give me scenarios where stupid dumbass barons don't completely suck

[Gifty]

E4m2 👀

[Captain D!psh¡t]

8 hours ago, TheGreenZap said:

Now that this has been dug up. I missed it originally. I just want to say I love Barons. I will say when I put them in my Doom 1 maps (the few I've done), I do get people complaining about them. But I have a soft spot for them because they are cool as hell and tanky. That is all.

 

Same

I moslty love their design and them being some sort of mini boss 

 

But i always think that the barons need a bit of spice to make em unique in more ways compared to the hellknights

[Astar]

Okay-okay, how about this: Doomguy, well-groomed and washed, comes with a bouquet of flowers to the Baron of Hell and together they go to a cafe...

[Grain of Salt]

On 11/23/2023 at 2:49 PM, roadworx said:

holy shit i forgot how forced and cringy this was, someone put me out of my misery

 

Well I don't agree with this either. I think roadworx is well balanced and a good element of gameplay (the game being foruming).

[Captain D!psh¡t]

On 5/2/2024 at 11:56 AM, Captain D!psh¡t said:

That reminds me of an BEX patch that i made which does that

But after its pain state is triggered, or when in melee range 

 

I also made the baron's walking frames last for 2 tics instead of 3, and its attacking frames lasting for 6 tics each instead of 8

 

And lastly, i made its speed value a 9 and halved its painchance

Speaking of which

I might release the BEX patch for you guys to enjoy :D

Edited May 3 by Captain D!psh¡t

[Captain D!psh¡t]

On 5/3/2024 at 1:04 PM, Captain D!psh¡t said:

Speaking of which

I might release the BEX patch for you guys to enjoy :D

Here it is :D

 

Bruiser Baron.zip

Edited May 4 by Captain D!psh¡t

[Tiramisu]

EDIT: In this poorly thought-out post I was essentially complaining about people shotgunning roaming Barons in my old maps instead of waiting for better guns, but I've since come to the conclusion that I was entirely out of line here. Placing monsters that you're "not supposed to shoot" without strict ammo control is as much of a mapping flaw as, say, having switches with unclear effects, so I'm not in any sort of position to complain here.

 

Besides, it also occurred to me that it's not really right for a mapper to publicly complain about their players' playstyles - I don't want anyone to feel self-conscious when playing my maps, so you can rest assured I won't be making a post like this ever again. Sorry!

 

(but I still think Barons should be immune to single shotguns lol :p)

 

Original post:
 

Spoiler

I used to like placing Barons as a persistent roaming threat that's initially too tanky to be worth the time investment to deal with - that is, until you get some better weapons and can return to make short work of them. But then I saw people playing those maps, and like 90% of them proceeded to single-shotgun the Barons immediately, so I no longer do that xP

 

That said, for the record I think Barons are a good monster that has its uses in combat, but I'm sure that's already been discussed back and forth in this thread.

 

EDIT: (to be clear I'm not blaming anyone here, imo it's just a case of miscommunication between mapper and player that I'm not sure can be solved without placing in a big neon sign saying "DO NOT SHOTGUN THE BARONS, YOU'LL GET TONS OF ROCKETS LATER")

 

EDIT EDIT: I just remembered that for this reason, I often thought if it would be better if Barons were immune to single shotgun/chaingun fire. Would certainly be interesting!

Edited May 9 by Tiramisu

[Plerb]

2 hours ago, Tiramisu said:

But then I saw people playing those maps, and like 90% of them proceeded to single-shotgun the Barons immediately,

Well you can be sure I wouldn't do that! I don't subscribe to the UV Max On First Try mentality so that might have something to do with it :P

[Tiramisu]

47 minutes ago, Plerb said:

Well you can be sure I wouldn't do that! I don't subscribe to the UV Max On First Try mentality so that might have something to do with it :P

 

Tbh I think this is more complicated than just the UV-max mentality - it's more a matter of conflicting playstyles and putting trust in the mapper.

 

I for example am 100% okay with the "background noise" of a roaming Baron but I know not everyone is - and therefore if such a player encounters it, they want it gone. But they also have no way of telling if the mapper isn't one of those sickos that actually forces players to shotgun Barons - so they won't take the risk of going through the map and maybe getting some potential better guns later on, they'll just shoot the Baron now and get it over with. Like I said, I don't really see a way to solve this issue through map design (which is why I think making Barons immune to single shotgun would actually be a good idea).

[Plerb]

I have to wonder how one could communicate to the player that barons are immune to single shotguns, considering they would go in expecting all guns to work on the baron (to varying degrees of course).

[Tiramisu]

6 minutes ago, Plerb said:

I have to wonder how one could communicate to the player that barons are immune to single shotguns, considering they would go in expecting all guns to work on the baron (to varying degrees of course).

 

Well for starters, like I said in the other thread shooting them would make bullet puff particles (like the ones from hitting a wall) instead of blood particles - but now that I think of it that would probably not be enough, you make a good point that it would be difficult to properly communicate this!

[Lila Feuer]

15 hours ago, Tiramisu said:

I used to like placing Barons as a persistent roaming threat that's initially too tanky to be worth the time investment to deal with - that is, until you get some better weapons and can return to make short work of them. But then I saw people playing those maps, and like 90% of them proceeded to single-shotgun the Barons immediately, so I no longer do that xP

That is such a great idea but you'd have to convey to players in a readme or something that was your intent. Or just punish them with low availability of shells and bullets better spent on things you can actually kill now and leave them dry if they try to kill a Baron early.

[kalensar]

When its too small for a cyberdemon and you want a but more heat than a Hell Knight? 

 

Probably the best versions I have played was forced boxing matches with Berserk against Barons. Its either Map30 or Map32 in the Megawad Hell In Space where I remember this being executed. Hectic map since its a forced pistol start near the very end of the megawad but the challenge was pretty fun.

[plums]

14 hours ago, Tiramisu said:

I for example am 100% okay with the "background noise" of a roaming Baron but I know not everyone is - and therefore if such a player encounters it, they want it gone. But they also have no way of telling if the mapper isn't one of those sickos that actually forces players to shotgun Barons - so they won't take the risk of going through the map and maybe getting some potential better guns later on, they'll just shoot the Baron now and get it over with. Like I said, I don't really see a way to solve this issue through map design (which is why I think making Barons immune to single shotgun would actually be a good idea).

A way to do this might be, instead of using one baron, to use 5 or 6 of them, with a level layout that makes just leaving them all no more dangerous than just leaving one.

 

This reminds me of an old level by King REoL that is full of barons, 80 or so in a Doom 1 map (so no SSG). He goes about it completely the wrong way, and gives you tons of ammo so that you actually *can* kill off most of them with the SG and CG, if you don't die of boredom first; not only that but a lot of high-power weapons/ammo are hidden behind completely untelegraphed secrets, *and* there are a few barons where it is in your best interest to plink them to death with the shotgun. All that said it's not a bad map if you go into it with the knowledge of how to play it in a fun way, though; consider using IDDT if you try it out. (Or play in a port where you can give yourself the SSG in Doom 1 with cheats, and do so.)

[Tiramisu]

@Lila Feuer Yeah, I kind of figured out that low-ammo thing by myself at some point. It does make balancing for the actual fights more troublesome, but it does its job especially for a map's early-game.

 

@plums I ran around in that map for a few minutes with IDDQD, and yeah - that's pretty much the kind of Baron not-shooting action I was talking about! I agree that the execution could've been a lot better though, the creator runs into a lot of mistakes such as:

 

- obviously like you said there cannot be too much ammo and there's got to be a RL/plasma/BFG at some point,

- there shouldn't be places where you can get easily boxed in by the barons with no way out, or dead ends that do not clearly scream "DEAD END" at first glance

- you should ideally still be able to move around without waiting for Barons to go somewhere first, f.eg. leave a narrow hallway that leads to another area, or slowly clear out a room that's completely full of them.

[LegendaryEevee]

Ancient Aliens map 07 dare to fly Where Eagles soar.  The baron trap in this map is brutal and took a few times to get past tight space multiple barons little ammo the arachnotrons make it doable but took two attempts to get past

["JL" was too short]

To the "make the player run past the baron and come back for it later" scenario: Just put the Baron someplace where it's obvious it can't roam, like guarding a raised platform (that the player will eventually need to or at least benefit from accessing).  That lets the player know they can explore the rest of the map without needing to worry about having the baron at their back.

[Clippy]

Has nobody played baron door

[Stroopwafel]

On 5/7/2024 at 11:55 PM, Clippy said:

Has nobody played baron door

No I don't like doors

[Toxisploder]

Uhhh...any Doom level with barons?

I mean, even if the encounter itself makes you bang your head on keyboard, at least you get to observe these magnificent creatures in action before they turn you into yet another serving of human BBQ!

P.S. I bet OP would loathe my very first Doom level. Not necessarily because of it's n00biness.

[Captain D!psh¡t]

On 5/4/2024 at 2:37 PM, Captain D!psh¡t said:

Here it is :D

 

Bruiser Baron.zip

Hmm,i might boost his speed to be the same as the pinky and revenant 

[GreenAnime]

they should've been firing faster than the hell knight.

[WASFDDDDD]

The way I see it, you're thinking about them all wrong. Let's get one thing clear: Despite their similarities in design and behavior, barons in practice have almost nothing in common with hell knights. As a mapmaker, one hell knight is a condensed group of imps. That's it, they're just elite grunts that are best used when you want more enemies, but don't want to massively impact the flow of combat with a massive horde of lesser demons

 

 

In contrast, barons are slow, lumbering, yet very dangerous threats that must be prioritized properly, else they'll wreck your shit, whether that be through distracting you from more immediately dangerous targets, or with their bare hands. They're so tanky that they effectively become the immovable object to Doomguy's unstoppable force. A small group of them is a brick wall that takes a lot of ammo and a healthy amount of tenacity to break. All this produces an enemy that is very good at directing the player; whether that be through blocking off hallways, forcing the player down a certain path in the arena, or even just marking certain areas you want the player to stay away from. Also, they can double as tough minibosses in close quarters, for when a hell knight would be too flimsy to put up all that much of a fight. Very versatile indeed!

 

 

The reason barons get such a bad rap sometimes is because they look so similar to hell knights that they often get treated the same way, which leads to boring, unsatisfying fights that take way too long to get anywhere. In reality barons are just like any other enemy. Tons of fun when done well, but very frustrating when handled poorly

[baja blast rd.]

A lot of them. Barons can be good enemies. 

 

Was playing Mayhem 2016 map02 recently and this is one of my favorite uses of a baron. 

 

At the blue key, there's a baron ominously standing guard over it, which first off is a cool-looking setup. You drop down, and the main threat reveals itself to be not the barons, but two archviles meatwalled by a few spectres. (The spectres being partially invisible lets you see the archies more easily, so this is also a good example of one reason you might use spectres instead of regular pinkies beyond simply making them harder to see.)

 

 

What the baron does is bully you around while you're trying to desperately take out the viles. While you're lobbing rockets at them, the baron is always either on your side somewhere out of view, forcing you to account for it and move around while trying to doing something that is very urgent -- or it's in your way and you have to try to aim your rockets around it. 

 

Some baron setups might run into the criticism "but two HKs would be more effective." But this fight makes a great illustration of another concept -- which is that Doom setups are not necessarily trying to maximize the "effectiveness" of threats in an abstract "make threat level go up" way. They are trying to create a dynamic that has character to it and is fun. The exact dynamic of one baron in this fight is that the baron pushes you around but you can keep slipping around it to focus on the archies. If there were two HKs instead, they would be far more overbearing about getting in your way, and you would start to be more inclined to simply kill one or both first. (With the rocket launcher, you can take out two HKs with four rockets compared to the barons' five -- so you would have an even bigger incentive.) That would turn the fight into something with a lot less individual character to it. It would still be a fun encounter, but it would be a much more common "try to kill everything quickly" race.

 

Another neat thing about this setup is that the baron can be potshotted from below...once. Then it'll wander down to the ledge below you and become a real nuisance. And that is telegraphed from the area's architecture. This is cool because it's rare that a lock-in setup can get away with freely letting you attack an important enemy without entering first. 

 

Also I did try out this setup while trying to take out the baron first and that becomes much more dangerous, because the spectres and viles get to spill out of their chokepoint. It also eats up a lot more rockets. Not to mention usually requiring a vile dodge without looking at where there vile is.

 

 

[Catpho]

Ignore the memers, play DyingCamel's Demons #3 MAP31.

[Lila Feuer]

@baja blast rd. Barons usually take six rockets in my experience, because RNGesus hates me.

[Captain D!psh¡t]

On 5/29/2024 at 4:13 PM, Captain D!psh¡t said:

Hmm,i might boost his speed to be the same as the pinky and revenant 

Update: did it

And oh boi is the baron threatening now