give me a good reason as to why the pain elemental is a "bad" enemy

[Andrea Rovenski]

7 hours ago, Shepardus said:

My only gripe with the pain elemental is the three lost souls it spawns when it dies. 400HP for the pain elemental itself isn't so bad, but unless you block or ignore the lost souls that's another 300HP's worth of monsters to deal with, and it's inefficient to take them out with the SSG and slow with the chaingun. It makes pain elementals annoying even if you prioritize them right away. They're much less of a pain in WADs that nerf the lost soul's HP, and I reckon they'd also be better if they spawned only two or one lost souls upon death (or none at all).

this is by far the best part because the skill involved in blocking the souls feels good to do every time. 

 

I love pain elementals, easily one of the best enemies in the game because it's different, heavily dynamic, always changes combat just by its mere presence, and single handedly made lost souls not monsters anymore. 

[Gifty]

The pain elemental is cool, lost souls are what's annoying.

[bofu]

My hot take: the Pain Elemental is not a problem. Lost Souls are a problem.

 

It would be fine dealing with dozens of Lost Souls if they didn't take an SSG blast apiece to destroy on a stage. The threat that the large numbers of Lost Souls present isn't that big a deal, it's how much time you have to whittle away on them after the Pain Elemental dies that is a problem.

[Herr Dethnout]

Because it pukes Lost Souls. That's more than enough to hate it.


Also, it looks lie a big turd with arms, ugh.

[ginc]

Pain Elementals and/or Lost Souls are only a problem (either boring or too oppressive) if the player doesn't have good weapons when you introduce them. They are collectively tanky (due to spawning 100HP Lost Souls), so dealing with them with anything less than a Rocket Launcher is just meh.

 

There are a lot of WADs that nerf Lost Soul health (usually to 50), and while this change can make maps more "fun", they also make Pain Elementals much less threatening in every situation. Its one of the few areas where I'm a purist and prefer the default - just don't use them in a boring way.

 

IMO if you're going to nerf the Lost Soul health, you should also make them more dangerous (ie. much more aggressive).

Edited December 28, 2023 by ginc

[magicsofa]

Free infighting dispenser, I see no issues

[Pseudonaut]

Second best enemy in the game, surpassed only by the archvile.

[roadworx]

7 hours ago, Gmg said:

A lot of ammo is wasted killing the lost souls, also you have to give priority to kill pain elementals first.

t h a t s  t h e  p o i n t

 

1 hour ago, bofu said:

My hot take: the Pain Elemental is not a problem. Lost Souls are a problem.

 

It would be fine dealing with dozens of Lost Souls if they didn't take an SSG blast apiece to destroy on a stage. The threat that the large numbers of Lost Souls present isn't that big a deal, it's how much time you have to whittle away on them after the Pain Elemental dies that is a problem.

the lost souls being that way makes the pe far more of a threat tho, that's the thing. if the lost souls had lower health that allowed them to be killed with a only a single shotgun blast, then leaving a pe to do its thing wouldn't be such a huge deal; you absolutely HAVE to go after them otherwise you'll wind up having to waste tons of ammo dealing with the resulting lost souls.

[DankMetal]

For whoever that finds the pain elemental as an "unfair" enemy; you can "cope" and "seethe" all you want or whatever are saying kids these days.

[Cynical]

11 hours ago, roadworx said:

it's fairly common to hear that the pain elemental is a "poorly designed" enemy

[citation needed]

[Naarok0fkor]

It doesn`t have this kind of action:

FRAME 705 = FaceTarget
FRAME 706 = PainDie
FRAME 707 = PainDie
FRAME 709 = PainDie
FRAME 710 = PainDie
FRAME 711 = PainDie
FRAME 712 = PainDie
FRAME 714 = PainDie
FRAME 716 = PainDie
FRAME 717 = PainDie
FRAME 719 = PainDie

 

[Scuba Steve]

Because it's just some stupid franken-sprite Cacodemon with imp arms. Low-effort-asset-looking-motherfucker.

[plums]

35 minutes ago, Naarok0fkor said:

It doesn`t have this kind of action:

FRAME 705 = FaceTarget
FRAME 706 = PainDie
FRAME 707 = PainDie
FRAME 709 = PainDie
FRAME 710 = PainDie
FRAME 711 = PainDie
FRAME 712 = PainDie
FRAME 714 = PainDie
FRAME 716 = PainDie
FRAME 717 = PainDie
FRAME 719 = PainDie

 

Good improvement, also arch-viles should be able to resurrect them.

[Fonze]

3 hours ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

single handedly made lost souls not monsters anymore. 

Ah yes, the famous old experiment proving that lost souls are both monsters and projectiles ❤️

[Naarok0fkor]

2 minutes ago, plums said:

Good improvement, also arch-viles should be able to resurrect them.

I didn't know about that one. Maybe if someone would insert a "dead" final frame with the get-up frames things would be more fun... 

[roadworx]

Just now, Cynical said:

[citation needed]

what, do you want me to make an entire goddamn bibliography of all the times people have said that pain elementals are poorly designed or something? i can dredge up a bunch of examples if you want. i'm not sure why i'd have to though, considering that some of them are IN THIS THREAD YOU CONDESCENDING DINGBAT

[Scuba Steve]

I see you have avoided discussing the objective truth that the pain elemental sprites were a lazy afterthought.

[SleepyVelvet]

What makes the Pain Elemental a bad enemy is the 21 Lost Soul limit.  Once you remove that they become a good enemy.

[inkoalawetrust]

I don't think the Pain Elemental is poorly designed, but it certainly sucks, especially if you are playing in GZDoom and don't have the lost soul limit enabled, in part because they just shit out additional monsters nonstop, which nothing else does. But IMO that's not the part that makes them annoying.

 

 

The worst part is probably how large and tanky the lost souls they shit out in the first place are, not to mention their tendency to lock unto your face like laser guided missiles the moment you get the rocket launcher out. It's not even neccesarily that there's a demon that shits out more demons, after all, the Archvile kinda does that and it's nowhere near as annoying. It's that the demons it shits out are already absurdly durable for their appearance, not to mention that IMO they are too big too.

 

 

And no I don't think that an enemy being annoying is good, not in this really grating manner anyway, unless of course you'd also like a Cyberdemon that fires homing rockets (Ironically, that itself would be better depending on the environment), or a monster like the Archvile but that has a distance limit to its' instant damage attack instead of a sight limit, so you need to get as far away as possible to not die instead, mix that with a maze and it becomes a very annoying enemy indeed.

Edited December 28, 2023 by inkoalawetrust

[Individualised]

2 hours ago, Scuba Steve said:

I see you have avoided discussing the objective truth that the pain elemental sprites were a lazy afterthought.

Unlikely Their sprites were implemented into the game before its functionality. In early versions of Doom 2, the Pain Elemental object acts exactly like a Cacodemon except it's already set up to use the Pain Elemental sprites.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Individualised

[Cutman 999]

15 hours ago, roadworx said:

 they're a high priority target and a ticking time bomb, a role they play exceptionally well

No, not because they can be bullshit and top priority in many combat encounters, means they do this well at all. In a very close quarters fight, they can be outright be harmless since you can exploit in which they outright spawn lost souls. When you put it next to more enemies, yeah is optimal for you to prioritize them, but is not like they do something anyways, unless you got extremely unlucky an at the time you managed another monster, they just spawned a billion lost souls on your face.

 

Even long range, pain elementals are not threatening unless they got extremely out of control, because they may not even attack you by rng, they can try to infight monsters and do nothing more than potentially waste ammo. So in that sense, they aren't good even in the archvile sense of "if you don't kill this mf you die", no, for PEs aren't threatning at all, they just are assholes that can ballon in wrong situations.

 

This polarizing dynamic is why I think is poorly designed, they can be completely harmless or ammo sucking chores like barons can be, the difference is that at least barons are good at limiting your space and fucking you over, PEs depends extremely on how many numbers of them at once are in the arena, and by that point, every monster in the game is a massive threat, even zombieman.

15 hours ago, roadworx said:

it's hard to deal with, bla bla blibbity bla.

People don't see more than this reason to counter argument why people say PEs are bad, is the dynamics in fights they force, which doesn't have to do with its difficulty to face in fights. If we play by that logic, you could say revenants are 100% bad, and no one is that stupid to apply that to PEs.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

I think they're a decent enemy, but also one of the more flawed (or maybe "undercooked" is a better term) enemies in the game.

 

-The Lost Souls are the main issue. I don't have any new suggestions to add about how Lost Souls could be improved, but the point stands that I agree they could be improved.

 

-The PE is just a glorified spawning point for another enemy. This makes it unique, but for me it also makes it one of the more forgettable enemies in the game. It takes away from its personality.

 

-I don't like its design too much. It is charming for sure, like almost every enemy in DOOM, but I would have gone for something other than the "we have Cacodemon at home" design. It's a cute enemy, and since it has two arms it would make a perfect lover for the red two-holed meatball. And it needs a lover, because the poor bastard's arms are so short it can't reach its own two holes. I honestly think that giving it the same two holes as its lover is the worst part of its design - recycling parts of other sprites is understandable but it shouldn't be so obvious. Either way, I would have preferred a grittier design (DOOM64) at the very least. The enemy somewhat clashes with more sinister attempts at atmosphere. As I said, the PE is a very unique enemy in the game, but its copycat sprite betrays it and robs it of some memorability.

 

-When I kill enemies in DOOM, it's satisfying to watch them fall to the ground. The PE is not as satisfying to actually kill because you are simply waiting for the three Lost Souls to pop out. The Lost Souls would be more satisfying to kill if they would explode from one standard shotgun blast. The PE and his pets leave behind no evidence of their existence, their destruction lacks a certain impact. Also, if you look at the PE sprite sheet, its teeth seem to change size and position depending on the frame.

 

-Regardless of my complaints, it is a very important enemy and can be used very effectively... if the mapper knows what they're doing. When the PE is misused, it can fuck things up big time. Sure, the Archvile can be misused, but even an amateur mapper understands the concept of being behind cover to fight an enemy. Using the PE effectively requires more thought, more knowledge of the flow of combat, and more experience and talent in general. Therefore, it is misused very often when you're not looking at high-profile projects. And most displays of PE misuse are more egregious than most other examples of misused monsters. It is perhaps the best example of "any monster can be good as long as the mapper uses it intelligently". Most PE fights fall into two categories: they are either very poor or boring, or used with absolute care by someone who has a deeper knowledge of how combat works.

 

I certainly don't hate the enemy, but it's somewhere near the middle-bottom of my list. The only enemy I absolutely can't stand is the Spider Mastermind.

Edited December 29, 2023 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[HiMyNameIsChair]

TBH as annoying as they are, I do appreciate the role they play in the bestiary. Just like the archvile, they teach you how to assess high-priority targets. They also dissuade careless rocket usage and teach you when it's best to swap to other weapons. As a result, I often see them as the spicy meatballs (pun very intended) in Doom's tasty 4-course meal of monster design. Just like a Spicy meatball, they go great when paired with other monsters!    

 

But yeah, very annoying? absolutely! Still a necessary piece of Doom's gameplay puzzle? also yes!

 

Also, it's so satisfying to get up in their face, blocking them from spawning lost souls, and completely neutralizing them. 

[OpenRift]

I dunno, I don't think they're inherently a bad enemy, it's more about how they're used that can make them annoying to fight against sometimes.

[nicolas monti]

It's one of the best enemies, it's just regarded as bad because it's very annoying.

[baja blast rd.]

PE vs. RL in tight spaces <3

 

 

The "priorityness" of PEs is often quite overstated. If you have one or two PEs in a big open space, even the 20+ lost souls they spawn are mostly going to clump up in a big mass of souls that gets softened up even by their bad attempts at infighting. And it's not like you have to kill all those souls. Being too gentle with PE usage doesn't do a lot, so my preferred placement is "be very mean with them or don't use them at all." 

[Monocled]

The point of a game is to have fun not be annoyed so if an enemy is annoying its bad. An enemy can be difficult without being annoying.

[Xaser]

Pain Elementals are great. There's a couple of super-interesting risk/reward dynamics they add to a fight:

• Do you rush the PE straight away, risking your own life and limb, or do you let it hang back, potentially spawning more baddies you have to deal with later?
• Some players choose the "deal with it later" approach intentionally for the sake of provoking infighting, which opens up a new bag of fun tricks.
• The rocket launcher is simultaneously the most effective* and the most dangerous weapon to use against a PE and its minions. The splash damage works wonders at dispatching clouds of lost souls, but if you accidentally rocket a skull that was launched directly at your own, you're gonna have a bad time.
• You can completely neutralize a PE by getting right in its face, allowing for an easy kill, but you need to make a tactical retreat before it asplodes unless you wanna take some ouch to the face.

[*usually, anyway; the BFG is better if you've got a big crowd or the cells to spare, but that's true for most things with the BFG, 'cause it's the best. :P ]

Doom 2's bestiary in general is a fantastic set of tools that encourage players to stay on the move, and PEs function as a "lure", drawing the player deeper into the Danger Zone(tm). It's not wholly unique in that regard since Archviles can also check the same boxes, but for cases when an AV is a bit Much and you wanna force the player to rush forward, the PE is the tool for the job.

 

tl;dr: funny meebaw gud, use more

[elborbahquarama]

my favorite use of pain elemental is a room in level 9 of memento mori 2 ("sabbath sewer") that is just a big empty pool with one single pain elemental at the other end of it, he is so sweet just hiding there but also lonely it makes me sad, or maybe he is taking a bath and needs some privacy, who knows :o

[roadworx]

8 hours ago, Cutman 999 said:

stuff

i think that this entire post comes from a very deep misunderstanding of what a pain elemental's purpose is. i'm gonna go through this bit by bit to explain to you why everything you just said is silly

 

Quote

No, not because they can be bullshit and top priority in many combat encounters, means they do this well at all. In a very close quarters fight, they can be outright be harmless since you can exploit in which they outright spawn lost souls.

the reason that pain elementals are harmless when you're right up against them is because the part of the point of them is to draw the player in. if they were dangerous to you at close range, then the whole making-the-player-move-close-to-them thing would be thrown out the window and you'd have something more akin to the pinky, which is a niche that's already been filled.

 

Quote

When you put it next to more enemies, yeah is optimal for you to prioritize them, but is not like they do something anyways, unless you got extremely unlucky an at the time you managed another monster, they just spawned a billion lost souls on your face. 

well, if you'd like to take that chance every single time you do a fight and deal with the resulting loss of ammo and time, then be my guest :)

 

Quote

Even long range, pain elementals are not threatening unless they got extremely out of control, because they may not even attack you by rng, they can try to infight monsters and do nothing more than potentially waste ammo. So in that sense, they aren't good even in the archvile sense of "if you don't kill this mf you die", no, for PEs aren't threatning at all, they just are assholes that can ballon in wrong situations. 

in other words, they are in fact threatening. cuz, y'know, they're spawning more enemies that you'll have to deal with and will likely make a fight more difficult. and even if you don't consider that to be threatening, you'll still wanna prioritize them because of how annoying they can get when left alone, meaning that they're still highly effective in their role.

 

Quote

This polarizing dynamic is why I think is poorly designed, they can be completely harmless or ammo sucking chores like barons can be, the difference is that at least barons are good at limiting your space and fucking you over, PEs depends extremely on how many numbers of them at once are in the arena, and by that point, every monster in the game is a massive threat, even zombieman.

...what?

 

for one, pain elementals are actually better at limiting your space because they literally spawn in enemies that take up space. flying enemies no less, meaning that they can follow you around wherever and limit your space no matter where you try to run. barons are just big imps that throw projectiles, nothing more. honestly, saying that the baron of all things is better at that than the pe is just bizarre. do you not use complevels or something when playing doom?

 

secondly, any enemy can be harmless. even the arch-vile can be made non-threatening; it all depends on how the enemy is used. and you really don't need very many pain elementals to make them a priority target. as you said earlier: "When you put it next to more enemies, yeah is optimal for you to prioritize them".

 

third, and most importantly: not all enemies have to be immediately dangerous. the entire point of the pe is that the longer you leave it alive, the more enemies it's gonna spawn, and thus you should prioritize it to make sure that that doesn't happen. it's something you need to target first while avoiding the attacks of all of the surrounding enemies, and just because it doesn't launch some absurdly dangerous attack at you in the process doesn't mean that it's poorly designed.

 

hopefully this helped you understand why the pe isn't "poorly designed" like you seem to think it is