The psychology of "seeing the numbers"

[QuaketallicA]

On 12/29/2023 at 10:18 AM, MFG38 said:

Some of you probably remember stewboy's thread from a while back titled "Why I will no longer tag my secrets and why you shouldn't either", where the discussion revolved around the Doom community's seemingly dominant completionist mentality and, briefly, the adverse psychological effects that seeing a map's statistics in either the automap or an extended HUD of some kind can play on you. To that end, I was inspired to start this thread to pose some questions as to why the numbers matter in the first place.

 

Picture this: you're playing a wad that you've thoroughly enjoyed thus far. You exit the current map and enter the next. Upon the map being loaded, you glance down at the statistics provided by the extended HUD and witness a 4-digit monster count. That, along with the opening view, is your first impression of the map. What kind of reaction is that likely to evoke? What kind of image about the adventure ahead does that draw into your mind? Is it met with a sense of enthusiasm or one of dread?

 

For the more casual players among us, I'm willing to bet money that it's the latter. The question at that point, then, is whether you still give the map an honest attempt or skip it outright. Or pick the middle ground and IDDQD around to see what the map is like before deciding. Either way, the main question I want to ask with this thread is this: How does knowing the stats "beforehand" affect our experience of playing a map?

 

I'll openly admit that I'm guilty of having pressed the Tab button first thing upon entering a map many a time, if only because seeing a map's kill count gives me some sense of how long I can expect it to be. I've even had the extended HUD open in dsda-doom during entire megawad playthroughs. And I'll be entirely honest: it hasn't been good on me. While I'm far from a completionist, depending on the kill count, playing a map can still turn from a fun adventure to an absolute chore for me. Which is why, when I started playing Eviternity 2 recently, I decided to turn off the extended HUD and even hide the stats on the automap.

 

And you know what? The effect of not seeing the statistics - of not knowing how much is left kills-wise in particular - has been nothing but positive. Granted, Eviternity 2 in itself is all sorts of awesome, but the important thing is that because I never "see the numbers" until the intermission screen, I haven't been psychologically affected by the initial scare of a map's monster count. If anything, I've been enthusiastic about experiencing each and every map when I don't have to actively worry about how much resistance still remains. But much to my own dismay, it feels like I represent the minority.

 

It seems to be a particularly popular mentality in the content creator space that you haven't gotten the "full experience" of a map, if you will, unless you UV-Max it, which I honestly lack the brain capacity to comprehend. Not to mention that because of that mentality, the classic Doom side of content creation has been homogenized to the point of no one standing out because everyone plays in the same way. Very rarely in this day and age do you see someone playing on a difficulty that isn't UV, only killing the monsters and finding the secrets that they naturally do without keeping an eye on the statistics. Anyway, that's another discussion entirely.

 

On the other hand, there is a benefit to having the stats visible if 100% completion of a map is your ultimate goal - with the extended HUD, you always know how much you have left to go. But if you want a more casual and exploratory experience without the pressure of the numbers, the obvious choice is to hide them.

 

At any rate, the questions I ultimately want to pose with this thread are as follows: To what extent does seeing the kill count at the start of a map matter? What are the psychological benefits and/or drawbacks? What kinds of positive and/or negative preconceptions do we create in our heads based on that information?

 

I hate to break it to you, but Youtubers-- "content creators" or whatever euphemism they like to call themselves--don't actually represent ordinary people. I didn't go to a poll booth and vote for my esteemed Doomer representative online.

 

The only thing that will turn me on or off from a wad I've already downloaded is whether or not it's good. The very fact that I chose to download it at all in the first place implies I saw something intriguing or cool that was appealing. All that remains is whether or not that feeling holds up while playing.

 

I wouldn't immediately go to the stats upon starting a map, but you invariably do notice it while checking the automap every now and again. A high player count could indicate a long map, but it more than likely indicates a slaughter map, particularly if it's going into the 1000's. Slaughter maps aren't totally my style--I'm of the opinion that less can definitely be more (E4M1 anybody? Or any of the late game Sigil 1 maps) but that said I do still enjoy some slaughter if it's not too utterly punishing.

 

If you're playing the games too competitively, you're doing it wrong. Unless you're a pro and you enjoy that sort of thing, then more power to you. But if you find it mentally exhausting or feel inferior just because you didn't live up to somebody else's entirely arbitrary standard, then screw that. That's unnecessary. Just do it whatever way feels most natural and fun to you.

 

On a side note, I have noticed some more modern games like to omit key statistics. For example, past Call of Duty and Battlefield games always used to show you your Kills, Deaths, etc. on the scoreboard, but the most recent entries tend to hide these numbers. I think it's really stupid. It doesn't make noobs with bad K/Ds feel better. I know when I suck at the game, and I still like to know precisely, quantitatively the degree to which I suck. Turning off the stats to make gamers feel better is like breaking your speedometer so you don't feel bad about speeding. 

 

 

[Hebonky]

I try to get 100% kills a minimum, mostly because I want to experience all combat, and I like to purge a map of it's secrets to see if there is some extra stuff that I missed, but man, loading into a map and seeing double digit secrets, and quad digit kills is just demoralizing.

[Devalaous]

 

 

Thankfully my chosen stat counter UI has an option to show percentages instead

[Maximum Matt]

Sounds like y'all need to play more Vanilla Doom - you're starting to run out of things to bitch about

[MFG38]

7 hours ago, Aeddes666 said:

What if a mapper removes the item/monster count and secret tags from a map?

Will people hate this?

 

The UV-Maxers will. :D

 

That would be a fun experiment, though.

[RHhe82]

I'm a bit on the fence here. When the original debacle regarding Decino's AA stream occured, I switched the ext-HUD off and found it invigorating. Nowadays I use DSDA's fresh feature of hiding only the totals until they are reached (in blind playthroughs). This way I see the numbers rack up, but retain the excitement of not knowing exactly how many enemies there are.

 

That said, I don't think seeing the total tallies from the get-go impacted me negatively. I don't think I've ever turned down a map because the monster count is high. On the contrary, even when I was even more novice player than I'm now, big monster counts excited me, if anything. I guess it's a different sort of excitement; not knowing what's to come, and knowing.

 

16 minutes ago, MFG38 said:

 

The UV-Maxers will. :D

 

That would be a fun experiment, though.

 

I'm not so sure. Maps already commonly have untagged secrets, and lost souls don't count for kills, and yet we don't see prominent content creators throw temper tantrums trying to hunt down lost souls trapped outside map boundaries and trying to reach some obscure non-tagged secret. For instance, I don't remember Decino going for the non-secret invuln sphere hidden away in Sigil 2's map 7, near the cyberdemon, and I don't think he's losing any sleep over that.

[Aeddes666]

14 minutes ago, RHhe82 said:

I'm not so sure. Maps already commonly have untagged secrets, and lost souls don't count for kills, and yet we don't see prominent content creators throw temper tantrums trying to hunt down lost souls trapped outside map boundaries and trying to reach some obscure non-tagged secret. For instance, I don't remember Decino going for the non-secret invuln sphere hidden away in Sigil 2's map 7, near the cyberdemon, and I don't think he's losing any sleep over that.

One or two secrets ok, but if all things are set to "no completion count"? This way, when open a map, everything will be "0".

Also, i updated my last map to this and i'm curious on the people reaction.

[RHhe82]

13 minutes ago, Aeddes666 said:

One or two secrets ok, but if all things are set to "no completion count"? This way, when open a map, everything will be "0".

Also, i updated my last map to this and i'm curious on the people reaction.

I guess we’ll just have to see. I assume people care less than expected, and that ”nothing counts” turns the map into ”just reach the exit”. Maybe people will try to kill as many monsters as they see and can.

 

(Looking at this way, I feel stats are, in a way, more important than actual demon clean-up; I don’t think ”nothing counts” would bother me, but placing unreachable monsters or denying the resources to take care of everyone would, and has bothered).

[Shepardus]

For what it's worth, Batman Doom makes all of its enemies not count as monsters (the reason I've heard is so they don't respawn on nightmare difficulty), so UV Max isn't really a thing with it, which I find disappointing.

[Aeddes666]

4 minutes ago, Shepardus said:

the reason I've heard is so they don't respawn on nightmare difficulty

No idea how things work in Nightmare, but I have set my map this way and they keep spawning.