A question about doom 64 ex

[OnionTaco22]

Is it possible to use the wad from the Doom 64 rerelease for doom 64? I tried doing it though it gave me an error saying this:

 

 

Knowing me, it might be something I'm doing wrong but I would like to know if I need something else.

[Edward850]

The Doom64 IWAD from the 2020 release is not natively compatible with EX, nor is the soundfont used for music and sounds.

[OnionTaco22]

Oh alright. Though would it be worth trying to use Doom 64 ex or just stick with the rerelease?

[Shepardus]

Have you tried Doom 64 EX+?

[OnionTaco22]

1 hour ago, Shepardus said:

Have you tried Doom 64 EX+?

No because I honestly didn't know it existed. Though I will give it a go.

[Xaser]

The rerelease is essentially an improved, more feature-complete version of Doom64 EX, not the other way around like how PC Doom sourceports tend to work. Nowadays you typically only want to reach for ye olde EX if there's no other option (e.g. trying to run an old mod/map or somesuch).

[Individualised]

As Xaser said there's pretty much no reason to use Doom 64 EX as the remaster outclasses it in almost every way. If the remaster has issues running on your machine though, or if you want to use a source port with advanced features, you can also check out DOOM CE which essentially allows PSX Doom and Doom 64 to run on GZDoom with a high level of customisability.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Individualised

[irukanjji]

On 12/8/2023 at 9:16 AM, OnionTaco22 said:

Is it possible to use the wad from the Doom 64 rerelease for doom 64? I tried doing it though it gave me an error saying this:

 

 

Knowing me, it might be something I'm doing wrong but I would like to know if I need something else.

Try this

Doom64-BethesdaToEX

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1148590/discussions/0/1870623253804069634/

[Trov]

On 12/9/2023 at 2:27 AM, Xaser said:

The rerelease is essentially an improved, more feature-complete version of Doom64 EX, not the other way around like how PC Doom sourceports tend to work. Nowadays you typically only want to reach for ye olde EX if there's no other option (e.g. trying to run an old mod/map or somesuch).

On 12/9/2023 at 2:53 AM, Individualised said:

As Xaser said there's pretty much no reason to use Doom 64 EX as the remaster outclasses it in almost every way. If the remaster has issues running on your machine though, or if you want to use a source port with advanced features, you can also check out DOOM CE which essentially allows PSX Doom and Doom 64 to run on GZDoom with a high level of customisability.

There is one good reason to use EX/EX+ over the Nightdive version: 144hz support that doesnt jitter constantly.
Newer games on Kex dont seem to have this issue (Quake 2 is one - Quake 1 is not), but I doubt Nightdive Doom 64 will be updated for it.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Trov

[Edward850]

I developed Doom64 on a 155Hz monitor and didn't jet any noticeable judder, otherwise I'd have reported that to Kaiser. Additionally while I'm familiar with the reports of it in Quake1, I have not seen anything in-depth for Doom64. We are familiar with a performance judder that occurred in a particular patch, but this was fixed in a subsequent build soon after.

 

Also one game having a problem that another one doesn't isn't really a back-portable concept. Kex doesn't work like that.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Edward850

[Trov]

On 12/10/2023 at 6:53 PM, Edward850 said:

I have not seen anything in-depth for Doom64. We are familiar with a performance judder that occurred in a particular patch, but this was fixed in a subsequent build soon after.

Here is in-depth demonstration and analysis for you, then.

Here's some recordings from OBS. I recommend playing them back at 25% speed (VLC can do this) to get the best look at what's going on.

In general, it seems the issue gets worse the further you are from a multiple of 30 Hz.

With that in mind, I have recordings with monitor/game set to: 120Hz, 144Hz, and 75Hz.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ngov3c0azkob13f3f8nqn/doom64_hz_recordings.zip?rlkey=4t1cyh5f7lsrnd5ot4v3l7nsw&dl=0

 

Conditions:

-Totally fresh default config (deleted kexengine.cfg), except for enabling framerate display, and changing the refresh rate in video options for desired test hz, and lowering the mouse sensitivity a lot

-Game version: Kex Engine 3.8 (osiris) DOOM 64 4.2.2 (by console) DOOM 64- Version Date: Jun 10 2022 (by window title). The latest on Steam.

 

Results:

-120Hz - looks totally fine. No judder.

-144Hz - A jump in player movement every 10 frames or so.

-75Hz - This one has it particularly bad, being evenly sandwiched between 60 and 90 Hz. Even at 1x playback it looks very jagged.

 

The judder is not an artifact of recording, as it looks the same without OBS running.

 

Other observations:

The judder is made made most apparent by the combination of player movement (forward strafing, etc) and mouse turning. If I play with a gamepad, the game seems smooth at all three Hz.

 

Additionally, this isn't something specific to my setup, as the same judder is present on Steam Deck OLED at 75hz when using gyro aim (as mouse) and moving.

 

It could be that 155Hz is almost close enough to 150 (a multiple of 30) that the judder is much less frequent; or being just over a multiple of 30 ends up looking better than being just under. If you disagree that 155Hz has any judder for you, I would be interested in seeing a 155FPS video from your own setup, where the player is moving while turning with the mouse to stay facing a point of interest.

 

Here's another video of 75Hz where the player is doing nothing but strafing.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/s9oiev61pq8pvoqtojk51/doom64_strafe_only.zip?rlkey=z6sheuy37kyt12x9hi5pnit1s&dl=0

 

At 1x speed it looks ok. However, If you go frame by frame in VLC ('e' key) at a constant rate, you will notice that every 5 frames, the player's speed seems to slow down almost to a stop and then speeds up again.

 

Conclusion:

No mouse turning is involved in the second strafe only test, so mouse is ruled out as the source of judder. Mouse movement merely highlights the real problem:

 

The frames themselves are not timed unevenly, it is the object positions within that are (such as the player.)

 

The interpolation is not spacing out the player/object positional movements between the 'faked' interpolation frames linearly (the unevenness

is an almost sinusoidal repeating pattern), at least when the framerate is not a multiple of 30, and when that combines with the correctly spaced mouse movement, the contrast of movement between the two makes the positional judder very apparent.

 

On gamepad this effect is masked because the turning via gamepad is also unevenly spaced out in the same way, but matching the uneven lateral movement.

 

Overall, this seems to be identical to what Quake 1 is doing (I'm the one who posted those frame by frame videos in discord a few weeks ago).

 

Without the source code I can only guess as to what's going on. Whether there's some kind of accumulating rounding error happening in the positional interpolation, or the interpolation is intentionally (yet wrongfully) applying some kind of curve to the movement of objects across some interval of interpolated frames, I cannot say.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Trov