Igt vs rt, would like perspectives

[Fonze]

Hey all, I'm a runner and mod of a game/src community and a recent run we've accepted has left me with too many questions to rightfully ask in a way that more directly compells an answer, or reading this incoming wall of text in the first place. Read on only if you are ready for full mundanity. This is a very minor thing I simply have way too many questions about and I don't want to be a bother to anyone with my incessant questions, though I do also recognize that I'm posing this to people who have no leg in the race, so to speak; that is on purpose. I'm posting this here because it's disconnected from the people it affects, nobody needs to feel bad not responding to it, or deleting it; nobody (other than me I suppose ba-dum ts--ouch...) needs to see their rose-tinted times and base their thoughts on that... I simply want some perspectives for my own sake, I recognize my own projecting for what it is, and I don't want to risk posing the conversation for others to feel the same. I also don't want to undermine anybody else, I don't wish to create drama in the server amongst mods, runners, and bystanders with my possible FUD, nor be continually/seemingly argumentative/annoying to the other great mods or our amazing dev as I work through my thoughts on this... but I am having trouble working through them. The game dev is in charge and brought a few of us on to help as mods, and our rules are pretty simple, so ultimately I don't need to put this much thought into this, but I also run the game a lot and can't help but question every little thing that can be pondered about lol... I also recognize that I can be annoying when I start thinking too much about the little stuff and ask way too many questions, particularly when I don't read the room well enough to recognize that nobody else cares about random, ultra-specific topic as much as I do in that moment. Nerd problems 🤓😅 Anyway, the dev and I had a very brief word about it where I did not push the issue as I don't want to be a bother or potentially stir up others into my indecisive views, so at this point, for my own curiosity and piece of mind, I'd like to get some other perspectives in less of a potentially argument-baity way where nobody has a stake in the discussion, given something about it just doesn't sit right with me. Idk... I def could use more perspective on it.

 

For the game in question, we currently use in-game time/igt, as opposed to real time/rt, since it's: provided, accurate, and so that competition can be more equal between people with different pc's, as load times/etc can affect somebody's run unfairly. Personally, I like this because it keeps the speedrunning aspect of the game more accessible to all. It also generally makes our lives as mods easier too, and for runners allows for easier comparison of times with both each other and for our competition with our own clocks. The game timer can be always visible so you always know how you're doing, or you can wait til the end screen to see the overall time, and it gives good, accessible incentive to get better even for those without livesplit or similar timing programs.

 

The issue that has come up in this case is that somebody has submitted a run that runs about 13% slower than the game should run at, almost certainly due to this person having a potato pc. For numbers, I timed a rt minute of the final boss fight, no screen transitions, to 52 igt seconds, which is about how many frames they're getting per second as well. Also there's no sound lol... but seperate issue I suppose. We of course accepted the run with its igt, which is good given that not everybody can afford a better pc and this is from a brand new runner. We should be encouraging to new players and I love that our small community is. We're very fortunate to have a wholesome little crowd and I believe being inclusive and supportive is key in keeping that good attitude alive.

 

What concerns me is that at higher levels of play, we use a ton of precise button spamming: imagine a fighting game (or metroidvania in this case) where everything can be canceled by something else. As one example of the most commonly used tech: roll cancels the cooldown on slash, jump cancels the cooldown on roll, and slash can be performed immediately after the cooldown for roll is canceled, which also extends the speed of the roll. This makes a loop of both damage and movement tech that is solely limited by how fast and precise one can execute them, in addition to how well one can position themselves to maximize these somewhat hectic attack/movement patterns, which can be optimized towards frame perfection for more speed. We also have several flat out frame perfect tricks; less-so in the any% run but still some, plus opportunities for many more. 13% is a big %, and certainly in the realm of being noticeable: I saw it right away when looking at the gameplay footage and am sure I would feel the impact hugely if playing. I think it goes without saying that these tricks and techniques would all be significantly easier to both perform and optimize at slower game speeds where frames stick around for longer. I see this being more of a big deal particularly in categories such as boss rush and 100% (which to be fair are both categories I run), where we use far more frame perfect tricks and times are distilled further to 'boss fights with all the things,' but even in any% there is a lot of room to save time simply from being able to input commands faster and nail more frame perfect tricks.

 

That all said, it worries me that this leads to a competitive inbalance in places the skill ceiling goes higher than human skill is capable of (you can literally not roll jump slash faster than the game will allow, as one example), which puts us into the realm of an honesty/trust policy wrt accepting that people aren't using 3rd party software to change the game speed for their attempts such as cheat engine, or using other tools such as purposefully using a low end pc to run the game or running demanding programs in the background to slow their game down for faster in-game times. Even the thought of looking at a runner's history doesn't address the long con, unlikely as such a thing might be, especially for a game that isn't hugely popular... Perhaps I'm thinking on this too much... Still, it worries me that finding ways to make the game play slower could become a part of the run as things become more and more optimized, and I don't like the idea of using a trust system for something that can make such a big difference.

 

That all said I would also like to state that I'm okay with any imbalances not punching down, so to speak. As in I'd rather anything not punish those who cannot afford better pc's, and would prefer for any imbalances impossible to solve to be against those who are better off than those who are worse off, but at what point do we draw a line on such a thing? Or again am I simply thinking too much on this...

 

Something to be noted as well: this isn't that serious; it is a game, it isn't a hugely popular/competitive one at that, nor is this run a "competitive" time, but that line of logic seems incredibly flawed to me... It sells the game, the time we put into it, and the enjoyment we get from the competition related to it short, and here I am giving it at least enough thought to consider writing out this book of a post asking for other perspectives on it, so while not so serious as to get hung up on it too long, I think it is worth a good consideration. Additionally, who are we to say such a thing as what is or isn't competitive? I mean I guess some of it comes with being a mod; somebody has to enforce where the lines in the sand are, but who am I to say that a time somebody worked for and shared isn't competitive enough to warrant the same care as I would give my own time? 

 

I think that I would feel some type of way if somebody's game was running slower than mine, they got a higher rt but lower igt and bumped me on the leaderboards, even though under any other circumstances I would be happy (and have been in the past) and supportive of their great achievement, as I was with the current any% wr holder when they bumped me with some incredible times. I put a lot of time into getting my best times, so if somebody beats it they've done great in my book and I love that... and I think that's the part that tugs at me the most. I love being supportive but I'm struggling to find value in the interpersonal portion of the competition if that were to happen to one of my times. I think I would struggle to be genuine in my congrats and I don't like the thought.

 

As it happens, this is the case for somebody: their rt is ~50 seconds faster, but their igt is ~2:45 slower to this new run. I cannot speak for them as to if they consider their run competitive, or would care about this issue at all if they knew about it; I don't wish to put words in their mouth wrt this example and I'm not here to white knight for anybody. These times are literally near the bottom of times submitted to our leaderboards so very well may just be casual speedruns for the achievement, but if that were my run I think I would be quite invested in the decision. Though that is also from the bias of knowing that I've put hundreds of hours into practicing the categories I enjoy running and see the frame perfect tricks and optimizations I've spent time learning to get my times as low as I've been able to thus far as being cheapened by the prospect. Perhaps I am projecting too much.

 

All of this also brings up the point of what is a competitive run, and if/when it's right for us to say something is a little more okay because the run/time "isn't competitive." Not to say that's the logic used here, I may be the only person thinking that to be fair, I can only speak to what is in my own head, but it is a logic that has crossed my mind when making decisions, in part as a rationalization to look the other way on minor issues in favor of being inclusive and supportive to newer players. Of which I like doing, such as how we accepted this run without sound. I'm totally okay with that despite it being otherwise against the rules and I can only rationalize that as "it's not a competitive time," for better or worse, and just being supportive of new players in general. Is it necessary for a run to be a contender for a top spot to warrant additional care, or at what point in a small community/as a small community grows do we start to crack down on such things? Alternatively, is this something to be expected at the top level at some point? I def don't want to be discouraging to newer runners just learning the ropes and experiencing the joys of running a new game/constant gold splits/improving times/etc. especially as we are a smaller community, but I also don't want to set a bad precedent for later or undermine the work that other runners have put into their times. I like to have a set idea for what I'm doing so I don't have to question my own decision making, can quickly/confidently do the thing, and go back to whatever else I'm doing. While I do have a very good idea of what to do under normal circumstances, this run and what, to be fair, I'm making it represent, throws a major wrench in that sense.

 

Of course with everything involving humans, there needs to be an equally human element to moderation to address the nuances. That's what we're here for is to case-by-case rule what is or isn't okay, and it's perhaps okay for rules or the way they're enforced to be changed over time or interpreted differently case-by-case. Also, it's not my place to make any drama on the dev or community, like I'm just here to help and happy to be here lol. But this does have me leaning towards supporting rt for our game, for better or maybe more likely for worse. Given that, are my fears unfounded FUD, is rt an eventuality for most games, is this just something we'll have to address when it's more 'important,' or is it just a thin line to walk as we continue on? Should I be concerned about this as a runner, let alone as a mod? Am I thinking too much about this? Well, clearly yes to that last one, but given the nuance I could def use more perspective on this ❤️

[plums]

Well I'm glad you got all that off your chest...

 

Anyhow, for perspective I'm someone who's generally a fan of speedruns, but not a runner, and who doesn't follow any particular game closely (Doom sort-of excepted). Also I assume you judge runs based on video recordings like most games.

 

I think if you're allowing people to compete on PCs where specs can vary wildly, and you want to stay with IGT, then you need some sort of baseline performance requirement where the game runs at the speed it's supposed to. It sucks that this introduces a financial barrier, but I don't really see a fair way around that -- rulings like this need to consider fairness to everyone in the scene, not just the one person who is at a disadvantage. Even something like multiplying their IGT by a factor equal to how much slower the game is running probably doesn't work because the theoretical benefits of running the game slower to get more precise input might outweigh the cost of a speed penalty -- you would know better about this than anyone else here would -- but also I assume the slowdown can vary with how much is going on in the game at any given moment.

 

RT also has this financial barrier, but someone who doesn't meet it is simply penalized automatically rather than calling the runs validity into question. But again it sort of depends on if slowing down the game in spots could be a tactical choice. Anyhow as much of a pain as it is you can exclude cutscenes/loading times from the time of RT runs, if they are heavily performance-dependent. Generally I assume this is something the runner does themselves, and that mods would only need to verify for a run that places near the top of the leaderboards.

 

Also even if you do stick to IGT, a player looking to cheat could have some kind of program running that makes things go slow on demand, though hopefully if it were enough to make a difference you would be able to notice it easily.

 

However, like you were sort of getting at, one advantage to playing a game with a very small competitive scene is that you can kind of avoid all of these decisions until they come up. I don't know how small it is you're talking about, but it sounds like the kind of thing were you can let this person's run in as it is for now, and you don't need to worry about what to do if they (or someone else with a slow PC) get closer to a record until that happens.

 

With all that said: I assume this game has multiple people moderating runs? I'm sure they also have thoughts about this one way or another. It's probably best to bring this up with them. It sounds like you might be reluctant to do so without having already gotten a clear position for yourself, but assuming they are all reasonable people, it should be fine to bring this up as a question about the future without necessarily having an answer.

[Fonze]

Ty for the perspective plums ❤️

 

You're correct that I am reluctant to bring the topic up with them... not for them being unreasonable people. I'm worried that it's me who is unreasonable in this. Which is why I wanted thoughts from those who are not invested, as well as a bit of a less committed way to talk through my difficulties on this, so that when I bring it up for a second time I can do so concisely as to not drag on a conversation I may be alone in wishing to have. Granted this time not as it relates to this specific run, but as it relates to our whole system of comparison.

 

I appreciate your thoughts on the topic at hand too: there are def pluses and minuses in both directions and perhaps they are about the same either way lol. I think I'll sit on the thought a bit more and reach out to a few after I've had time to work through my thoughts.

[plums]

Yeah, I don't think it's unreasonable at all to ask about what happens in the future if people start getting better times with runs that are not going at 100% speed, even if its not their fault and they don't have another way to play. Just, uh, maybe try to be a bit more concise than in your first post ;)