what would be your ideal "Modern AAA Doom" mechanics wise?

[fruity lerlups]

Im sure this question has been asked before, but Im curious as to, if you were say, creative director of the next id DooM title, what would be ur mechanical philosphy for the game. What would it emphasize, what would you take from pervious titles, what would you like to see left in the past?

I was thinking about this in the shower and i think ive summarized my ideas in a few core tenents:

 

Mechanical Minimalism - the less buttons and macros to do the stuff you need, the better, for example. Id ditch equipment button, dash, any skilltrees or leveling up stats or upgrades, no weapon mods, no PDAs or any of that, and basically simplify these concepts, e.g.

Ice Bomb, Grenades and Flame Belch are secondary attacks for say Plasma, Shotgun and Chaingun now. Enhanced movement is achieved through the Meathook and rocket jumping and gauss boosting, etc. Pick up a backpack/satchel for increased ammo.

 

Push-Forward Lite(tm) - The mapper/designer should never be in a position where they cannot restrict the kinds of resources they want the player to have, BUT, the player should always have some way to recover health and ammo if it isnt available on the map. I'd "keep" glory kills though i'd prob remove the canned animation thing, just make it if you finish an enemy with melee, they drop health, and obvs no blood punch. There would be no "regenerating equipment" at all, no free chainsaw pip, grenade, icebomb, flame belch, etc. all of these would have to be picked up or gathered in some way, using either their own resource pool or the ammo of their respective weapon. Id repurpose the "weakpoint" mechanic into a new push-forward mechanic where destroying weakpoints grants certainly ammo, e.g. shooting the archnotrons cannon gives you plasma, headshotting shotgunners gives you shells. I'd also change the way the "chainsaw" works. Also, there should NEVER be an invulnerability frame except if you literally grab an invuln sphere (which is why no canned GK animations and the chainsaw needs to change).

 

Exploration rewards progression, not funko pops - Secrets should give you resources, early access to weapons, optional fights and access to additional content (like secret levels), not little funko pops, that simple. I dont mind linear progression and I think Doom 2016's level design struck a nice balance of linear and non linear design.

 

The given power-trip - Enhanced mobility should be something that the mapper gives to the player, Meathook should be limited use for example, you should be given the time to use rockets and plasma instead of always having it, and you shouldnt always be able to recover or escape when you make a mistake. Any push-forward stuff should be based off of capitalizing on a moment, e.g. flamebelchijg and icebomb rewards using it on a hoard of enemies, the GK is rewarded by finding the opportunity to grt in close and melee, etc.

 

Escalation - I actually like the way 2016 and Eternal use their arenas to escalate, but dislike the overuse of teleporting enemies and static arenas. I think a combination of arenas with evolving geometry that reveals more areas and enemies, incidental encounters, etc. and the occasional "ok a cyberdemon teleports here now" would create interesting and memorable encounters. Also in regards to combat design, a more generous enemy limit, 100 enemies on screen at a time for large slaughtery arenas please.

 

And as an added note for an actual "weapon/enemy/mechanic" proposal, I despise every instance of the chainsaw ever except doom 3's.. and it got me thinking, why not take a little influence from a weapon from Doom 3, the soulcube, to actually make a chainsaw type ammo weapon that isn't miserable;

The Sawgun - Gun that shoots sawblades that give ammo when it kills stuff, it bounces around and goes through enemies when it kills them so you can capitalize on it by using it on larger crowds to get more ammo. When you use it on a tougher enemy with more health, the blade starts spinning and digging into the enemy, stunlocking it, allowing you to execute DPS. Sometimes you get flushed with sawblades and just let hilarious carnage of dozens of enemies being split in half and pinatas of ammo flying out of them.

 

Anyway delete if wrong forum

[ApprihensivSoul]

Oh, that's a fun one I thought alot about, but haven't seen talked about.

Easy answer, that I could go so far into. Here's the short version:

Far Cry 1/Crysis 1 with Doom Eternal gunplay, splash of Blood.

Large, sandboxy levels full structured around well-disguised arenas that you can approach in a variety of ways, lots of opportunity for resource scavenging, threats you're expected/encouraged, but not forced, to run from if you're not ready, and a dynamic, arcadey combat philosophy that moves very quickly and punishes error harshly but has a more or less infinite ceiling for combining/stringing tactics together provided the player's got the creativity and reflexes to exploit them. 

Lots of interactive features in levels, both in the form of destruction physics or irrelevant toys in the vein of D3, such as shooting lights out, blowing out windows or sections of wall to progress, or playing with computer screens or basket balls/dismembered heads.

[fruity lerlups]

29 minutes ago, ApprihensivSoul said:

Oh, that's a fun one I thought alot about, but haven't seen talked about.

Easy answer, that I could go so far into. Here's the short version:

Far Cry 1/Crysis 1 with Doom Eternal gunplay, splash of Blood.

Large, sandboxy levels full structured around well-disguised arenas that you can approach in a variety of ways, lots of opportunity for resource scavenging, threats you're expected/encouraged, but not forced, to run from if you're not ready, and a dynamic, arcadey combat philosophy that moves very quickly and punishes error harshly but has a more or less infinite ceiling for combining/stringing tactics together provided the player's got the creativity and reflexes to exploit them. 

Lots of interactive features in levels, both in the form of destruction physics or irrelevant toys in the vein of D3, such as shooting lights out, blowing out windows or sections of wall to progress, or playing with computer screens or basket balls/dismembered heads.

 

not my cup of tea but it is interesting to see what other people imagine as "the ideal evolution of the franchise"

[Gifty]

Doom 2016 with zero changes 

[fruity lerlups]

Just now, Gifty said:

Doom 2016 with zero changes 

you think its perfect? theres no mechanics youd change?

[yakfak]

i would uh have doomguy take a role as an insurance inspector, visit a mysterious ghost ship and investigate its crew roster using a special pocketwatch

 

i can't play modern FPSes with their gore and their upgrade trees and their self-important lore, just gimme an actual RPG or puzzle game if you want me to visit the menus

[Deadwing]

Less of exploration -> battle -> exploration, instead everything together like in the classics.

Actual non linearity and exploration as well.

[fruity lerlups]

27 minutes ago, yakfak said:

 

 

i can't play modern FPSes with their gore and their upgrade trees and their self-important lore, just gimme an actual RPG or puzzle game if you want me to visit the menus

so much this, the gore is fine but im playing a freaking FPS, not a bloody rpg, no skill trees 

[Wo0p]

Doom 3 but with a higher number of enemies per encounter, less "jumpscare" monster closets and a FUCKING FUNCTIONAL SHOTGUN HOW CAN YOU MESS THAT U-,lsfækæligæljso4......... ahem.

 

Sorry. And while I don't like the revamped designs of the enemies aside from Hellknights in Doom 3 this isn't a discussion on aesthethics (but if I could sneak that in there anyway) Doom Eternal's monster designs (Behaviour not included).

 

Oh and Doom 1/2's persistent corpses. That always bothered me even though I understand why they had to make corpses disappear.

Edited January 6, 2024 by Wo0p

[Novaseer]

Doom Eternal mechanics with mostly Doom II enemies.

 

Whilst enemies like the Mancubus work perfectly fine in their modern variations, what they did to Revenants is saddening, to say the least, and I feel like their classic design would work surprisingly well in modern Doom. That, and simpler enemy AI would allow more enemies on screen.

 

(Also, I want to shit myself when I see a Cyberdemon/Tyrant instead of thinking "oh boy, time to shoot a wall for 12 seconds!")

 

And as for level design, I'm inclined to agree with Deadwing. Whilst setpiece encounters are cool and definitely staples of classic WADs as well as the modern games, more incidental encounters that flow together would absolutely help the feel of the game.

 

As much as I like Doom Eternal, removing the Gore Nests didn't actually do much to stop Doom 2016's Gore Nest gameplay loop.

Edited January 6, 2024 by Novaseer

[fruity lerlups]

40 minutes ago, Novaseer said:

(Also, I want to shit myself when I see a Cyberdemon/Tyrant instead of thinking "oh boy, time to shoot a wall for 12 seconds!")

its kinda weird how the Cyberdemon could 1 hit you in classic doom but there is virtually no enemy that can one hit you in Eternal, especially the Cyberdemon being an absolute wimp

I didnt want to get into enemy design or weapons specifically, but Eternal is weird to me in that all of the new enemies they added are really awesome to fight, but the classics are all depressing in some way, e.g. Like the carcass, whiplash and marauder feel fun and impactful, but like.. the archville.. the tyrant.. the revenant.. LOOK AT HOW THEY MASSACRED MY BOY.

 

Id def keep the carcass, whiplash and marauder tbh, they feel as iconic to me as the o.g.s

[DNSKILL5]

I just want them to make a new Quake at this point. 

[fruity lerlups]

25 minutes ago, DNSKILL5 said:

I just want them to make a new Quake at this point. 

i dont think you want them to do that tbh, i think id has the attitude that the stuff that made their earlier shooters great like resourfe management, exploration, etc. make it "inaccessible"..

 

its ironic because the current generation plays Battle Royales and Extraction Shooters, you think they dont like exploration and looting resources? But yeah, i dont trust them to make games i like at this point.

[fruity lerlups]

earlier today i played doom eternal trying to have an open mind about it again but it just felt miserable.

[LadyMistDragon]

Yeah, it would be cool to see something not unlike Red Faction: Guerilla but with faster-paced gameplay, environmental hazards and maybe an AI companion or two.

[The Doommer]

8 hours ago, Wo0p said:

Oh and Doom 1/2's persistent corpses.

This 400 times.

It's always bothered me that the classics were the only one that had this.

 

8 hours ago, Novaseer said:

(Also, I want to shit myself when I see a Cyberdemon/Tyrant instead of thinking "oh boy, time to shoot a wall for 12 seconds!")

I mean tbf the Cyberdemon was never the "make you shit yourself" boss after E2M8

Like all the other times you meet him you already have a fully loaded BFG

But I also get this

 

That being said, I suppose more of the Doom-style puzzles we had in the classics

[Novaseer]

20 minutes ago, The Doommer said:

I mean tbf the Cyberdemon was never the "make you shit yourself" boss after E2M8

E4M6.

 

That, and its excellent use in community WADs.

[The Doommer]

Just now, Novaseer said:

E4M6

OK that's fair enough

I forgot about that one

 

Yeah whoever designed that map (I believe it was Romero) did a 100/10 job

[fruity lerlups]

12 hours ago, Wo0p said:

 

Oh and Doom 1/2's persistent corpses. That always bothered me even though I understand why they had to make corpses disappear.

it cant be that hard to keep persistent corpses, they could definitely do some workarounds to make it less cpu intensive, have a corpse limit and store data about corpses that arent rendered somewhere. Youl could bring back the old archville and have it resurrect emonds, have some flags to ensure like corpses within 50 metres of the archville dont dissappear, etc. etc.

[roadworx]

probably just quake 2 tbh. that game feels very much like doom, but expanded. definitely without the original campaign's shitty level design tho, gimme them machine games maps. other than that, there's not really much more that i want. honestly, when i played doom eternal, i rarely ever used any of the extra abilities outside the ones that gave me resources, so i don't think that adding a bunch of fancy gadgets will do much when i'm not gonna remember that they exist to begin with.

 

even despite that, however, nothing that a modern aaa studio could make could be as good as the stuff the community regularly produces, so it's a bit of a futile effort imo.

[Lucius Wooding]

I'd just make sure it's playable on lower end cards, same engine as the others with no raytracing. That was one thing they deserved top marks for IMO. They should also make the first episode shareware like the original Doom, that'd be amazing. That, and make some actual new environments and make it weird. A sense of humor would be good too. A game like Doom is completely insufferable if it's even 80% serious. Finally, they should allow for every existing custom WAD to be loaded up and played in the new engine, and let people go nuts even if it's impractical. But the devs aren't going to be reading this thread, nor serving the hardcore fanbase. It's much more likely they'll release the game sooner than later, and target the mainstream Doom fan and make it as commercially oriented as possible.

 

However I think the direction of the recent Doom games has been into an overengineered mess of game mechanics. You essentially fight very few enemies at a time and have access to any resource you want by killing the piñatas in different manners. It's a philosophy a lot like the original RE4 in some ways, the game enforces player forgiveness too much and you can bully the enemies once you learn their patterns. I think the notion that "the player should always have some sort of dodge or parry at all times or else it's cheap and unfair" is completely stupid, honestly. It totally blunts the crowd control and resource management side of things and as long as you make use of abilities and switch weapons properly you win.

 

When the enemies are threatening and you're struggling, this can make for a good experience. But basically you're carried through the game by the game. A blind playthrough can be like a horror or gritty action feel, but you can pick it apart eventually even if cranking the difficulty makes mistakes more punishing. I think many modern games suffer from trying to give the player a clear answer to every situation the game can pose. Sometimes leaving it a bit messy can be a lot more engaging.

 

Spoiler

I also am completely over "AAA games" as a selling point. That term is used for mainstream games with big budgets; I've been playing games for almost 3 decades and I'm extremely bored with the mainstream. Half the posts in this thread are bound to be a collection of popular buzzwords more than anything else.

 

Am I so out of touch? No; it's the children who are wrong.

 

Anyway, I really don't think they should bother trying to milk the franchise so much. The original was a technical achievement and extremely popular, but a big part of its charm was in the limitations, rough edges, and cheesiness of it. It's already been copied to death by basically every FPS title and even a lot of other genres since it came out 30 years ago. Just look at how fucking tired of the genre everyone was when Doom 3 came out (after so many good FPS titles arguably influenced by Doom and Quake had already made their mark); it took over a decade for the fatigue to wear off enough to make another game. And even then it doesn't necessarily stand out like it did because the original was so influential on the rest of the market. Honestly the original Doom stands out more from modern games than 2016 or Eternal, and not just because of the graphics.

 

It's like a cult classic horror movie from the 70s or something; you can't replicate the soul of it and trying to improve on it by spending more on production isn't meaningful; fans will still like the original because it has that essential charm. But the producers like sequels because it's pretty much guaranteed money. So of course they'll pump out new ones every 4 years or so with DLC in between, for as long as the market will bear it. It's frustrating to me that the next Doom type phenomenon could be going unnoticed and unfunded by a struggling indie developer, and that fan projects and mods often exhibit much more passion and hard work than the franchises that inspired them. Inspiration is really the key thing, no amount of resources or even talent can replace it. 

 

I wish the game industry would make a real effort to put passion into every game, and reward projects that take risks or are executed superbly well or are just undeniably fun, while giving new titles a chance and learning to appreciate diverse genres and not get hung up on popularity, aesthetics, or minor flaws that give it character. And fans shouldn't automatically create a ton of hype and have their wallets ready for any big release, but instead have some healthy skepticism and explore and support a variety of games based on their unique tastes.

 

[fruity lerlups]

30 minutes ago, Lucius Wooding said:

. I think the notion that "the player should always have some sort of dodge or parry at all times or else it's cheap and unfair" is completely stupid, honestly. It totally blunts the crowd control and resource management side of things and as long as you make use of abilities and switch weapons properly you win.

 

When the enemies are threatening and you're struggling, this can make for a good experience. But basically you're carried through the game by the game. I think many modern games suffer from trying to give the player a clear answer to every situation the game can pose. Sometimes leaving it a bit messy can be a lot more engaging.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I also am completely over "AAA games" as a selling point. That term is used for mainstream games with big budgets; I've been playing games for almost 3 decades and I'm extremely bored with the mainstream. Half the posts in this thread are bound to be a collection of popular buzzwords more than anything else.

 

Am I so out of touch? No; it's the children who are wrong.

 

Anyway, I really don't think they should bother trying to milk the franchise so much. The original was a technical achievement and extremely popular, but a big part of its charm was in the limitations, rough edges, and cheesiness of it. It's already been copied to death by basically every FPS title and even a lot of other genres since it came out 30 years ago. Just look at how fucking tired of the genre everyone was when Doom 3 came out (after so many good FPS titles arguably influenced by Doom and Quake had already made their mark); it took over a decade for the fatigue to wear off enough to make another game. And even then it doesn't necessarily stand out like it did because the original was so influential on the rest of the market. Honestly the original Doom stands out more from modern games than 2016 or Eternal, and not just because of the graphics.

 

It's like a cult classic horror movie from the 70s or something; you can't replicate the soul of it and trying to improve on it by spending more on production isn't meaningful; fans will still like the original because it has that essential charm. But the producers like sequels because it's pretty much guaranteed money. So of course they'll pump out new ones every 4 years or so with DLC in between, for as long as the market will bear it. It's frustrating to me that the next Doom type phenomenon could be going unnoticed and unfunded by a struggling indie developer, and that fan projects and mods often exhibit much more passion and hard work than the franchises that inspired them. Inspiration is really the key thing, no amount of resources or even talent can replace it. 

 

I wish the game industry would make a real effort to put passion into every game, and reward projects that take risks or are executed superbly well or are just undeniably fun, while giving new titles a chance and learning to appreciate diverse genres and not get hung up on popularity, aesthetics, or minor flaws that give it character. And fans shouldn't automatically create a ton of hype and have their wallets ready for any big release, but instead have some healthy skepticism and explore and support a variety of games based on their unique tastes.

 

100%, this is everything i hate about DooM Eternal, there really is never a "mistake", you can always escape, you can always recover, enemies can never checkmate you. It makes the game reactive rather than strategic, almost like an overglorified twitch shooter. And this isn't even just because of "push-forward" The Halos had regenerating health in one way or another but the enemy design, slow tactical movement and map layouts meant you had to be intentional with movement or you could get checkmated, you could get tossed around by brute melees, sworded by an elite, or eviscerated by some grunts carrying needlers, sniped out by jackals, etc. You could always make a "wrong step". Theres never a situation like that in DooM Eternal.

 

This is why my id like a "push forward" lite type approach, gathering resources from enemies should always be cost-benefit/risk-reward, glory kill shouldnt give you an invincibility frame so you have to make sure its safe to get up close and melee the enemy, ice bomb and chainsaw and stuff should be like using a resource to trade for another resource and shouldnt regenerate, which is why I thought of the sawgun idea, you have a powerful weapon that can be used in creative manners and contexts, slicing up large crowds, stunlocking a heavy or using it on a heavily weakened heavy to turn it into a pinata as well.

Edited January 7, 2024 by fruity lerlups

[Koko Ricky]

I find myself wanting to see something between the heavy interaction and survival horror of Doom 3; the sinister vibes of PS1/N64 Doom, and the exploratory approach of OG Doom. id Software has taken the arena/heavy combat approach to its limit, in addition to pushing the series a bit too much into cartoon territory. I want dark ambient music, open level design, a straightforward plot, a simple weapon upgrade/alternate fire system, and an emphasis on environmental destruction. 

[ApprihensivSoul]

This is a pretty good suggestion actually. Or kind of a mesh of Q1 and Q2 ideas. Like Q1 more dungeon crawl-esque level design, with version of Quake 2's combat and environment interaction that's slightly faster paced.

 

3 hours ago, roadworx said:

probably just quake 2 tbh. that game feels very much like doom, but expanded. definitely without the original campaign's shitty level design tho, gimme them machine games maps. other than that, there's not really much more that i want. honestly, when i played doom eternal, i rarely ever used any of the extra abilities outside the ones that gave me resources, so i don't think that adding a bunch of fancy gadgets will do much when i'm not gonna remember that they exist to begin with.

 

 

[fruity lerlups]

31 minutes ago, Koko Ricky said:

I find myself wanting to see something between the heavy interaction and survival horror of Doom 3; the sinister vibes of PS1/N64 Doom, and the exploratory approach of OG Doom. id Software has taken the arena/heavy combat approach to its limit, in addition to pushing the series a bit too much into cartoon territory. I want dark ambient music, open level design, a straightforward plot, a simple weapon upgrade/alternate fire system, and an emphasis on environmental destruction. 

hmm I wouldn't mind the doom 3 soft-imsim stuff in it too, and environmental destruction would really elevate the level, you could have cool secrets like, you dont have explosives to access a bfg that is hidden in some room with like bulletproof door, and you trick the cyberdemon into shooting the door to let you grab it.
obvsly this isnt so much about tone and aesthetic but i concur i don't like the cartoony tone of Eternal, for me I think I'd like something that melds that sorta "man on a mission" industrial intensity of 2016 with the body horror imagery of doom 3 and n64's sinisterness. Less survival horror but more adrenaline horror, like doom 3 except instead of "you've gotta survive" now its "you've got a mission to do". Music wise as well i'd personally enjoy something noisey kinda grindcore stuff like Transistor Fist and Skullhacker from 2016, that was the direction i was hoping Eternal's music would go in, but I think its ok to have like 1 or 2 power fantasy tracks like TOTTFIY

[The Doommer]

9 hours ago, fruity lerlups said:

enemies can never checkmate you.

On UV they absolutely can tho.

Especially when you get a Maurader + another close combat monster thrown at you

 

9 hours ago, fruity lerlups said:

glory kill shouldnt give you an invincibility frame

I mean while I agree with this, tbf, if you remove this invincibility frame there will be lots of jank

 

9 hours ago, fruity lerlups said:

shouldnt regenerate

I mean the grenades aren't too strong except maybe the ice bomb

[fruity lerlups]

26 minutes ago, The Doommer said:

On UV they absolutely can tho.

Especially when you get a Maurader + another close combat monster thrown at you

 

I mean while I agree with this, tbf, if you remove this invincibility frame there will be lots of jank

ive ultra nightmared TAG 1 lol. I only remember when i'd play Community Modded maps when there would be cbt situations with 10 whiplashes and 4 marauders in a closed space would u ever feel checkmated, but for the most part no. Ive got Doom eternal gameplay vids on my channel if you want to judge how good i was at the game.

 

also wrt to the glory kills... just have no canned animation. If i punch something and it dies, i get health, that simple, no silly little animation of me giving the baron of hell a reach around and cuddling in bed while smoking a cigarette

Edited January 7, 2024 by fruity lerlups

[The Doommer]

1 hour ago, fruity lerlups said:

if you want to judge how good i was at the game.

I didn't intend to question you being good at the game (btw nice job on the UN, I would never have the patience)

I was just saying there are situations where it happens

 

I remember one specific encounter with a Maurader + Whiplash that really did annoy me

 

1 hour ago, fruity lerlups said:

no silly little animation of me giving the baron of hell a reach around and cuddling in bed while smoking a cigarette

Oh come on glory kills, with all their flaws, are epic-looking

Edited January 7, 2024 by The Doommer

[fruity lerlups]

Just now, The Doommer said:

 

Oh come on glory kills, with all their flaws, are epic-looking

i do like them when theyre smooth, they felt more smooth and flowing in Doom 2016 imo, i also miss the context sensitive glory kills where youd smash their face into a wall or kick them over a ledge, it made it feel less canned. Eternal's get kinds exhausing to look at.. except 1.. https://youtu.be/-2VHsGKZkew?si=auzTSNtixGVkiLDF 0:29

[The Doommer]

31 minutes ago, fruity lerlups said:

0:29

And the Zombie head bonk, that never gets old