What specific maps/runs made you improve at a particular skill, game situation, or understanding?

[Kinetic]

I'll go first by mentioning some examples of runs that I believe made be better with particular weapons (partly inspired by a comment Looper made about av29m being a run that made him get good with BFG).

 

- E1M2 max made me better with chaingun. Most of my runs up until this point hadn't involved the chaingun very much or at all aside from mowing down a horde of fodder or sniping down some hard-to-hit monsters, or shoot switches. This run however is almost exclusively chaingunning monsters low-tiers, and the tight time frame to crack record on it forces you to chaingun as effectively as you can. Essentially what I came to an understanding and grasp of is that it is much better to tap chaingun in an optimized-chaingun max like this, as you still maintain a high rate of fire except with 100% accuracy. Once I began doing this my hit-rate on enemies went up a lot and they died quicker with less ammo taken.

 

- lv02m made be better with SSG and lineups. It also made be a little better with shotgun, as did ev01m, pl01m, and E1M5 max, but the principles you apply with SSG are similar as with shotgun in my opinion. Since lv02m is predominately an SSGfest on low-tiers with an extremely tight time barrier, there are a lot of lineups required to cut down the numbers with minimal shots taken. After playing the map 35k+ times, I now instinctively and automatically hunt for lineups with SSG (and SG) and it would actually take a bit of cognitive effort to prevent myself from hunting lineups now lol. Lineups in general can also be helpful for provoking infighting, so lineups are super effective for optimizing in maxing. Additionally, lv02m made me think about the spread of SSG and manipulating how it changes with distance and enemy configurations. Sometimes you may get a lineup of fodder...except it's not enemies behind one another in front of you, it's enemies linked across your field of view in a chain as if they're holding hands...in other words, it's a horizontal lineup you're staring at. In cases like these with a horizontal line of fodder (2-3), it can be advantageous to try to back up away from them and then shoot with SSG, as you get more horizontal spread this way (although if you have the time, it may be smarter to run to the line's side to change the horizontal lineup to a traditional "downhill" one). I believe I got the idea to shoot this way in such circumstances from one of looper's lv02 demos.

 

- Sunlust D2All Max got me better with implementing SR50. Mostly, needing to setup the death-skip in Map10 via a lineskip forced me to make my strafe-divisor really high to make VMM work so I could perform the trick, so consequently I needed to actually bind a setup to use 4-key SR50 instead of mouse SR50. It's hard not to SR50 in every open area I see now

 

- poog31m made me better with rocket launcher. I think I was already pretty familiar with optimizing rocket splash from previous runs, probably a run like su19m, but this map has several fights that you can't really beat unless you are optimizing your rocket splash. The caco wave in the 2nd main room mandates it with my strategy, and the 2nd secret room's first fight also mandates it practically.

 

- sc31o made me come to an understanding that movement players are insane at movement. For me, I hadn't really tried to perfect movement from point A to B in a run before, and I didn't think it would be that bad having seen the demos of movement players, because unless you've tried a movement run before it really doesn't look like a movement player is doing much in a demo. It's "just" SR50ing on the shortest path to and around corners and backing up from doors and SR50ing through them at the right time. I found it very tough transitioning between SR50s and turns, and also getting the best lines and angles was tough too, frustrating most of all, and that's why I'm not a movement runner.

 

What runs made you good at rocketjumps? What runs turned you into a glide addict/good at fitting through while sucking in your gut and holding your breath? Runs that improved how you develop routes for maps? Runs that got you better at dealing with archviles, archvile hordes, cybers, cyber hordes, dimensions map03 references? Runs that improved your punching prowess? Runs that improved your movement? Runs that developed your avj skills? Runs that changed how you regularly diagnose monster priority? Runs that taught you how to zero press or void glide? Runs that taught you you don't need to have 200/200 and 600 cells at the end of every map in a movie run? Runs that just generally changed your perspective on speedrunning the game?

 

Please comment, because this subforum is basically dead.

Edited January 19 by Kinetic

[Phoenyx]

Whilst not a demo, just a whole mapset, Junk Food 2 specifically made me get a whole lot better at using BFG tracers more efficiently to clean up large crowds quicker. This is something that I feel I improved upon further when doing Resurgence Map 32 max attempts. 

Speaking of larger maps with higher kill counts, Judgment Map 27 and Map 29 max definitely helped me to improve my routing of larger non-linear maps. Whilst Judgment Map 26 and Back to Saturn X: Episode One - Map 24 helped me with routing large linear maps I think my love for doing maxes on these kinds of maps stemmed from these maps specifically. Not only this, but it helped to build my endurance when doing these longer runs so I'm not getting tired halfway through a run and losing focus, doing dumb mistakes and losing time. I still get a little tired during longer demos, my Altitude run is proof of that because I messed up my route, but not as much as I probably would have if I hadn't done as many long maxes before. 

I'd never thought I would credit the master levels for anything but Canyon made me a little better at doing quick glides in runs. I utilise an east glide at the start of the run in order to open up the secrets that would usually not open until the end of the map, saving quite a bit of backtracking. 

In terms of dealing with Cyberdemons, I think I'd probably say Plutonia 2, either Map 32 or the D2All attempts from 2022 and early 2023 helped. But in tight spaces, I'd probably say the Abyssion max since it often pits you against Cyberdemons in tight areas and no BFG until the end. 

I wouldn't say my movement is top-tier but doing UV-Speed and NM-Speed demos for the Master Levels early on definitely helped to boost it up a bit to being decent rather than utterly trash. 

 

And finally, Speed of Doom Map 14 pacifist probably helped in some way with navigating through large crowds of enemies, especially at the start and end of that run.

Edited January 19 by Phoenyx

[Shepardus]

Doing NoMo demos for all of 50 Monsters made me learn how to do glides (MAP04 for guided glides and MAP07 for unguided). Still no good at them, but at least I'm not entirely helpless.

 

tom19 MAP11 and MAP31 obviously gave me a lot of practice with cyberdemon two-shotting. I specifically had to tighten up my timing for UV Fast since the window's a bit narrower to avoid getting shot in the face by the next attack.

 

GOODWAD MAP04 made me (slightly) less fearful of platforming, though I've yet to incorporate that in other runs (gotta do MAP22 someday...).

[4shockblast]

Good thread, been meaning to comment here for a little while, but been a bit preoccupied with a few... things. :^)

 

I think for me the major series of improvements came from the perdgate pack; having a table of mostly unfilled or old demos to work with helped with developing the skills for routing and executing a variety of categories. I think I've always tried to do a variety of categories (with admittedly more focus on Pacifist/Nomo), but with this pack I had to learn a more varied skillset, which I think helps overall with being able to route/execute any run. I definitely remember starting out the pack figuring it would be mostly maxes and speeds, and no way most of the Tysons or NMs would be doable, but at the end, the majority were done, with just I think 5-6 Tysons undone (that would be filled later) and two NM100s (still not done, heh). Maps like 12 and 27 really tested my NM skills, and were way out of my reach at first, and I think I sort of worked my way up to them by table filling harder and harder maps in the set. The same sort of happened with Tyson; IIRC, excluding trivial early maps or berserk Tysons, one of the first I did was either 13 or 18, which were fairly easy, but then after figuring out some of the harder ones (like 7, 10, 15), I went back and those seemed like a total cakewalk to me, though doesn't seem like I actually went back to speed them up :^). Having a blank slate to work on with a WAD that generally has a lot of category potential in general is a way that I found it fun to improve my gameplay without having to bash my head against what at the time seemed like insurmountable IWAD times.

 

For nomo, Scythe is definitely the WAD that I have used as a litmus test for my skills. Dropping map 01 to 8 was always a bit of a pipe dream until 2020, where dep and I both proved it possible. Map 04 was an even more challenging grind that was always tantalizingly close, but never seemed feasible until 2021. 2, 6, and 15s were ones where I achieved improvements of 1-2s over my early times by virtue of getting confident enough in my movement that incorporating yolo wallruns seemed very feasible (understanding of wallruns helped too, though). Maps like 9 and 17 were ones where I dropped 2s from my original times by simply improving on movement; both maps have little to no tricks, and are two of my favorite nomos in the WAD (besides 28). Due to their highly technical nature, they are very hard to execute at a fast pace. Case in point, amusingly, every single txt I wrote for 17 from 25s to 23s mentions that it took longer than expected :^), and none of them have major bumps, it's just better lines, timing, and use or SR50; there's just a lot of room for error. 28, of course, dropped a full 3s from my original time, and as a pure running map is well suited to this sort of comparison, though in its case, the RJ messes with the timeline; my original two nomos in 27 and 26 were just better movement, I achieved 25 with the RJ the year after, but nowadays, 25 no RJ is easy enough (and 24 with it isn't much harder, other than the challenge of getting the RJ itself).

 

Other than the above feeling like major improvement segments of my speedrunning career, I guess I can mention a few other specific runs that I've used for practicing various skills or that made me feel like a better player over time:

• lv31 nomo: obvious pick, but this is a classic choice for movement practice because of the simple repetitive movement that's easy to perform but hard to master. Don't have a clear history of this one, but back in 2014 I definitely struggled to even get a 29, based on the few demos I have from back then; by 2016, my best was a failed 29.17 (bumped the exit door), last year I finally decided to try to push as far as I could to 28.86, though even then I struggled to not lose pace, between doors, and felt like it should be 28.7 range or lower, heh.
• Italo-Doom 07: I think this is the first platforming map I really grinded on, so getting 42 in 2016 was a major test of my skills at the time. Since then, I apparently grinded it in 2018 a bit (fruitlessly), and then in 2021 for the 37, definitely a lucky fast time over what I should have gotten, but still, even my expected time then was way out of reach of 2016 me. :p Not a run you can ever be satisfied with, there's always a new spot where you feel like you can rush quicker. :D
• sl32 max: competing with Anc back in 2015 on this was a serious test of my skills. Combat has never been something I did all that much, so it's really not my strong suit, and this proved to be a good training ground I guess, heh. Anc's handling of the fights was way better, and pretty sure he put a lot less time into it simply because he would lose fewer runs to the fights in the map; for my part, my movement would carry me anywhere that wasn't a fight which helped me get faster times. Over time, I did feel way stronger with rev and AV BFG fights, and those two skillsets carry pretty far for any sort of slaughter combat. :) Of course, by 2020, when I tried this run again, dropping it below my time back then wasn't nearly as much of a struggle, so I got way more comfortable since the early days.
• sl15 pacifist: not like other choices here, but more of an example of how important it is if you are trick or route hunting to take multiple looks at the same part of a map over long periods of time, you never know what you might find. This is another run I tried back in 2015, and that exit AVJ was very tempting but seemed completely impossible. I can't say it's actually skill that got me to find the way I do it in my final run from 2020, as I really just lucked into the collision against the pillar, but just making the effort to try things that seemed impossible again is something I highly recommend to anyone trying to improve a skill or run in Doom, because you never know if by luck or inspiration or newly added ability you can crack a run that previously seemed entirely unattainable (probably applies to all forms of skill-based activities, tbh).

[kvothesixstring]

For glides, pl13p was my trial by fire. I had done them before that but after 43k attempts I was either going to be addicted or never glide again. All the repetition gave me good muscle memory for vmm. I've done better glides since then but that was the catalyst that sent me down the 32 unit path of glidge business. 

 

I think doing nomo in general was how I got better with movement but if I had to pick a run that really cemented it, it would have to be the TVR! Nomo D2All or perhaps the Surge Nomo D2All. Both of those had a fair amount of maps that, while tame by today's platforming standards, had some really annoying movement areas that I had to really fine tune my inputs to not just slam into walls or fall off ledges. Having the incentive of not wanting to restart a movie run was a good motivator as well. ILs can be spammed to a certain degree so you can play a little more yolo. 

 

For Max I think I am still finding my footing. But Surge was a good crash course for routing. I still have a long way to go in this category. I think the biggest thing I've learned about max is to just try things and see what works. There's a lot of trial and error with routing a max that I find interesting. It's more lenient in that regard as opposed to pacifist or nomo especially. Depending on the map there could be several routes that are viable. Take sr14 for example. I experimented with multiple different routes. Running straight for keys and progression while ignoring most of the monsters is counterintuitive for me when it comes to max, but that ended up being sort of the best way to run that map. 

 

 

[eanasir]

I believe that E2M8 taught me how to circle strafe correctly

[Kinetic]

5 hours ago, 4shockblast said:

Scythe

I also used Scythe as a bit of a litmus test, as I felt the maxes would be approximately just below TNT/plutonia level of optimization, so I thought by taking the max table (nearly) on it, I could better approximate how tough it might be to take an actual iwad's table. Additionally, I used it as more training for my routing acumen; I wanted to train my routing since for most maxes prior to late 2023, I had taken records by just copying the existing route and cleaning up execution, and while I had known this about myself I didn't necessarily want to improve my routing ability until mhrz started joking that copying routes is all I do. I've had at least 5 different experiences where mhrz's routing ability really impressed me, so I felt the need to up my routing game and not be someone who just copies existing routes with little to offer in terms of innovation or creativity on a run. For scythe, this meant not even watching the max record demo or slower demos of runs until I tried routing them myself; if I couldn't figure out how to get a time faster than the one on the table after trying different routes, that is when I looked at their demo to see what they did. I don't think I'm a good router still, but I have much greater interest in routing now than I did before.

 

 

4 hours ago, kvothesixstring said:

Running straight for keys and progression while ignoring most of the monsters is counterintuitive for me when it comes to max, but that ended up being sort of the best way to run that map. 

speaking of routing, let's make up jargon and talk about "Routing Theory" and pretend sub-theories for it exists.
 

Spoiler

 

Progression Theory:

 

Activating as much progression as possible as fast as possible leads to faster times in uv-max runs of maps, either through increased infighting or achieving better firepower for dispatching enemies quicker.

 

Often times it's really useful to run past as much stuff as possible, especially when there's so much to kill and it seems really slow with trying to dance around to instigate infighting or to use your current weapons. Common ideas that fall under the idea of Progression Theory are "getting to BFG ASAP" or "releasing as much as possible in the map to maximize infighting", and the former can take the form of other weapons or even ammo depending on the context of the map (maybe the rocket launcher is the most powerful weapon in the map). Progression can also lead to better grouping opportunities later on, which are good for maximizing BFG, rocket, or infighting efficiency. While it might seem intuitive in a max to never have to revisit areas or to avoid overlapping in your pathing through a map, it may be best to consider the speed of different routes rather than the actual physical distance or length of each route.

 

For instance, most runs of Flotsam Map06 utilized a route that didn't revisit key areas, but mhrz beat all of those runs with a route that was much "longer" and overlapped a lot more and revisited areas more, but because he was flying through the route in his map his speed makes up for the extra distance he has to travel in his route. His speed was ultimately faster due to infighting killing lots of stuff for him, since his route was designed to maximize infighting while achieving progression (keys) super quickly. Essentially, it's 2 speedy visits of an area for mhrz vs. 1 slower visit of an area for previous runs, and those 2 speedy visits together take less time than the 1 slow visit