has 32 singleplayer maps (if you count START.BSP), and would have had 8 deathmatch maps but 2 of them were cut.

 

Also 32 is a power of 2.

 

Looking at level and their themes, even though they are abstract, It does give me the feel like there were more "Episodes" to doom 2 in a way, which would might hint to the possibility of there being more than 32 levels at one point

 

The first couple levels are techbase and that seems to make up the "Techbase episode" fine, and then you get some urban / city levels but then theres medievalish levels too in the "city episode", then there are mining complexes mixed in with hell levels for the "Hell Episode"

 

[Individualised]

1 hour ago, Mystic 256 said:

 

Looking at level and their themes, even though they are abstract, It does give me the feel like there were more "Episodes" to doom 2 in a way, which would might hint to the possibility of there being more than 32 levels at one point

 

The first couple levels are techbase and that seems to make up the "Techbase episode" fine, and then you get some urban / city levels but then theres medievalish levels too in the "city episode", then there are mining complexes mixed in with hell levels for the "Hell Episode"

 

You're actually not far off. Towards the end of development (specifically on July 29th, 1994) they almost completely changed the level order (only Entryway and Industrial Zone remained in their slots), and many levels switched episodes. Some of these levels were rethemed and redesigned to fit their new slots better, but many only had difficulty adjustments made. This, alongside a large amount of textures being cut from Doom 2 later on, is why Doom 2 has a much more generic look than Doom 1.

 

I think 32 singleplayer levels was the intention for most of the game's development though. And I just saw that Romero also said that, so yeah.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Individualised