[New deadline!] How much health? A CP where monsters have a limited total health count

[Astro X]

Hey, guys!

 

Discord server: https://discord.com/invite/tzdVENfumq

 

After the very positive feedback we had in the other post, I feel like it's just fair to announce this in the current time and let things flow naturally.

 

This is   the sequel to 'What is Health?' CP that took place earlier this year and was able to gather fantastic mappers to build 17 levels in under one month period.

 

Last time we limited you to 1% health, but this time it's your revenge and the demons are now limited! The central idea is to limit the amount of health the enemies you face are gonna have to work with to beat you.

 

Here are the guidelines this time around:

 

• doom2.wad;
• MBF21, targeting DSDA-Doom (cl-21), no custom enemies/weapons;
• Player start; co-op starts;
• Reachable exit;
• All kills and secrets must be obtainable;
• Beatable pistol-start;
• Implement difficulties, otherwise I'll do that for you;
• All difficulties have the same monsters; the difference is the amount of health and powerups the player is given;
• Highly recommended that you can beat your own level pistol-start without saves;
• Place a computer area map item in your map (if you forget to do so, I can do it for you, I guess);
• The monsters in each level must match the total amount of health they are given;
• Custom texture pack: 32in24-15_tex_v2
• Custom skies: you are free to add one, as long as it's compatible with the wad;
• Deadline: June 28th 2024 - release July 1st 2024;
• You can choose pre-existing midis for your maps, or compose something you'd like for the project as well. You can help with art too;
• Up to 03 maps per player. Mappers of all levels of experience are welcome!

 

For now, you can choose any map slot. We won't be specific as to what you are allowed to do with the health amount you end up picking up. The only restriction is that you have to place monsters that add up to that specific amount that your slot is supposed to have. Lost souls placed single-handedly count towards the health count (they are gonna have 50HP, we are using dehacked for that). Commander Keens don't count. And don't use the SS soldiers, please.

 

For reference, here's the list of monsters and their corresponding health amounts:

 

Spoiler

Zombieman 20HP

Shotgunner 30HP

Lost Soul* 50HP

Imp 60HP

Chaingunner 70HP

Demon/Spectre 150HP

Revenant 300HP

Cacodemon/Pain Elemental 400HP

Hell Knight 500HP

Arachnotron 500HP

Mancubus 600HP

Archvile 700HP

Baron of Hell 1000HP

Spiderdemon 3000HP

Cyberdemon 4000HP

 

MAP SLOTS: (we won't be restricted to the 32-map wad configuration, this list is just for organization)

 

Spoiler

SLOT 01: 4000HP

SLOT 02: 5000HP

SLOT 03: 6000HP

SLOT 04: 7000HP

SLOT 05: 8000HP

SLOT 06: 10000HP

SLOT 07: 12000HP

SLOT 08: 14000HP

SLOT 09: 16000HP

SLOT 10: 18000HP

SLOT 11: 20000HP

SLOT 12: 22000HP

SLOT 13: 24000HP

SLOT 14: 26000HP

SLOT 15: 28000HP

SLOT 16: 33000HP

SLOT 17: 35000HP

SLOT 18: 38000HP

SLOT 19: 40000HP

SLOT 20: 42000HP

SLOT 21: 44000HP

SLOT 22: 45000HP

SLOT 23: 48000HP

SLOT 24: 50000HP

SLOT 25: 52000HP 57200HP

SLOT 26: 55000HP 66000HP

SLOT 27: 58000HP 75400HP

SLOT 28: 60000HP 84000HP

SLOT 29: 62000HP 93000HP

SLOT 30: 65000HP 104000HP

SLOT 31: 30000HP

SLOT 32: 32000HP

 

 

 

SLOT 01: @Heretic926

SLOT 02: @Azafran

SLOT 03: 'Spider's den' by @Kusogenes

SLOT 04: 'Gaze unbroken' by @Novaseer

SLOT 05: @scientifikgenius

SLOT 06: 'Tower of despair' by @Sneezy McGlassFace

SLOT 07: 'Simple death' by @Beubeu & @Lord Pachellus

SLOT 08: 'Malignant close quarters' by @Lord Pachellus

SLOT 09: @realjohnmadden

SLOT 10: @VICE

SLOT 11: 'Lugubrious gauntlet' by @Kuro_mahoh

SLOT 12: 'Unstable interportality' by @Lord Pachellus

SLOT 13: @NickMP

SLOT 14: 'Perfect blue' by @JackDBS

SLOT 15: 

SLOT 16: 'Filtering ruins' by @NickMP

SLOT 17: 

SLOT 18: 

SLOT 19: 'Gladiator' by @Novaseer

SLOT 20: @GoldenDragonLord

SLOT 21: 'Volcanic research facility' by @Lord Pachellus

SLOT 22: 'Slumbering leviathan' by @NickMP

SLOT 23: 

SLOT 24: @GoldenDragonLord

SLOT 25: 

SLOT 26: 

SLOT 27: @NickMP

SLOT 28: @JackDBS

SLOT 29: @Lord Pachellus

SLOT 30: @rafael2100 & @Novaseer

SLOT 31: 'The great pinkie conga line' by @JackDBS

SLOT 32: '5 minutes to termination' by @Lord Pachellus

 

 

Edited April 22 by Astro X

[Walter confetti]

Interesting project as i wrote in the other thread, good luck with it!

Not sure if i can join this one in the future, but it's certainly interesting!

[Kusogenes]

I've been interested in a project like this for a while now, nice to see it become a reality! I'll take MAP03.

Do maps have to fit a certain theme or can they be whatever?

[stridertech]

im snatching map05. glad to be a part of what is health, will be delighted to be a part of how much health :)

Edited December 15, 2023 by scientifikgenius

[Heretic926]

My two maps for What Is Health were a great learning experience. I definitely want to do something for the sequel, sign me up for MAP01.

[Azafran]

Nice to see a sequel to What is health! I had so much fun mapping for that.

 

Just my opinion on this one: I think the "gimmick" for this sequel is not as interesting as in the last one because it doesn't look like it will have a noticeable impact in gameplay for the player.

I'm going to put Doom 2 MAP04 as an example:

 

Quote

ULTRAVIOLENCE

Zombies: 6 - Health: 120

Shotgunners: 15 - Health: 450

Imps: 20 - Health: 1200

Pinkies: 4 - Health: 600

Chaingunners: 10 - Health 700

TOTAL: 3070

 

It has even less health total than the proposed map 4 for this project. And in the end the maps would just be following a normal progression of more enemies and more difficulty as they go up in the rooster.

 

My suggestion: what if, instead of setting a health limit per map, we use Dehacked to modify the health of every monster to a very low amount? That way it would be the inverse of the previous project. Instead of the player feeling very vulnerable, we can make it feel really powerful now and put a ridiculous amount of enemies in the maps.

 

What do you guys think?

[Novaseer]

why am I sorely tempted to make MAP01 just a Cybie duel

 

also how do spawn shooters count

edit: nevermind someone else took MAP01 but it'd still be funny and my second question still stands

Edited December 16, 2023 by Novaseer

[Astro X]

23 hours ago, Kusogenes said:

I've been interested in a project like this for a while now, nice to see it become a reality! I'll take MAP03.

Do maps have to fit a certain theme or can they be whatever?

Hey, welcome to the project!

 

20 hours ago, scientifikgenius said:

im snatching map05. glad to be a part of what is health, will be delighted to be a part of how much health :)

Sure, buddy.

 

8 hours ago, Heretic926 said:

My two maps for What Is Health were a great learning experience. I definitely want to do something for the sequel, sign me up for MAP01.

That's yours, buddy.

 

7 hours ago, Azafran said:

Nice to see a sequel to What is health! I had so much fun mapping for that.

 

Just my opinion on this one: I think the "gimmick" for this sequel is not as interesting as in the last one because it doesn't look like it will have a noticeable impact in gameplay for the player.

I'm going to put Doom 2 MAP04 as an example:

 

 

It has even less health total than the proposed map 4 for this project. And in the end the maps would just be following a normal progression of more enemies and more difficulty as they go up in the rooster.

 

My suggestion: what if, instead of setting a health limit per map, we use Dehacked to modify the health of every monster to a very low amount? That way it would be the inverse of the previous project. Instead of the player feeling very vulnerable, we can make it feel really powerful now and put a ridiculous amount of enemies in the maps.

 

What do you guys think?

Yea, I understand, but the former idea is yet to be implemented in a wad as far as I'm concerned. If we were to take your idea, which is nice as well, I think the project would lean towards "power fantasy" maps. Those in which you blast through hoardes of enemies, not caring about ammo or damage even. They focus on beautiful scenery and lots of ammo and powerups, and lots of monster that are usually easily dealt with.

 

1 hour ago, Novaseer said:

why am I sorely tempted to make MAP01 just a Cybie duel

 

also how do spawn shooters count

edit: nevermind someone else took MAP01 but it'd still be funny and my second question still stands

Well, I didn't think anyone would be interested in using monster spawners lol so Idk I think we should avoid those. But if you're really into them, I guess they won't count towards health total count, but make it reasonable.

[Novaseer]

Well, I think I have an idea for MAP04, so let's give it a go.

[Kuro_mahoh]

Can I take MAP11?

[Azafran]

1 hour ago, Astro X said:

Yea, I understand, but the former idea is yet to be implemented in a wad as far as I'm concerned. If we were to take your idea, which is nice as well, I think the project would lean towards "power fantasy" maps. Those in which you blast through hoardes of enemies, not caring about ammo or damage even. They focus on beautiful scenery and lots of ammo and powerups, and lots of monster that are usually easily dealt with.

 

I haven't played a lot of community WADS so I didn't know it was its own genre already! Still, I think the current idea will look just like a normal classic WAD, not that this is wrong of course.

In this case, can I take MAP02?

[JustAthel]

I wish my track record with community projects around here was good enough for me to join, but I will still gladly sit on the sidelines and watch how this one plays out!

[Astro X]

1 hour ago, Azafran said:

 

I haven't played a lot of community WADS so I didn't know it was its own genre already! Still, I think the current idea will look just like a normal classic WAD, not that this is wrong of course.

In this case, can I take MAP02?

Yea, we could try your idea, but that's gonna change basically the whole current concept! People would have to agree with that.

 

I accept suggestions on how to make the concept even more interesting. It is unique for sure, but maybe going from 4000HP to 5000HP isn't that noticeable when you're breezing through maps.

 

3 hours ago, Novaseer said:

Well, I think I have an idea for MAP04, so let's give it a go.

Oh, hello there. Assigned!

 

2 hours ago, Kuro_mahoh said:

Can I take MAP11?

Welcome back!

[Beubeu]

May i take map07 ?

 

 

[xScavengerWolfx]

This seem interesting. I will keep an eye on this for now in case the slots are not filled by the time i'm done with my stuff.

[SilverMiner]

There's a tool named WadSpy, which can be used to count total hp of all monsters. Just a thought

[NickMP]

This seems pretty interesting; I'd like to take MAP22!

[realjohnmadden]

A mapping contest, nice. I'd like to take MAP09, if it isn't already taken.

Edited December 17, 2023 by realjohnmadden
i added one word lmao

[Astro X]

On 12/16/2023 at 8:13 PM, SilverMiner said:

There's a tool named WadSpy, which can be used to count total hp of all monsters. Just a thought

Thank you, @SilverMiner!

 

@Beubeu @realjohnmadden @NickMP welcome to the project!

[realjohnmadden]

If my map has difficulties, does the total health requirement only apply to UV? Or do I have to replace some monsters and add other monsters to fulfill the requirement for lower skills?

[Novaseer]

4 hours ago, realjohnmadden said:

If my map has difficulties, does the total health requirement only apply to UV? Or do I have to replace some monsters and add other monsters to fulfill the requirement for lower skills?

For my map I've been controlling the amount and size of health items instead of monsters.

I.E. in a given spot, put four medkits in UV, a supercharge in HMP, and a megasphere in HNTR.

 

Spoiler

Maybe also ammo if your map has guns.

 

[realjohnmadden]

I done it (finished in about 12 or so hours) - "Hey! This Is MyCoolLevel."

Obviously goes over MAP09, music from the MIDIocrity album (Punch Your Way Through).

It is 100% possible to kill everything at the end of the level, by the way - just use your resources somewhat efficiently (don't pick up 20 invulns at once, you nincompoop).

No lost souls in the map - but there are Pain Elementals.

WADSPY output:

MAP09.zip

(minor updates - removed an unnecessary player spawn and fixed a wall not opening, I'm a big dumb doofus and sometimes I break stuff when I fix other stuff. just tested, completely beatable.)

Edited December 19, 2023 by realjohnmadden

[Novaseer]

To keep the ball rolling, MAP04 "Gaze Unbroken" now complete. Built on-and-off in 4 days with SLADE, tested with DSDADoom 0.27.5 complevel 9.

 

Didn't need to count awfully hard on the enemy HP department, considering there's a whole two (a Cyberdemon and a Spider Mastermind, adding up to the allotted 7000) that are teleporting turrets for most of the map. Plays a bit more like a puzzle than a typical Doom map (a fun departure from my typical slaughter-lite if I may say so myself), and I withhold weapons until the very end (an SSG, plus a plasma in a secret).

 

It's probably possible to get the two to infight early when the Cybie's in its second turret spot (by stepping on but not riding up the lift), but it's probably harder than playing the map legit so I'm leaving it in.

 

Balanced for UV pistol start. Lower difficulties get extra health and armour pickups, lose some barrels, plus some more shells and up to two invulns near the end. Continuous players with enough ammo can probably play peekaboo with the Cybie right at the start which breaks the flow of things quite substantially but eh, whatever.

 

Music is Malice (D_MALICE) by me, from my still-unreleased Depths 2. Also from its map 4, oddly enough.

 

2 monsters, 3 secrets and 164 items (most are hp/ar bonuses) on UV. Par time is 90 seconds based on a NoMo run. To get 100% kills you'll need to get the plasma secret, but it's doable.

 

Map layout (including inaccessible areas that don't show on the automap) is in the spoiler. Afraid I couldn't get the whole in-game automap to show up neatly in DSDADoom, but oh well.

Spoiler

 

 

Download link: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/rfwuwgebyyknxb5lf64wi/hmhmap4.wad?rlkey=3q8acssmi5cgirietoh832myj&dl=0

If anything's missing, let me know, the music lump deleted itself like 3 times during development.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Novaseer

[JackDBS]

Can I take MAP14?

[JackDBS]

Along with Map31 I got a silly map idea perfect for a secret level.

[Kusogenes]

Finished up MAP03: Spider's Den. I believe the health count should be exactly 6000, but considering it was a manual check, I might be wrong. Multiplayer spawns are added in, along with difficulty settings that add more health and ammo.

The MIDI used in the map is Super Villains from Maximum Carnage (SNES).

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/6h1kr8d4vn8e9dirh9z9j/Spider-s-Den.zip?rlkey=dn2z9xzvnt9xjzimfc1hueoso&dl=0

[Novaseer]

Just played through other peoples' submitted maps, because why not.

 

1 hour ago, Kusogenes said:

Finished up MAP03: Spider's Den. I believe the health count should be exactly 6000, but considering it was a manual check, I might be wrong. Multiplayer spawns are added in, along with difficulty settings that add more health and ammo.

The MIDI used in the map is Super Villains from Maximum Carnage (SNES).

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/6h1kr8d4vn8e9dirh9z9j/Spider-s-Den.zip?rlkey=dn2z9xzvnt9xjzimfc1hueoso&dl=0

This one was quite a bit of fun! Great minds think alike with the SMM turret, I enjoyed the Pinky/Chaingunner berserk fight at the red key, and I totally fell for that fake door in the northeast, lmao.

I didn't encounter any glaring bugs, and the visuals are more than serviceable.

Completed in just over 6 minutes UV-max, about two minutes of which I spent humping walls trying to find the secret.

 

On 12/18/2023 at 6:17 PM, realjohnmadden said:

I done it (finished in about 12 or so hours) - "Hey! This Is MyCoolLevel."

Obviously goes over MAP09, music from the MIDIocrity album (Punch Your Way Through).

It is 100% possible to kill everything at the end of the level, by the way - just use your resources somewhat efficiently (don't pick up 20 invulns at once, you nincompoop).

No lost souls in the map - but there are Pain Elementals.

WADSPY output:

MAP09.zip

(minor updates - removed an unnecessary player spawn and fixed a wall not opening, I'm a big dumb doofus and sometimes I break stuff when I fix other stuff. just tested, completely beatable.)

I can't help but question WADSPY here - I'm no mathematician, but I count 15 Cyberdemons and 4 Spider Masterminds, and those combined add up to 72,000, which is... a little higher than MAP09's 16k. That, combined with the 363 enemies (which should average out to 44.07 health per monster) I can't help but question if the actual number is a truncated 160010!

 

Some secrets seemed nigh-on unmissable - sector #144 is lowered by shoot-switches splat bang in the middle of a combat area, leading me to open it by accident first run, and sector #194 is behind a normal, use-to-unlock door - to the point where I actually thought it was the way I was supposed to go at first.

 

I also found a few oversights while playing, mostly with textures:

Spoiler

Misaligned texture that doesn't match the brick on the other side of the door:

 

Misaligned texture:

 

Hall of Mirrors, which I'm guessing is caused by the out-of-bounds height change sector:

 

Two things here - the Cybie and SMM are clipping into each other, making both paralysed until one is killed. Secondly, the wall here is at a REALLY awkward height - high enough to be able to block a good amount of attacks both ways.

 

Some sectors as a whole seemed pointless too - 79 and 80, 100 and 101, 132, 140 and 141, 167 and 185, 180, 244 and 245, 256 and 265, 313, 320 and 328, 334 and 335, 337 and 350 all seem like they can be safely merged, and there's plenty of 0 height tag 0 sectors that are probably better off deleted (81, 85 and 102 are probably the most extreme examples)

 

And I'd hide the voodoo doll sectors from the automap.

 

Those aside, I enjoyed the big circle arena near the beginning, as well as the fight with all the Dead Simpleites as you teleport back to the first indoor room. And reservations about the amount of them aside, invuln BFGing Cybies is always fun.

Completed in UV-max in about 19:30.

[Xaser]

Dropping by to do my usual evangelism :P -- There's no reason to stick to Boom/CL9 these days, since dsda-doom and its contemporaries all support MBF21 -- it's got everything Boom has and then some (the new block player and block land monster flags in particular are very damn useful), and it's backwards-compatible with Boom so folks who have already submitted a cl9 map (or don't find a use for any of the new stuff) don't have to convert anything. Win-win. :P

 

Since there's a comment in the OP about not necessarily sticking to exactly 32 maps, y'all might already have UMAPINFO on your radar, but if not, definitely check that out too.

[realjohnmadden]

10 hours ago, Novaseer said:

I can't help but question WADSPY here - I'm no mathematician, but I count 15 Cyberdemons and 4 Spider Masterminds, and those combined add up to 72,000, which is... a little higher than MAP09's 16k. That, combined with the 363 enemies (which should average out to 44.07 health per monster) I can't help but question if the actual number is a truncated 160010!

I just mapped until I got to 16k HP. I imagine that WADSPY is truncating the last digit, since removing some stuff now makes it say the total is 9059, and adding a single Zombieman makes that 9061.

[realjohnmadden]

I'll probably swap mapslots - I managed to cut it down to 42000HP, the total health requirement of MAP20. Cutting it down to 16k would remove a lot of enemies, so I'll let someone else do MAP09 as it's not exactly feasible to redo the entire map to make it smaller.

I also moved it to MAP20 and fixed some stuff like the height of the giant Revenant-Caco cage and the HOM from the fake floor-ceiling in the sewer area, as well as every texture bug I could find. (Don't mind the filename - I don't feel like renaming it right now, because of the associated DBS files.)

MAP09.zip

Edited December 22, 2023 by realjohnmadden