Is using SAVES in Doom bad?

[Treehouseminis]

I use saves all the time.  I like a challenge and play on UV most of the time but I don't wanna grind for single segment runs.  My personal rule is try not to save mid fight but I break this on occasion anyway if it's like my 20th attempt.  Play how you want :) 

[Chipper35]

I know this is jerkish, but I can live with it: Any time anyone asks a question using moralistic terms, e.g. "Is X bad?" ----- I always answer yes. Because (unless you're making sure about murder or rape) if you come to a place like this to find out if something is 'bad', I feel sorry for you. What matters about the answer? Seriously? If it is 'bad', then what does that mean in your life? You are 'bad' for using game saves......? Seriously.....? You have to check with others to get that answer....? Really?! Pathetic.

[Maximum Matt]

You're not truly playing Doom if you're relying on saves.  

[treulosetomate]

16 hours ago, Chipper35 said:

I know this is jerkish, but I can live with it: Any time anyone asks a question using moralistic terms, e.g. "Is X bad?" ----- I always answer yes. Because (unless you're making sure about murder or rape) if you come to a place like this to find out if something is 'bad', I feel sorry for you. What matters about the answer? Seriously? If it is 'bad', then what does that mean in your life? You are 'bad' for using game saves......? Seriously.....? You have to check with others to get that answer....? Really?! Pathetic.

OP must be very young.

[Syoku]

18 hours ago, Chipper35 said:

I know this is jerkish, but I can live with it: Any time anyone asks a question using moralistic terms, e.g. "Is X bad?" ----- I always answer yes. Because (unless you're making sure about murder or rape) if you come to a place like this to find out if something is 'bad', I feel sorry for you. What matters about the answer? Seriously? If it is 'bad', then what does that mean in your life? You are 'bad' for using game saves......? Seriously.....? You have to check with others to get that answer....? Really?! Pathetic.

I mean, I completely get where they are coming from. In communities, you may feel like you're weird or ostracized for moving away from what's considered the norm; how many times have you read that playing Doom at your native res is bad, or using GZDoom is bad? Insecurities are real, even if it's about something like how you spend your own personal time or how you play your own games when you're interacting with a community.

 

It ultimately doesn't matter though. You can do what you want with Doom. It's your game and nobody can tell you what the best way to play is (unless the wad creator suggests a way, I guess?)

[fruity lerlups]

I think everyone wants approval from a community theyre invested in and worried about getting called a poseur, so when they see like Decino or someone doing single segment runs or even single segment blind runs they think thats a "norm" when thats just, like a content/competition format. You might get the impression from doom content creators that thats how they normally play, but thats definitely not their intent. It makes me appreciate when Coincident or Decino do stuff like when Decino was doing Dimensions with saves, since the levels are long. 

[Pegleg]

On 12/16/2023 at 5:59 PM, Pegleg said:

Of course saving your game in Doom is bad.
 

EVERYONE knows that the ONE TRUE RIGHT WAY to play Doom is keyboard-only Nightmare Tyson reality, blind and without saves.

 

 Honestly, if you can’t beat a map, mapset, or megawad in one try without taking a hit, then how can you call yourself a real gamer?

 

If you’re not deleting wad files as soon as you finish them (because playing them a second time wouldn’t be blind), then how can you even look at yourself in the mirror?

 

Oh, but I need saves because I can’t possibly beat Eviternity II in one sitting. Oh, how could I possibly get through Sunder without taking a hit? Oh, there’s no way I could find optimal routes to speedrun maps without playing them multiple times. Ha. Get good, losers.

 

So, to summarize, yes, using saves in Doom is bad and, furthermore, anyone who saves their game should feel bad for doing it and not call themselves a “good player” or “real gamer” or anything like that.

 

@Downcologo one

 

In case it wasn't evident, I was being intentionally over the top (and I tried to make it ridiculously so, especially to anyone who has ever read anything I have ever posted before). I have realized subsequently that this was not the best way to approach your question, so here is my real answer:

 

It is NOT BAD to play Doom with saves. It is NOT BAD to play Doom without saves. The only thing that is actually BAD is seriously telling someone else that the way they enjoy playing is wrong and that they should feel bad about themselves if they play that way.

 

Play Doom however you feel like it. If you, as a player, enjoys playing on a lower difficulty level and saving often, then play that way. I generally play on ITYTD or HNTR (continuous, too), and I usually save my game several times during each map. But, at the same time, if you, as a player, enjoys UV pistol starting maps and saving only when you're done playing for day, that's fine, too. The vast majority of us are playing Doom to have a good time, and if you're not having fun, then you change what you're doing.

 

And if you, as a player, happen to be someone who does derive pleasure from playing all maps blind reality nightmare Tyson without ever saving, then, by all means, knock yourself out.

 

As long as none of us is gatekeeping how someone else enjoys playing Doom, then we're all good.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Players who insist you should be playing UV pistol start without saves and run away at the first mention of nightmare are ridiculous, don't listen to them and play however you want.

[zokum]

The main reason using saves is considered bad form is that monsters all lose their target when you load a game. They essentially fall asleep. This can make maps significantly easier, so beating a map with saves can be considered a form of cheating, especially if it is done with the intent of pacifying monsters. If a map relies on a monster being awake to trigger something, you can even end up being stuck unless you manage to wake it up again. This isn't a common mapping technique though.

Making monsters fall asleep can make maps played with respawning (skill 5 etc.) a lot easier. As long as you know what saves lead to, feel free to use it, but you shouldn't claim to have finished a map on a specific skill setting if you used this advantage. Some ports have a fix for this bug/side effect, so depending on what executable people commonly use, they may have different ideas of how much of an advantage saving and loading is.

Historically it is viewed as a bug, and exploiting it can be seen as a way to make maps easier. Saving on an map wit all monsters killed where you miss a few secrets is harmless and a very legitimate way to save that adds no advantages.

[Scorpinax]

Confusing poll options, yes or no what?

I save at the beginning of each level so I can keep my weapons. If the level is super long, I may make a mid level save or two. Play the game the way you want, the save function is there for a reason 

[bobstremglav]

On 12/17/2023 at 8:26 PM, Firebert said:

looking forward to next week's regular "how to play doom" opinion thread. Maybe we'll see something like "Is ultra-violence the correct difficulty?"

Of course no, true way is playing all wads on nightmare. And if you die in game you die in real life

[MS-06FZ Zaku II Kai]

On 12/15/2023 at 7:47 PM, Downcologo one said:

The other day I had seen people saying that using saves was wrong and other people saying that it was good, I would like to know the general opinion of the community about the use of saves in Doom.

 

Doom is basicaly FPS shmup. Saves are built like savestates which serve to let you practice certain section to later finnish it saveless

[The Doommer]

On 12/19/2023 at 7:58 PM, Dragonsbrethren said:

From a game design standpoint, I vastly prefer a checkpoint system over being able to save anywhere.

I can't entirely agree with this. Altho this depends on the game. (Like a COD game doesn't make much sense with a save-everywhere feature), games that let you save anywhere you want allow you to explore your way of playing it much more than a checkpoint system (non-linear games would benefit a lot from this)

 

I don't save on the IWADs (except Plutonia) unless I want to put the game aside.

That being said, there's no reason not to save if you prefer to save.

[prfunky]

On 12/15/2023 at 2:13 PM, yakfak said:

my toxic trait is forgetting to use saves and then skipping to the next map when I die

 

sadly, when playing others new wads, this is exactly what I do. ^

I have no shame in my poor playing abilities and want to see as much of authors' work

as possible in the limited time I'm going to be playing. That's why I don't see much of a

map if it's hard-as-hell from the get-go. I end up just quitting it and trying the next author's.

 

On 12/15/2023 at 2:42 PM, plums said:

.. I remember Ribbiks used to complain about people saving at the wrong time when playing his maps. When you're really low on health, the impulse is to save so you don't die, but if you're using only one save slot you definitely don't want to use it when you're already in real trouble. Use multiple slots or just only save when you have good health and supplies.

 

Nice strategy! ^

 

On 12/17/2023 at 9:26 AM, Firebert said:

looking forward to next week's regular "how to play doom" opinion thread. Maybe we'll see something like "Is ultra-violence the correct difficulty?"

 

Funny; having played different ports, I'm too lazy to change whatever the default difficulty is on

the opening menu. Some ports default to Hurt Me Plenty, some Ultra-Violence. I mean, it's what,

two more key taps to change the difficulty?!

 

On 12/19/2023 at 6:39 AM, fruity lerlups said:

..., you should be playing with an original 1993 IBM Model M keyboard plugged in via PS2 port...

 

I love my '93 Model M...

 

On 12/19/2023 at 7:50 AM, idbeholdME said:

... The proper term should honestly be load-scumming. Doesn't matter if you make 100 saves a second when you never load one.

 

Genius!! ^

 

On 1/2/2024 at 7:30 AM, zokum said:

The main reason using saves is considered bad form is that monsters all lose their target when you load a game. They essentially fall asleep. This can make maps significantly easier, so beating a map with saves can be considered a form of cheating, especially if it is done with the intent of pacifying monsters. If a map relies on a monster being awake to trigger something, you can even end up being stuck unless you manage to wake it up again. This isn't a common mapping technique though...

 

Fascinating! I had no idea of this bug/feature. ^ At some point in time, I'll need to do some testing...

 

------------------------------------------------------

Most of my DooM development has been doing deathmatch maps until very recently. When testing

my single-player map, I found game saving to be useful as a sortof bookmark system to jump around

to different sections of the map when testing things. Unfortunately, whenever a new version of the

map is saved, all those save points become shmutz because I'm no longer loading the same wad file.

However, when all I've done is changed resources in a wad, such as a texture replacement of editing

the frames of custom monster sprites and even changing code in DECORATE, the saves are good.

 

I still love my deathmatch with monsters maps best. Hitting spacebar to instantly resurrect oneself but

not necessarily in the same starting location satisfies my need to keep playing and for me, is somehow

more fun than having to go back to some point in history where X was dead but Y hadn't been killed

yet. I'm not saying I'll never make another single-player map again, I'm just saying the thought process

for producing them is different.

 

So what's my verdict on the topic at hand?

You do what you want. I'd prefer to not play a game where I feel the need to save. I guess that means

I'm neither against saving or for saving but rather play without dire consequences to my entertainment.

 

[RICHIE B]

I was very strict for years about not saving and having to complete the whole map in one go; even though I kept losing to the final room in Plutonia Map 09 Abbatoire. I would start the level from the beginning every time.

 

That was until Eviternity Map 12 Brisk. After 26 deaths, much of which were in the final battle I decided life's just too short, and I save within reason now.

[Murdoch]

On 12/16/2023 at 8:07 PM, IHave10Shells said:

Yeah, especially since everyone used keyboard-only back then.

 

No they didn't.

 

But yes, Save Games are wrong. Playing saveless sorts the Gods from the mere mortals. When you save, the ghosts of your ancestors cry out in horror and shame, and will never look upon you with favour ever again.

Except no, not really. That is even up for discussion and has done so so many times is beyond ludicrous. It is a game. It's supposed to be fun. Play whichever way makes you have fun. It's a feature of the game, not a cheat. Use it how you see fit.

 

Edited January 5, 2024 by Murdoch

[Super Mighty G]

You haven't beaten Doom unless you've done fists only on Nightmare with no saves on a 386 while disarming a bomb. 

[Jello]

7 hours ago, Murdoch said:

 

No they didn't.

 

But yes, Save Games are wrong. Playing saveless sorts the Gods from the mere mortals. When you save, the ghosts of your ancestors cry out in horror and shame, and will never look upon you with favour ever again.

Except no, not really. That is even up for discussion and has done so so many times is beyond ludicrous. It is a game. It's supposed to be fun. Play whichever way makes you have fun. It's a feature of the game, not a cheat. Use it how you see fit.

 

I always loved the way the Postal Dude insulted you when you saved too often in Postal 2.

"Didn't you just save?"

"My Grandmother could beat the game if she saved as much as you do!"

 

As for me, if the game allows quicksaves, I'm going to use them. I don't feel the need to handicap myself just because I want to enjoy the game. I spent enough time being pissed off at Ghosts 'n Goblins, Contra, and Megaman 2 that by the time Super Mario World came around with it's overworld map and save areas I was happy.

[The Doommer]

1 hour ago, Super Mighty G said:

You haven't beaten Doom unless you've done fists only on Nightmare with no saves on a 386 while disarming a bomb. 

Amateurs, try defusing a nuke

 

On 1/3/2024 at 12:18 AM, bobstremglav said:

Of course no, true way is playing all wads on nightmare. And if you die in game you die in real life

Next Jigsaw game be like:

"I want to play a game, you play Nightmare Plutonia on a PC attached to a double-barreled shotgun. If you die it will fire and kill you. Live or die, player, the choice is yours."

Edited January 5, 2024 by The Doommer

[Agent Strange]

Play games the way you want. Cheat, steal, kill. Become ungovernable.