"Forgive and Forget"?

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

Sorry to talk about shower thought-psychology on Doomworld, but this is a question I think about a lot that I can't bring up with most because there's never an appropriate time talk about it. I'll try to keep it simple:

For as long as I can remember, I've always heard (usually from people over the age of 50) stuff like "you can forgive but you can never forget" and "be careful what you say, because you can never take it back" as well as "angry/drunk words are true thoughts". Am I the only one who thinks this is a shitty way of going about life? I think that if you've truly forgiven someone, you might as well have forgotten too.  I think what people really mean is "I'll forgive you but I'll hold it over your head when it's convenient for me". It's also a delusional idea to abide by: everyone knows that people say things they don't mean all the time.

I feel like it's an unfair way to try to censor someone's words by making them "be nice" and hold their true feelings in. If you cannot accept that people say things in the heat of the moment that they don't normally feel, you're an idiot. If you can't forget about it, then I don't think you've forgiven the person. And the "drunk words" thing - bullshit. My uncle got drunk one night when he was my age and decided to strip naked at the bar and scream about a pornstar while he rubbed his crotch on the dart board. Trust me, he doesn't have these kinds of thoughts when he's sober. When I got angry at my neighbor Martha and lit her house on fire, I didn't really mean it when I called her a hag. She knows that.

Anyway, how do you feel about forgiving people and forgetting the past? Do you think that some people are just unwilling or incapable of actually forgiving?

[act]

UH WHAT ABOUT THE FUCKING "LIT HER HOUSE ON FIRE" BIT

[Murdoch]

Depends on the action and the person who did it. There's no hard and fast rule. I have little tolerance for those who chose to harm others, especially children. Especially their own children. Punching down cause you feel bad makes you a gutless coward, and harming your own children is an utterly abominable betrayal of trust.

 

When it comes to harming those of more equal emotional and physical standing (eg: a friend) my general approach is once is a mistake, twice is cause for concern, three times is a pattern. If they keep repeating the same harmful actions towards you even though you've talked to them about it, then they obviously can't or won't stop. Where it goes from there depends again on the person and situation. An addict or someone with depression needs help, but if they're just an asshole then remove them from your life. So yeah, no hard and fast rule. Every situation is different, every person different. 

[Caffeine Freak]

My quick, 2 cent response: I've always interpreted the idea of 'forgiving but not forgetting' to basically mean 'you can and should forgive the dude who steals your jack off magazines, but it doesn't mean you make the mistake of letting him use your bathroom again.'

 

In other words, release them from the anger you hold over them in your mind, but don't automatically stick your neck out to be burned again.

[Murdoch]

6 minutes ago, Caffeine Freak said:

My quick, 2 cent response: I've always interpreted the idea of 'forgiving but not forgetting' to basically mean 'you can and should forgive the dude who steals your jack off magazines, but it doesn't mean you make the mistake of letting him use your bathroom again.'

 

In other words, release them from the anger you hold over them in your mind, but don't automatically stick your neck out to be burned again.

 

Exactly. I don't think forgetting a significant betrayal is really viable at all. For example if some guy cheats on his wife but the wife decides to stay for the sake of the kids, then for it to work she eventually needs to forgive him and find some way to trust him again or it helps no one. She'll always be expecting the next betrayal and kids aren't idiots. They'll pick up on the tension. But even if she does eventually forgive him, she'll never forget it. It would be impossible to do so.

["JL" was too short]

If you do something bad enough that people will remember it, then it's probably bad enough that people should remember it.  Not to use it for leverage against you, but to keep themselves and others safe.

When it comes to intoxicated actions, the anecdote about your uncle is something that sounds half-made-up to me, but supposing for the sake of argument that it's real, I'll point out that ethanol molecules do not in fact serve to implant alien thoughts into the minds of hapless victims.

[kevansevans]

People aren't owed forgiveness.

 

There are some things and some people who make mistakes that are past redemption, and the idea that forgiveness can be earned with enough apology or time breeds its own form of toxicity. Shitty people take advantage of this common assumption and use it as a form of emotional manipulation so their negative actions aren't held against them, and then they continue to be shitty. When people can take responsibility for their actions, show that they've put that behavior behind them, then they can start to earn that forgiveness.

 

Relevant video.

Edited December 27, 2023 by kevansevans

[Fonze]

1 hour ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

"you can forgive but you can never forget" and "be careful what you say, because you can never take it back" as well as "angry/drunk words are true thoughts".

 

The first is pointing out that if we feel like we made a mistake, or an error in trusting somebody with a particular thing, like not getting naked in front of a crowd of people, then we can choose to forgive, but we should not forget that maybe the things which led up to said event or mistake should not be repeated. We do need to learn from our mistakes, however indirect they may be. How you choose to interpret the lesson is up to you, maybe you stop having drinks around that person, maybe you cut them out of your life in situations you cannot have a naked, drunk uncle running around in, but yes as you said it shouldn't be held over that person's head, assuming nobody was hurt and nothing bad happened as a result. Humans are multifaceted creatures and we are more than the sum of our mistakes. In fact, how we respond to our mistakes is often a better way to judge one's character than looking solely at the mistakes themselves.

 

The second is a good point to be considerate of other people's feelings. You can't force somebody to forget that you've mistreated, disrespected, or otherwise hurt them, and likewise you cannot expect them to forgive you. Don't say something hurtful to somebody if you're not ready to burn a bridge. While that also doesn't make it okay for somebody who has been hurt to never let you live it down, it is also completely fair that it may take some time for them to recover from a broken trust.

 

Angry/drunk words may be exaggerated, and perhaps should be more forgivable, but that's just not how humans work. Nobody can read another's mind to know how much or how little they really believe what they say, or to know how much a thing just riled somebody up a moment before to lead to all this, or whatever the case is... all we can do is hear the tone of voice, observe facial expressions, body language, then compare against our previous interactions and the idea of the other person in our own head, which itself may not be at all similar to how said other person views themselves. Point being, there is so much room for interpretation with these things that it isn't fair to put that level of responsibility for analysis on anybody, let alone somebody who may have just been hurt. It is much more fair for us all to have respect for one another and to have a filter for one's own thoughts before forming them into hurtful words on everybody.

 

Also, in all of this (3rd example), this focuses entirely on the person who is drunk saying the things and not on the person who is having the things said to them. Just as we could take a moment to consider how the drunk person may not really feel that way, or may have had stuff happen leading up to this, or whatever, so may the person who is being berated. We should absolutely also apply the same level of understanding to them, maybe they've had a rough day, or maybe they are making a connection to a previous argument or feeling when dealing with example drunk person.

 

Of course there is a ton of inferred points here and I don't mean to put words in anybody's mouth perhaps arguing points that were not intended to be points, and to that I do agree fully that the mantra of "forgive but don't forget" can be twisted into something worse, but it also isn't inherently flawed. As said by others here: judge on case by case basis.

[Lucius Wooding]

2 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

I think what people really mean is "I'll forgive you but I'll hold it over your head when it's convenient for me". It's also a delusional idea to abide by: everyone knows that people say things they don't mean all the time.

 

By the same token, people often apologize and try to make up when it's convenient for them. It doesn't mean they won't continue shitty behavior in the future. If somebody wrongs you it shouldn't be forgotten because it's important to recognize when it's a pattern of abusive behavior.

[Li'l devil]

I think each person has their own standards of which things should be forgiven and which shouldn't. I often tend to forgive or be indifferent to someone's offenses while many other people would dislike them or even cut communications with them for that. But there are also things which I personally have no tolerance to, when most other people wouldn't care.

But of course it's important to know that people change. Especially young people (older people not much, I suppose). Sometimes a person can change significantly in a matter of just 2-3 years, and I think this means one should be willing to give more chances to them.

[houston]

1 hour ago, jerrysheppy said:

I'll point out that ethanol molecules do not in fact serve to implant alien thoughts into the minds of hapless victims. 

It loosens up the barrier between the "mouth", public relations agent of the human, and the " brain", which, drunk or not, will spew an unconscious stream of utterly inane and insane thought into your internal monologue, and that'll happen no matter what your beliefs are or how otherwise socially-adjusted you are.

Thoughts mean nothing until they're put into words or action. People think about all kinds of things, break-checking, playing chicken, throwing the baby they're holding into the ground, sticking forks in the microwave oven, they're not schizophrenics or murderous psychopaths until any of that happens. Rather extreme example compared to hurtful words I guess, but I think it illustrates the point well.

 

Basically, the alien thoughts are in everyone, drinks just have the possibility of making it verbal.

[Chezza]

Never forget, ever. If you do, you're either naive, in denial or have a short memory. I'm sure Martha appreciates this.

 

Hopefully in time OP learns to appreciate this too.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Chezza

[Dark Pulse]

Forgiving is noble, but some things are simply unforgivable.

 

If someone called me a name, that's one thing. If someone killed my kid, that's a whole other ballgame.

[Antkibo]

I believe the "don't forget" part is more about growing and accepting what had transpired in a "fool me once, fool me twice" manner, i.e. remember so as to not repeat the same mistake if possible and to not inflict the same onto others

 

As other people said, some mistakes can be forgotten though others hardly so

 

Edit: About your uncle, I can't see how he did something that needed to be forgiven. Though that depends on the person; maybe someone close by felt offended by his behavior. I don't know, may as well discuss what is actually in need of forgiveness

Edited December 27, 2023 by Antkibo

[Mr. Freeze]

I always took it as "I forgive you, but I'm not gonna let you do to me again." 

[DNSKILL5]

It’s easy to forgive in some situations but far harder to forget. Especially if you have to face the person on a regular basis. “Don’t shit where you eat” and all that aside, when you have to face that person at a professional level you have to put it all aside anyhow, but it really does depend on how one wronged you anyways. There’s definitely exceptions. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by DNSKILL5

["JL" was too short]

13 hours ago, houston said:

It loosens up the barrier between the "mouth", public relations agent of the human, and the " brain", which, drunk or not, will spew an unconscious stream of utterly inane and insane thought into your internal monologue, and that'll happen no matter what your beliefs are or how otherwise socially-adjusted you are.

Thoughts mean nothing until they're put into words or action. People think about all kinds of things, break-checking, playing chicken, throwing the baby they're holding into the ground, sticking forks in the microwave oven, they're not schizophrenics or murderous psychopaths until any of that happens. Rather extreme example compared to hurtful words I guess, but I think it illustrates the point well.

 

Basically, the alien thoughts are in everyone, drinks just have the possibility of making it verbal.

Believe me, I have experienced what it's like to have intrusive thoughts.  All the way from the relatively harmless "you should throw your phone out the window of a moving car" to envisioning the theoretical possibility of doing horrible things to someone I love.  Those are in some sense "alien thoughts", so if you want to quibble over my choice of words then I'll concede on the issue of terminology.  They still don't mind control me or make me any more likely to do the thing in contradiction of who "I" am, distressing though they may be.

I also know what it's like to be extremely drunk/high.  It is not mind control either.

I stand by what I said.

[LadyMistDragon]

Forgetting the past is kind of a bad idea because you won't be on your guard. At the same time, you shouldn't immediately assume that said person who needs forgiving is necessarily out to get you or hurt you again. Don't trust them any farther than you can throw them, obviously, (basically, don't give them anything they can use to take advantage of you before they've earned their life) but don't just close them off if they're making a genuine attempt at forgiveness. That's just plain shitty.

Edited December 28, 2023 by LadyMistDragon

[rita remton]

On 12/27/2023 at 4:21 AM, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

"you can forgive but you can never forget"

imo, it means don't hold a grudge to the person that has wronged you because nobody's perfect but be extra cautious of him/her. holding a grudge only adds burden to ones own heart and eats up one's own happiness, forces one to live in the past which (the past) cannot be changed, and has no negative effect on the wrongdoer whatsoever. however, in many cases, this is easier said then done.

 

On 12/27/2023 at 4:21 AM, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

"be careful what you say, because you can never take it back"

umm... same as everything posted on the internet, i guess.

 

On 12/27/2023 at 4:21 AM, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

"angry/drunk words are true thoughts"

imo, not true. if one looses the capacity to lie by being drunk, then it could be argued one could also loose the capacity to speak the truth while being drunk.

 

On 12/27/2023 at 4:21 AM, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

how do you feel about forgiving people and forgetting the past? Do you think that some people are just unwilling or incapable of actually forgiving?

forgive in order to free oneself from the past in order to live in the present and move forward in life. but the past still needs to be remembered to learn from and for personal security reasons. everyone is unique and nobody is perfect. thus, it is quite acceptable that some people can't forgive, because as mentioned earlier - easier said then done.

 

just my 2 cents. best wishes and good luck in life :)

[Aeddes666]

In the part about forgiving but not forgetting, whoever says this is stupid is usually the one who did the stupid thing, not the victim.

 

As for alcohol/anger, that doesn't make anyone bad. The evil is already there. These things just take the mask off.

 

My 2 cents.

[ＤΞＬＴΛ]

to put it simply, i have a particular mentality where i'm always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt and give them a second chance to own up to their mistakes, if they change from what they've done and become better people, then they in my books redeemed themselves, if they can't then fuck them right royally, of course there's occasions where i'll show ZERO mercy to someone, but for the most part i always give people a chance to change no matter how fucked up they are depending on if they change from their mistakes and become better people as a result, of course i'll never forget what they did or said but i found it's always way better to be level headed and peaceful about things, you get less hate that way if you always act super chill about things and treat your mistakes as an opportunity to learn and better yourself as a person.

 

on an even more simpler term, i forgive depending on if someone can change but i don't forget what they did or said, i have no reasons to hate someone about 90% of the time.

[Koko Ricky]

As far as "forgive and forget" goes, I'm more a fan of "forgive and be cautious." I've let go of people who proved to be a poor fit for me. I forgave them for their actions, but I didn't forget their actions, because I need to be aware of signs someone is being toxic toward me or others. Forgetting would be irresponsible here. Of course, if we're talking about minor, insignificant infractions, then the "forget" part applies. 

 

As for drunkenness? I've noticed people who normally hide social flaws (such as being overly macho or argumentive) are more likely to exhibit them when drinking. My personal experience with alcohol is that it does not amplify ill behavior, but I also barely drink.

Edited January 7, 2024 by Koko Ricky