SIGIL II - Episode 6

[act]

2 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Oh, sorry. I thought you were still talking about Wolfenstein 3D.

 

Mondays... -_-

Trust me man, insomnia's got me by the nads and I'm sitting here with 3 hours of sleep.

[yakfak]

things I love about Sigil 2:

 

- every level having that fireblue secret and a roaming cybie, it's fun to have an activities checklist like that

- barons in tight corridors that you have to back out of in a hurry

- the set pieciness that avoids turning every map segment into an arena

- the absolute texture chaos

- the joy of throwing random moving parts around like up down floors and crushers, avoids being too static

- the jim flynn-style ledge secrets you end up crossing more than once, lol. map 2 is basically an ENIGMA level

- its general air of cruelty (the gibbering fiend decision of giving the mastermind MORE health)

- the jimmy midis!!!

 

I could say that some of the levels just END though... you inevitably traverse the landmarky parts of each map thinking "this'd be a good ending" but the conclusion is always actually in a random sub basement. some of the eye secrets were a bit repetitive but I appreciate the commitment to the gimmick

[LadyMistDragon]

5 hours ago, yakfak said:

things I love about Sigil 2:

 

- every level having that fireblue secret and a roaming cybie, it's fun to have an activities checklist like that

- barons in tight corridors that you have to back out of in a hurry

- the set pieciness that avoids turning every map segment into an arena

- the absolute texture chaos

- the joy of throwing random moving parts around like up down floors and crushers, avoids being too static

- the jim flynn-style ledge secrets you end up crossing more than once, lol. map 2 is basically an ENIGMA level

- its general air of cruelty (the gibbering fiend decision of giving the mastermind MORE health)

- the jimmy midis!!!

 

I could say that some of the levels just END though... you inevitably traverse the landmarky parts of each map thinking "this'd be a good ending" but the conclusion is always actually in a random sub basement. some of the eye secrets were a bit repetitive but I appreciate the commitment to the gimmick

Exactly!! I quite admire Jim Flynn and that's all the reasons I've been entirely unable to call any map in Sigil II boring, unless you hate Doom I gameplay anyways, which is a separate issue.

[RHhe82]

(Shouldn't this thread be in WAD Discussion subforum?)

 

Anyway, just wanted to join the choir and say, what's already been said, I think.

 

I really liked the visual style, and I *loved* the midi soundtrack. But I did have bad time at the start. I think Sigil 2 is riddled with questionable design choices, which are most evident in the first two maps. Especially in E6M2 the cyber is obnoxious all the while map itself is mediocre. E6M1 gets a pass, because the layout is great. From E6M3 onwards things get better, and things definitely got better as soon as I decided to play on HMP first to locate all the tight spots and all the secrets. After that UV playthroughs were fun. I suppose secrets aren't mandatory, but for me they made the difference between difficult and tedious. Between enjoying my stay and suffering miserably from ammo starvation.

 

Some other deisgn choices I didn't approve: in E6M7 for instance there was a section with multiple perpetually lowering and raising platforms. After going through it a couple of times in my UV playthrough, I just idclipped through it.

 

I think Ultimate Doom wads can be both fun and difficult, but Sigil 2 leans too much on tedium. I guess too many barons and cybers in respect to resources. E6M6 was my favourite map.

 

I didn't realize SMM had buffed up HP! I was just surprised at how little damage cybies managed to inflict on it :-D

[Bedingungsl.Grundeinkommen]

Is there any launcher that supports SIGIL II so I can play any desired map on a certain difficulty? I tried Doom Explorer but it didn't work and the idclev cheat didn't work either (assuming I did everything the right way in both cases).

 

Just asking because I want to pistol start through each map on HMP first in order to figure out a strategy for UV max.

[mmiov]

14 minutes ago, Bedingungsl.Grundeinkommen said:

Is there any launcher that supports SIGIL II so I can play any desired map on a certain difficulty? I tried Doom Explorer but it didn't work and the idclev cheat didn't work either (assuming I did everything the right way in both cases).

 

Just asking because I want to pistol start through each map on HMP first in order to figure out a strategy for UV max.

You can try ZDL or Doom Launcher if you're feeling fancy, I myself use Doom Explorer with the latest build of GZDoom and it works just fine.

[Bedingungsl.Grundeinkommen]

13 hours ago, mmiov said:

You can try ZDL or Doom Launcher if you're feeling fancy, I myself use Doom Explorer with the latest build of GZDoom and it works just fine.

Yeah same here, latest GZ + latest Doom Explorer but it only shows the first four episodes. Please click on this link to see a screenshot: https://ibb.co/McxgVGh

[Xeogred]

16 hours ago, Bedingungsl.Grundeinkommen said:

Is there any launcher that supports SIGIL II so I can play any desired map on a certain difficulty? I tried Doom Explorer but it didn't work and the idclev cheat didn't work either (assuming I did everything the right way in both cases).

 

Just asking because I want to pistol start through each map on HMP first in order to figure out a strategy for UV max.

idclev is for Doom 2

 

Try this in the console: "Map E6M1" etc

 

Never thought about this with difficulty though. I'm guessing if you just pick a random episode on HMP, then use Map it'll carry over HMP...

 

This is all for GZDoom at least.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Xeogred

[dististik]

27 minutes ago, Xeogred said:

idclev is for Doom 2

 

IDCLEV works for both IWADs, in Ultimate Doom/Doom 1 the number order is episode then map instead of the two digit map number (for example you'd type "IDCLEV28" for E2M8).

 

I haven't tried yet personally since my port of choice supports internally enforcing pistol starts, but from what I recall UMAPINFO implementations should let you do IDCLEV61 for Sigil II's first map and so on. 

[Bedingungsl.Grundeinkommen]

3 hours ago, dististik said:

 

IDCLEV works for both IWADs, in Ultimate Doom/Doom 1 the number order is episode then map instead of the two digit map number (for example you'd type "IDCLEV28" for E2M8).

 

I haven't tried yet personally since my port of choice supports internally enforcing pistol starts, but from what I recall UMAPINFO implementations should let you do IDCLEV61 for Sigil II's first map and so on. 

I understand that SIGIL II is supposed to be the sixth episode. But is there anything like an updated IWAD of Ultimate Doom that contains SIGIL or even SIGIL II? Cause when I play SIGIL or SIGIL II, each episode is technically being treated as the fifth episode. I thought it was the same for everyone else. Not trying to be smart here, just curious whether it's just me where it's like I said.

Also, just to be clear: IDCLEV may work in the game, but as you can see in the screenshot above the launcher only shows four episodes. No fifth or sixth. So thank you for clarifying things regarding IDCLEV as this is good to know. But I'd still prefer to use a launcher, so I hope mmiov will reply soon.

 

As I own Doom on Steam, I just checked the crappy Bethesda version but although they added Sigil 1 & 2 to their "free add ons", their IWAD does not feature an implemented fifth or sixth episode (with Sigil 1 & 2) either. 

So as I said, if I play Sigil 1, GZDoom has always shown it as the fifth episode. If I play Sigil 2, GZDoom has always shown it as the fifth episode, too. But Doom Explorer only recognizes the original four episodes when adding Sigil 1 or 2: https://ibb.co/McxgVGh

 

Edit: Solved the issue by using ZDL. I just don't like how the difficulties were renamed ("medium", "hard", etc.).

Edited December 23, 2023 by Bedingungsl.Grundeinkommen
problem solved

[stevegohome]

5 hours ago, Bedingungsl.Grundeinkommen said:

I understand that SIGIL II is supposed to be the sixth episode. But is there anything like an updated IWAD of Ultimate Doom that contains SIGIL or even SIGIL II? Cause when I play SIGIL or SIGIL II, each episode is technically being treated as the fifth episode. I thought it was the same for everyone else. Not trying to be smart here, just curious whether it's just me where it's like I said.

Also, just to be clear: IDCLEV may work in the game, but as you can see in the screenshot above the launcher only shows four episodes. No fifth or sixth. So thank you for clarifying things regarding IDCLEV as this is good to know. But I'd still prefer to use a launcher, so I hope mmiov will reply soon.

 

As I own Doom on Steam, I just checked the crappy Bethesda version but although they added Sigil 1 & 2 to their "free add ons", their IWAD does not feature an implemented fifth or sixth episode (with Sigil 1 & 2) either. 

So as I said, if I play Sigil 1, GZDoom has always shown it as the fifth episode. If I play Sigil 2, GZDoom has always shown it as the fifth episode, too. But Doom Explorer only recognizes the original four episodes when adding Sigil 1 or 2: https://ibb.co/McxgVGh

 

Edit: Solved the issue by using ZDL. I just don't like how the difficulties were renamed ("medium", "hard", etc.).

There is WadSmoosh that currently supports the first 5 episodes of doom 1, doom 2, no rest for the living, both final doom wads and the master levels and even the xbox levels. While the dev hasn't officially added Sigil 2 support yet there is a fork you can use that adds it you just have to install python to do it. You can get WadSmoosh here: https://jp.itch.io/wadsmoosh

Edited December 23, 2023 by stevegohome

[Xeogred]

17 hours ago, dististik said:

 

IDCLEV works for both IWADs, in Ultimate Doom/Doom 1 the number order is episode then map instead of the two digit map number (for example you'd type "IDCLEV28" for E2M8).

 

I haven't tried yet personally since my port of choice supports internally enforcing pistol starts, but from what I recall UMAPINFO implementations should let you do IDCLEV61 for Sigil II's first map and so on. 

Good to know!

 

Curious what port do you use then? I haven't dug too much into the newest GZDoom yet but I'm guessing it still doesn't have some kind of simple pistol start option. So I'm always using the console to manually restart a map if I'm doing PS runs. Which has been more and more common, guess it finally clicked with me in recent years and now I'm extra picky when a map doesn't seem to be balanced for it... lol

[bjh13]

Keep in mind if you "smoosh" Sigil II into Ultimate Doom or Sigil I that it makes changes to the Spider Mastermind.

[dististik]

1 hour ago, Xeogred said:

Curious what port do you use then?

 

I use Woof! which has an option in it's settings to pistol start maps but DSDA-Doom also supports the -pistolstart command line argument which has the same effect. For GZDoom I recall seeing a mod floating around that both gave you a live level stat count over the classic HUD for kills, items, and secrets as well as making you pistol start, but if my memory is betraying me and it only does the former I'm 100% certain there's a mod out there that just resets your inventory every map.

Edited December 24, 2023 by dististik

[Bedingungsl.Grundeinkommen]

8 hours ago, Xeogred said:

Good to know!

 

Curious what port do you use then? I haven't dug too much into the newest GZDoom yet but I'm guessing it still doesn't have some kind of simple pistol start option. So I'm always using the console to manually restart a map if I'm doing PS runs. Which has been more and more common, guess it finally clicked with me in recent years and now I'm extra picky when a map doesn't seem to be balanced for it... lol

 

I use ZDL + GZDoom for PS, works well for me.

[AnotherGrunt]

On 12/16/2023 at 10:16 AM, dgondos said:

In case someone else is planning to play this on DOS, I hacked in support for it in Sakitoshi's MBF fork: https://github.com/Sakitoshi/mbf_sigil/pull/1 :)

 

It seems to work, but have not yet had much time to test it out.

 

Thank you very much.

 

This time, I've decided to buy WAD right away. As I'm not expecting "another Daikatana". Play-tested first level and it seems to work pretty fine. Only bug I've noticed is weird tiled Skybox.

 

Only disappointment is, maps are even less optimized for DOS than last time. My usual setting of custom prepared DOSBox and fixed 26800 cycles and 486 CPU won't cut it. Is pure slideshow.

Are there recommended settings to play this WAD? At what CPU speed (cpu cycles) are you playing? I don't need full 35fps experience, on the other side <10fps slide-by-slide isn't much amusing either. Or should I try to optimize BSP tree before playing?

 

Anyway, Merry Christmas everyone.

[Eurisko]

Had a chance to play and finish SIGIL II and It’s ok. Not a patch on the first one. 
The cyberdemon became a gimmick after a while rather than a threat. 
I still love the aesthetic though.

I hope Romero does that Doom II megawad next. No more SIGIL. 
Besides…. How many  times can Doom Guy be realistically cock blocked from going back to earth. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Eurisko

[Bedingungsl.Grundeinkommen]

1 hour ago, AnotherGrunt said:

 

Thank you very much.

 

This time, I've decided to buy WAD right away. As I'm not expecting "another Daikatana". Play-tested first level and it seems to work pretty fine. Only bug I've noticed is weird tiled Skybox.

 

Only disappointment is, maps are even less optimized for DOS than last time. My usual setting of custom prepared DOSBox and fixed 26800 cycles and 486 CPU won't cut it. Is pure slideshow.

Are there recommended settings to play this WAD? At what CPU speed (cpu cycles) are you playing? I don't need full 35fps experience, on the other side <10fps slide-by-slide isn't much amusing either. Or should I try to optimize BSP tree before playing?

 

Anyway, Merry Christmas everyone.

it was pretty much made for GZDoom (or modern source ports in general) if that helps or answers your question in any way

[AnotherGrunt]

@Bedingungsl.Grundeinkommen : Although with old legacy ports in mind I believe. So far, there is not one thing blocking progress in old ports. Just out of curiosity, I've tested Sigil2 in GZDooom along Torr's soundtrack. Do not take me wrong, I don't want to sound ungrateful or anything (is good soundtrack), but my opinion is it doesn't fit. Midi soundtrack is just good and much better fitting. MP3 soundtrack should have been used for Quake or something. 

 

Next thing is something stronger in arsenal. At the beginning of E6M3 Super shotgun (or similarly powerful weapon) would be just handy. In MBF is possible to use -ssg switch and SSG.WAD. But to acquire SSG, one must cheat.

 

And last question is if anyone knows what are original sky-boxes used in SIGIL2. I would love to fit in and maybe dither a little. Would be nice touch for DOS.

[ludicrous_peridot]

Can't be very helpful here I am afraid as I play in non-emulated DOS on a 2.8GHz CPU, and the performance is expectedly fine. I also only played through the first level and started exploring the second, but don't feel that I am up to playing it further UV, as everything takes too many save and load attempts. Also MIDI soundtrack sound very nice indeed, but I am tempted to give the Thor version a go eventually, to hear the difference for myself.

 

For the sky I would suggest seeing if patching the source port further to use SKY6_ZD (and SKY5_ZD for Sigil 1) would make it any better as these are regular Doom skyboxes, unlike the default ones which are sky-dome mapped.

[AnotherGrunt]

So, pretty much done (just missing level and half and minus secret level). First take in DOS and took me an afternoon and something. First opinion on the game-play:

• Sigil2 seems a little fuzzy to me. I personally think SIGIL 1 was better. Maybe it just theme as I was never fan of Inferno episode in original Doom campaign.
• Although maps e6m4+e6m5 just perfect. It should have been done in a different order. Romero's take for UAC installations on Deimos would certainly be interesting.
• But yeah, nice small WAD for casual player.
• Just don't start on Ultra Violence. I've felt ammo and health dry even on HMP skill.And use "Save game" button often. As you find secrets, it is much more tolerant.

And now technical standpoint: Of course WAD/BSP isn't optimized for software renderer. Why even bother these days? Full of slime trails, poor performance. But just take it through Zennode and problem solved. It took 12 seconds for all maps to process on my crapy laptop. Another thing is same thing as in Sigil1. Every map is single-player map + DM arena. As I'm not interested in multiplayer, optimization is very simple. Doom builder, little trimming here and there:

 

here is bspinfo:

BSPInfo Version 1.3 (c) 1995-2004 Marc Rousseau

Analyzing: out.wad

          Max   Avg
         Depth Depth   FOM   Balance    Splits       Diagonals  Nodes  Segs
    E6M1:  37  20.2   0.557   0.569   941 - 18.9%  2019 - 81.6%  2474  5928
    E6M2:  36  20.2   0.501   0.049   511 - 19.4%   911 - 74.9%  1217  3141
    E6M3:  46  20.3   0.529   0.137   785 - 22.9%  1433 - 80.7%  1776  4217
    E6M4:  36  20.7   0.555   0.006  1136 - 19.5%  2496 - 86.3%  2893  6964
    E6M5:  38  18.5   0.628   0.060  1198 - 16.1%  2031 - 64.7%  3140  8652
    E6M6:  38  17.9   0.648   0.764   985 - 15.4%  2267 - 74.3%  3050  7397
    E6M7:  36  19.3   0.604   0.081  1155 - 14.9%  1857 - 57.8%  3215  8890
    E6M8:  45  20.1   0.567   0.242   999 - 19.4%  2256 - 85.6%  2635  6159
    E6M9:  35  18.8   0.559   0.557   378 - 10.1%   897 - 59.4%  1510  4128	

BSP tree isn't so complex as I first thought. Yep, little more than Doom2 campaign but not by far leap. And I guess there is still lot of place for optimization. To sum it up, 26800 cycles (aka i80486-DX2/4 equivalent) in DOSBox is just enough for little stroll without monsters (-nomonster switch). Anything little more must be "sweet spot". Let's say Pentium equivalent. Won't reach full 35fps frame-rate but I guess it should be playable.

 

And nice idea with FIREBLU cracks as secret triggers for secret caves. A novel idea. In OpenGL and 4K resolution it must be hard to find. Unfortunately not so much in VGA resolution:

 

It bleeds out of picture (sometimes literally as FIREBLU is slime-trailing in entire column). Low-detail mode is best helper. Such a shame as low-det mode isn't dynamically implemented in MBF204. ;-)

Edited December 27, 2023 by AnotherGrunt
typo

[Rudolph]

Has Romero said if he has plans for more mapsets after Hellion? Like SIGIL 64 or "SIGIL 3D" for Quake?

[mattjoes]

He recently said Hellion will be followed by a Quake episode.

[LadyMistDragon]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

Has Romero said if he has plans for more mapsets after Hellion? Like SIGIL 64 or "SIGIL 3D" for Quake?

Sigil 64! *cues Mario 64 cap music*

[Xeogred]

That's surprising. The new MachineGames made episode for Quake was really good. I'd be curious about more Romero made levels.

 

I'm pumped for Hellion but realistically we're probably looking at years before it's released. Took him four years in between Sigil 1 and 2. Which is fine and I think he does this in his spare time for fun. But dang, Romero didn't do a ton of maps for Doom 2 and now a full megawad worth, it'll probably push him creatively again in a fun way.

[mattjoes]

I wanted to give you people the exact quotes from Romero regarding Hellion and Quake.

From PC Gamer UK, issue 391 (January 2024), page 43:

 

Quote

Now you’ve finished SIGIL II, which is Doom’s sixth episode, are you going to do a full episode for Doom II?

I basically am starting on that immediately, because next year is Doom II’s 30th. And I didn’t do anything for Doom II except for the ‘One Humanity’ level that I released on 2 March, 2022. That level is the first Doom II level I’ve made since 1994. So it’s been a long time, and people are really excited to see what happens, and what I’m going to do. And that ‘One Humanity’ level has an Arch-Vile trap, and all kinds of stuff that you see in Doom II. So I’m basically streaming my level design all the time. When I start working on the next one, it’s all Doom II, and I’ll be streaming it. And I’ve got a lot of levels to make, so I’ve got to get through them!

 

He doesn't outright say it, but it sounds like perhaps he wants to get Hellion out by next year. That's a hell(ion) of a lot of levels to make though.

 

 

From this interview featured on Bethesda's Slayers Club:

 

Quote

SC: Is SIGIL II the conclusion to the storyline between DOOM (1993) and DOOM II...or might you be tempted to fire up the map editor again when DOOM nears another anniversary milestone?

 

JR: Yes, SIGIL II is the conclusion to the storyline just before DOOM II. I have already started on the next map pack for DOOM II and it’s named HELLION. After HELLION is going to be a Quake episode, so I don’t know if I’ll revisit DOOM (1993) again.

 

[Rudolph]

10 hours ago, LadyMistDragon said:

Sigil 64! *cues Mario 64 cap music*

It would have been a good opportunity to get Aubrey Hodges composing some more tracks for Doom 64!

[Cutman 999]

Finally finished this thing on uv. Was fun in some parts, but i didn't like it as much as sigil 1. The aesthetics are crazy good thou, favorite map from the set is between e6m4 and e6m5.

[Xeogred]

@mattjoes thanks for the quotes. That's freaking cool to hear he'll be grinding on Hellion asap.

[AnotherGrunt]

I've tested DJDoom in DOS and my truncated version. Of course R_FindPlane: no more visplanes as WAD isn't optimized for vanilla DOOM. Although as I raised MAXVISPLANES to 256 planes, believe it or not, no problem playing up to map e6m4. Then it crashed. Unrelated to renderer though. I have very strong suspicion WAD was designed with budget around 256 planes in mind. Is there some systematical way how to check all maps for visplane and SEGs limit? I mean other than just play and wait for crash.