Is it ok to make a community project of an idea that's already done?

[Johnny Cruelty]

I enjoy wads such as "Doom the way id did" or "Doom 2 in name only" or "going down" but I wonder... is it ok to make Community Porjects of them... again?

Like after playing DTWID, I wanna play a re-envisioning of it, but is it best to do it once and never do it again?

[LoatharMDPhD]

// As Long as it's not a Copy and Paste job...

[Individualised]

I think that would be considered a faux pas in the community. Maybe something like DTWID but for Final Doom or Master Levels (I know Final Doom did have a TWID project but it seems to have been put indefinitely on hold). I definitely would like to see a "DTWID take 2" though because to be honest a lot of the maps don't feel like official id levels to me and I think people these days could do a much better job now that the subtleties of id's level design are much more well known; I've played a lot more recent maps that feel like they could fit Doom 1 more than DTWID does. However in order for anything like that to take off you'd probably have to get people who were involved with the original project on board because otherwise it would just look like you're copying someone else's idea.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Individualised

[Johnny Cruelty]

Just now, Individualised said:

I think that would be considered a faux pas in the community. Maybe something like DTWID but for Final Doom or Master Levels (I know Final Doom did have a TWID project but it seems to have been canned). I definitely would like to see a "DTWID take 2" though because to be honest a lot of the maps don't feel like official id levels to me and I think people these days could do a much better job now that the subtleties of id's level design are much more well known; I've played a lot more recent maps that feel like they could fit Doom 1 more than DTWID does.

DTWID is a nice job, but most of the levels feel too... tom hall-y (which is good news for me because I love his level design) but yeah I feel like every level is designed to be good, I feel the true DTWID needs to have a few dilberately shitty levels that leaves a impression on the player

[Xaser]

If folks are interested in making something of this sort for Final Doom, the best thing to do is to whip up some maps for FDTWiD-proper to get the ball rolling again. It stalled out due to lack of interest at the time, and the best cure for that is... well, interest. ;)

 

Having been involved in the other two, the reason D2TWID ended up being much more "authentic" to the original than the first DTWID is because a core team of people (not me :P) spent a massive amount of time researching and dissecting IWAD maps to really see what made 'em tick. It was a close-knit team effort, whereas the first project was a free-wheeling avalanche of loose ideas with only a tiny bit of coordination and curation right at the very end (by a few of us dorks that weren't even the original project lead :P ).

More true-authentic-TWID projects would be amazing, but don't underestimate the task -- it's not about just making "shitty" or "janky" levels, you really gotta dive in and figure out exactly what sorts of weird shenanigans Sandy and the boys could conceivably pull back in the day, then figure out how to execute those ideas without accidentally ripping off any particular IWAD map. It's much harder than it looks, trust me -- there's a reason NaturalTvventy and I went off and did our own thing with NEIS instead. :P

Also related: I'm sitting on a mostly-done "D2TWID-LE" set -- like the first project, there were some really great submissions that just didn't quite make the final cut, but there's a few gaps and I haven't tinkered with it recently for the same reason that FDTWiD is on ice: there hasn't really been a ton of interest... until just now, maybe. :P

[Johnny Cruelty]

4 minutes ago, Xaser said:

If folks are interested in making something of this sort for Final Doom, the best thing to do is to whip up some maps for FDTWiD-proper to get the ball rolling again. It stalled out due to lack of interest at the time, and the best cure for that is... well, interest. ;)

 

Having been involved in the other two, the reason D2TWID ended up being much more "authentic" to the original than the first DTWID is because a core team of people (not me :P) spent a massive amount of time researching and dissecting IWAD maps to really see what made 'em tick. It was a close-knit team effort, whereas the first project was a free-wheeling avalanche of loose ideas with only a tiny bit of coordination and curation right at the very end (by a few of us dorks that weren't even the original project lead :P ).

More true-authentic-TWID projects would be amazing, but don't underestimate the task -- it's not about just making "shitty" or "janky" levels, you really gotta dive in and figure out exactly what sorts of weird shenanigans Sandy and the boys could conceivably pull back in the day, then figure out how to execute those ideas without accidentally ripping off any particular IWAD map. It's much harder than it looks, trust me -- there's a reason NaturalTvventy and I went off and did our own thing with NEIS instead. :P

Also related: I'm sitting on a mostly-done "D2TWID-LE" set -- like the first project, there were some really great submissions that just didn't quite make the final cut, but there's a few gaps and I haven't tinkered with it recently for the same reason that FDTWiD is on ice: there hasn't really been a ton of interest... until just now, maybe. :P

also is the lost episodes for DTWID accurate in your opinion?

[BeachThunder]

42 minutes ago, Johnny Cruelty said:

DTWID is a nice job, but most of the levels feel too... tom hall-y (which is good news for me because I love his level design) but yeah I feel like every level is designed to be good, I feel the true DTWID needs to have a few dilberately shitty levels that leaves a impression on the player

 

This is basically what you should mention in the intro post of the CP - if you do decide to go through with hosting it. i.e. that the original DTWID didn't feel as authentic as you'd hoped, so you want to do something similar - but one that feels more truly authentic.

 

It also probably wouldn't hurt to name it something different...

 

Also, having recently tried making an authentic(ish) E1 map. I can definitely say that it's extremely hard to capture the right vibe without straight-up imitating the source material.

[Xaser]

6 minutes ago, Johnny Cruelty said:

also is the lost episodes for DTWID accurate in your opinion?

 

Depends on the map, and also the person playing it I guess :P -- there are a couple of maps in LE that to me are an 11 out of 10 on the nostalgia meter (E2M2: Cooling Towers and E2M3: Infirmary always come to mind), but I was usually the odd one out when it came to judging what did or didn't feel like a proper map, so who knows :P -- I'm not the best source on that front; my focus for LE was always "polish things and make 'em good, authenticity be damned", since they were already released from the shackles of the main project. :P

[Individualised]

10 minutes ago, Xaser said:

If folks are interested in making something of this sort for Final Doom, the best thing to do is to whip up some maps for FDTWiD-proper to get the ball rolling again. It stalled out due to lack of interest at the time, and the best cure for that is... well, interest. ;)

 

Having been involved in the other two, the reason D2TWID ended up being much more "authentic" to the original than the first DTWID is because a core team of people (not me :P) spent a massive amount of time researching and dissecting IWAD maps to really see what made 'em tick. It was a close-knit team effort, whereas the first project was a free-wheeling avalanche of loose ideas with only a tiny bit of coordination and curation right at the very end (by a few of us dorks that weren't even the original project lead :P ).

More true-authentic-TWID projects would be amazing, but don't underestimate the task -- it's not about just making "shitty" or "janky" levels, you really gotta dive in and figure out exactly what sorts of weird shenanigans Sandy and the boys could conceivably pull back in the day, then figure out how to execute those ideas without accidentally ripping off any particular IWAD map. It's much harder than it looks, trust me -- there's a reason NaturalTvventy and I went off and did our own thing with NEIS instead. :P

Also related: I'm sitting on a mostly-done "D2TWID-LE" set -- like the first project, there were some really great submissions that just didn't quite make the final cut, but there's a few gaps and I haven't tinkered with it recently for the same reason that FDTWiD is on ice: there hasn't really been a ton of interest... until just now, maybe. :P

I would love to see a lost levels set for D2TWID!

 

I think the main issue with D1TWID is that to me it feels like rather than having layouts that feel authentic to Doom 1, it instead takes various mechanics from the original Doom 1 levels and works with those in a more original style. There are many places in D1TWID where I think "well, I think I know what level inspired that part". The ongoing Tom's Halls community project which polishes up some of the unfinished levels from Doom 1 prototypes, as well as Romero's source data release, has quite a few levels that feel like what I imagined D1TWID would have felt like before I played it. Of course, that project has the advantage of being based on actual id layouts, but keep in mind that many of the layouts that inspire some of that project's maps were "scrap" levels that only contained a few room sketches, so that project still contains a very good portion of original level design.

 

Trying to put together an authentic map set is certainly a very daunting task and I don't think it's the type of project that can be started on a whim, so it's not something I'd suggest Johnny to start, at least not without prior communication and lots of planning with other community members and people involved with the original DTWID project.

[baja blast rd.]

Usually the new project changes something up about the approach instead of retreading it exactly, but this happens already.  

 

Going Down inspired the community projects Hellevator and Skulltiverse. Skulltiverse especially is a change-up that uses portals instead of elevators, and neither project plays like a retread of Going Down despite the similar small scale just because the authors are quite different and the themes are too. D2INO is very distilled "in name only"-ness, but there's Literalism that is "random name in name only" and projects like Solar Struggle that go beyond a name and also provide a bit of concept to work with.

[Lila Feuer]

I mean it didn't stop anyone from doing another Plutonia Revisited CP so I don't see why it would be a problem.

[kalensar]

Doom the way Doom Did it-- DTWDDI. 

Yeah, I think you are good to go.  To put this simply, John Romero remade 2 levels of Episode 1 and nobody batted an eye negatively at his remakes. There's nothing really saying you can't do it especially when it should be a whole new creation in the first place.

[Egg Boy]

22 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

I mean it didn't stop anyone from doing another Plutonia Revisited CP so I don't see why it would be a problem.

To be fair, Joshy ran both Plutonia Revisited Community Projects, it wasn’t like another person decided to use that name and do the same thing.

[Xaser]

Just a follow-up, the DTWID alumni certainly don't hold ownership over the idea or anything -- my musings are from a practical standpoint, just some "here's what worked, here's what didn't" anecdotes that may or may not help. :P

 

e'd maybe scoff a bit if someone tried to name it "DTWID 2" (not to be confused with "D2TWID 2" oh god whAT EVEN ARE NUMBERS), and maybe shake our heads in disappointment if someone tries it out and makes a mess of it, but any sort of "that's my idea I'LL KILL YOU" nonsense would be... well, nonsense. :P

[Shepardus]

Look at how many WADs have been based around the idea of a 1024x1024 size limitation:

Retreading the same ideas is fine and happens all the time, just don't rip off others' work wholesale. I would also avoid reusing the name or otherwise portraying your work as a sequel to someone else's WAD without permission, people have taken issue with that.

[Somniac]

I'm hoping someone starts a "TNTINO" or "PLUTINO", they're cool acronyms and I think they'd work quite well. 

 

Interesting to know there is a potential D2TWID-LE out there! I'm sure I'm not the only person that would jump all over that, I loved the first one.

[CravenCoyote]

I don't think any idea is a bad idea. Good to use a different name though so people don't conflate or confuse the two. And if you're inspired, give credit in your readme file. What matters is that it's fun, in my opinion.

 

I personally don't care which wads are inspired by which other wads. Sometimes it's even a good thing if one wad leaves me wanting more, and someone else has made something similar.

[Noiser]

I don't think it's a problem, tbh. The proposal can be the same, but the maps will be different. And it's always cool to see what new people can do with old ideas. As long as you don't copy the same name and give proper credits to the original idea, I think it's fair game.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Noiser

[Sonikkumania]

6 hours ago, Johnny Cruelty said:

I enjoy wads such as "Doom the way id did" or "Doom 2 in name only" or "going down" but I wonder... is it ok to make Community Porjects of them... again?

Like after playing DTWID, I wanna play a re-envisioning of it, but is it best to do it once and never do it again?

I personally think that taking influence is a good thing but .. Doing the same idea again with different people? It really depends.

It might work for 2nd time, but then again why would you reinvent the wheel all over again?

After all, imagination knows no limits. I'm also glad we don't have a flood of "myhouse.wad" or then I'm just unaware.

[Rudolph]

6 hours ago, Johnny Cruelty said:

I enjoy wads such as "Doom the way id did" or "Doom 2 in name only" or "going down" but I wonder... is it ok to make Community Projects of them... again?

"DTWID The Way I Would Have Done It"! :P

 

Besides, plenty of mapsets were made in the style of the original vanilla maps (one of my all-time favorite megawads is Jimmy's DTWID-esque Deathless), yet I do not see anyone taking issue with that.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Rudolph

[Faceman2000]

12 hours ago, Xaser said:

lso related: I'm sitting on a mostly-done "D2TWID-LE" set -- like the first project, there were some really great submissions that just didn't quite make the final cut, but there's a few gaps and I haven't tinkered with it recently for the same reason that FDTWiD is on ice: there hasn't really been a ton of interest... until just now, maybe. :P

Hold up, if it’s not in progress because of a perceived lack of interest in the community, I would like to state that I am VERY interested haha! I figured it was just on your backburner as you work on Syringe 2. ;P

 

As for staying on-topic, I’d love more DTWID-style projects, but as has been stated making a successful one is a lot more effort than most community projects.