What would Doom 2 be like if Tom Hall stayed and made maps?

[Grungo]

Me wonder, what doom 2 be like if tom hall stayed and made maps, and me at first would understand most maps would never made, due to butterfly effect, but what is your thoughts?

[Kappes Buur]

Most likely different.

As to how different, well, let your imagination fly with speculations.

Edited January 8, 2024 by Kappes Buur

[roadworx]

29 minutes ago, Kappes Buur said:

Most likely different.

As to how different, well, let your imagination fly with speculations.

amazing post as usual, kappes buur. you've really added so much to the thread.

 

anyways, to op: we actually do have an idea of what it'd be like. many of the e2 maps were based off of his maps but modified by sandy, so look to those and stuff like map10 of doom 2 if you're wondering.

[LVENdead]

Very square

[Noiser]

There is at least one level in Doom 2 made by Tom Hall, which is MAP10 (Refueling Base). Of course, it's a map from the early days of Doom 1 repurposed by Sandy, but you can have some idea from there.

EDIT: Oh, my bad.. roadworx answered the same

Edited January 8, 2024 by Noiser

[Wadmodder Shalton]

A completely different low-budget game.

[JoJo_BadDoom]

Square and kinda boring, I reckon

[Andromeda]

[Jayextee]

We'd have a fraction of the verticality because Tom seemed to still be making Wolfenstein maps.

[Rudolph]

"Doom II: The Way Tom Hall Would Have Done" actually sounds like an awesome idea for a community project!

 

^{So long as it is Doom 1-era Tom Hall and not Rise of the Triad-era Tom Hall, that is...}

 

 

[Individualised]

Had Tom Hall stayed on the Doom team, we would have seen a game much closer to what was detailed in the Doom Bible. As a result development time would have probably been extended. While the Doom Bible does detail plans for a retail expansion (which ended up becoming Doom 2 as a full game), I feel like if this had happened, the prolonged development time of Doom would have meant that any such retail product would have never materialised, and id would have started working on their next game instead.

[OniriA]

Grungo should go back in time, convince Tom Hall, then Grungo will find out answer and report back here in this topic.

Edited January 9, 2024 by OniriA

[Murdoch]

I think the better question is, what would have happened if John Carmack had not crossed over into our dimension? Where would we be then?

[dasho]

Did somebody make a hallway joke yet

[Grungo]

2 hours ago, Rudolph said:

"Doom II: The Way Tom Hall Would Have Done" actually sounds like an awesome idea for a community project!

 

^{So long as it is Doom 1-era Tom Hall and not Rise of the Triad-era Tom Hall, that is...}

 

 

Hmmm... seems easy to capitalize on... Although grungo is too busy for such ideas, Grungo hopes this gets put use

[Grungo]

46 minutes ago, OniriA said:

Grungo should go back in time, convince Tom Hall, then Grungo will find out answer and report back here in this topic.

Doc Brown told me not to mess up space time continuum

[Doomkid]

Sandy editing Tom's maps is a perfect example of a whole that's greater than the sum of its parts. Tom Hall's rigidly realistic and square level designs needed some zany spice, and Sandy's slapdash nature is conversely reeled in appropriately if it he works from a somewhat bland but highly functional layout, like those Tom made.

[Grungo]

15 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Sandy editing Tom's maps is a perfect example of a whole that's greater than the sum of its parts. Tom Hall's rigidly realistic and square level designs needed some zany spice, and Sandy's slapdash nature is conversely reeled in appropriately if it he works from a somewhat bland but highly functional layout, like those Tom made.

tbh they are good duo, even if they didn't agree with each other maybe

[Faceman2000]

I feel it’s safe to assume Tom’s Doom 2 maps had he stayed aboard would’ve been radically different from his work in the Doom alphas. Sandy and Romero’s style clearly evolved and shifted from Doom to Doom II as they gained experience and played off each other’s ideas. Tom would’ve likely done so too, given the chance.

[esselfortium]

2 hours ago, Faceman2000 said:

I feel it’s safe to assume Tom’s Doom 2 maps had he stayed aboard would’ve been radically different from his work in the Doom alphas. Sandy and Romero’s style clearly evolved and shifted from Doom to Doom II as they gained experience and played off each other’s ideas. Tom would’ve likely done so too, given the chance.

For sure. Even E1M4 was a significant evolution from Hall's earlier levels, which had been created for earlier versions of the engine that was less capable than what we ended up with.

 

You also have to remember that at the time, there was no "common knowledge" for designing levels for a game like this, it was completely uncharted territory for everyone involved. Sure, Romero was the first to push the early Doom engine beyond its original intended limits, but I think there's enough evidence that Hall's designs were starting to evolve as new possibilities presented themselves more clearly.

[mrthejoshmon]

You know how we shit on Sandy maps?

 

He'd probably be catching a bit of a break.

[Maximum Matt]

The Phobos/Deimos bases would be waaaay more realistic and interactive, and the game would have set missions, clearer storyline and NPCs.  

[ClumsyCryptid]

10 hours ago, Rudolph said:

"Doom II: The Way Tom Hall Would Have Done" actually sounds like an awesome idea for a community project!

 

^{So long as it is Doom 1-era Tom Hall and not Rise of the Triad-era Tom Hall, that is...}

 

 

That is going to be a very flat community project, but I'd play it.

[Rykzeon]

 

10 hours ago, Rudolph said:

"Doom II: The Way Tom Hall Would Have Done" actually sounds like an awesome idea for a community project!

 

^{So long as it is Doom 1-era Tom Hall and not Rise of the Triad-era Tom Hall, that is...}

 

 

Alternative title: "Doom II: City Maps look like a City Map instead of a reused map that has city textures slapped in"


Also we might get map script and cinematics/cutscene/something like HL1 intro, more linedef actions, hubs and inter-connected maps, realistic-looking maps for Tom Hall's standard, or even something blend of Hexen and Duke Nukem/Blood/HL if Tom Hall pushing features and his envisions .

TBH, Blood is better at making realistic city levels. Maybe just slap Doom weapons and story into Blood and make excuse story like "The Sinful Evil Dark God Tchernobog and His minions has invaded Phobos and Deimos with our inter-dimensional portal and learned to use our technology to their advantage and now we send Doomguy to close the portal. Doomguy slain all those piece of meal minions and now facing The Sinful Evil Dark God Tchernobog. Turns out, The Sinful Evil Dark God Tchernobog intentionally let Doomguy to kill His minions, because He knew that when Doomguy killing His minions, Doomguy has becoming stronger and stronger, and The Sinful Evil Dark God Tchernobog has found the sacrifice He needed to torn apart the fabrics between Hell and Our Realm."

^{<-- Image of The Sinful Evil Dark God Tchernobogm, incase it doesn't load}

Edited January 9, 2024 by Rykz
Add The Sinful Evil Dark God Tchernobog image

[The Royal We]

After Tom Hall left id Software, hiring Petersen gave Doom a great makeover, both in the aesthetic and narrative sense. The game has very much set aside the militarized aura based on the movie Alien and has taken on a cosmic horror feel. A Lovecraft fanatic and aware of the game's technical limitations, Petersen still gave the game a very narrative tone, even without the use of cutscenes or supporting text (as Tom Hall wanted). 

 

Lovecraftian horror lies in what is not seen, in the indescriptive, so Petersen used and abused the play of light and shadows, abstract textures, mysterious layouts that transform the map into the monster itself. Doomguy is, as in the cosmic horror novels, a blank character in which the player can incorporate his own feelings. Doom is a narrative told in images and empty spaces that instigate the player's imagination, and for this reason (and many others) it is a game that has much more story than many players realize. 

A few examples:
- Halls of the Damned (E2M6), by Sandy Petersen, is possibly based on Lovecraft's short story The Nameless City (1921), which also places the player in an environment where the main danger factor is darkness.
- Tower of Babel (E2M8) is another of Peterson's parallels with Lovecraft.  At the end of At the Mountains of Madness (1936), the narrator finds mutilated bodies of creatures he previously thought were responsible for the deaths of his companions; in the last level of the second episode of Doom, the player immediately comes across torn-up bodies of four Barons of Hell, indicating that a bigger monster is lurking around.

- Mt. Erebus (E3M6) is a direct reference to Mount Erebus, site of the magnificent lost city in At the Mountains of Madness.
 

I think everything went in the right direction: Tom Hall's ideas were incompatible with the technology at the time (and remained so for years, as we can see in Rise of the Triad). If Tom Hall had continued and Sandy Petersen hadn't been hired, the game would probably have been an improved version of Wolfenstein. The game would have possibly been more focused on science fiction (with a grand, meh narrative), while the cosmic horror would be noted more for indirect references to Lovecraftian works such as Alien, Evil Dead I & II and Dungeons and Dragons.

Edited January 10, 2024 by The Royal We

[DoomGappy]

On 1/8/2024 at 8:43 PM, Rudolph said:

"Doom II: The Way Tom Hall Would Have Done" actually sounds like an awesome idea for a community project!

 

^{So long as it is Doom 1-era Tom Hall and not Rise of the Triad-era Tom Hall, that is...}

Isn't that exactly what Tom's Halls is about?

[Plerb]

9 minutes ago, DoomGappy said:

Isn't that exactly what Tom's Halls is about?

That's a Doom 1 project though. :P

[DoomGappy]

1 minute ago, Plerb said:

That's a Doom 1 project though. :P

Oh, makes sense. 

[TheRevenant212]

Honestly, can't really say. Never was crazy for Tom as a Doom mapper (not that I don't like his maps or think they're bad, I just think they tend to get a little same'sy, if that makes sense). I do love some of the pretty out-there ideas he had for Doom 1 though. But the majority of said ideas weren't even implemented into the final game, so who knows really? Doom 2 also likely would'nt have any of the more weird or experimental maps that it's become known for. Due to Sandy not filling in Tom's place.

Edited January 10, 2024 by TheRevenant212

[GermanPeter]

I see a lot of people here say that his maps would be fairly flat and uninteresting, but I don't believe that. Just look at the levels he made for Rise of the Triad and how experimental they are sometimes.

 

"Rocky Plateau" especially gives me Doom 2 city level vibes, making it one of my favorites. It's a large, interconnected map where you can go anywhere you like from the beginning. It looks extremely basic, but has nice detail here and there in the form of waterfalls. There are distinct buildings and landmarks you can visit, with some buildings being entirely optional. It's very much like Downtown, Suburbs, The Factory and Industrial Zone that way.

 

So I feel that if he had made Doom 2 maps, they'd be very similar to what we ended up receiving, just with nicer-looking buildings. Keeping the open-ended nature of them, but making them look more like real cities. I'd even argue that many of the more "out there" maps like Monster Condo, Tricks and Traps and Barrels of Fun would have existed as well, just not in the same form. Again, look at Rise of the Triad and how much usage they tried to get out of the moving walls and platforms, as well as the bounce pads and traps.

 

I think people are judging Tom's maps based on what he submitted when the team was partially stuck in "Wolfenstein 3D mode". Of course they're flat, they had barely figured out the new tools. A ton of Doom 1 maps are very flat, they never did anything like the Chasm or The Pit back then. But with more time and experience, I think he'd have found his groove and combined excellent level detail (which was already the case in Wolf3D) with excellent gameplay.

Edited January 10, 2024 by GermanPeter