Doom 64 - An Overrated Masterpiece Of Coal

[GermanPeter]

6 minutes ago, Antroid said:

Might just be because calling things overrated is much more obnoxious than calling them underrated. I'd much rather see praise that I disagree with than nitpicking I disagree with. One comes off as the author wanting to bring attention to something they think deserves it, and the other comes off as the author claiming to have superior taste to "the masses" and explaining why something you like actually sucks. Ragebait is a thing, but I don't think there is a term for praisebait?

 

1 minute ago, jazzmaster9 said:

The popular game is bad actually and people are sheep have been a bit rampant lately on Youtube and Twitter and have rightfully been called out, the one that happened recently with an infamous Doom Eternal tweet comes to mind. So i get that people are just sick of Rage Bait weather the intention was out of spite or not.

 

Meanwhile, I'm fed up with people who keep calling things "underrated" or "masterpiece" without leaving any ground in the middle. I get they're trying to give praise to something they think deserves it, but ignoring or downplaying flaws isn't good either and helps nobody. If anything, it can create unrealistic expectations. Imagine someone hearing about how perfect Doom 64 is, only to play it and get frustrated after a few levels.

Give praise when it's justified, but don't ignore downsides just to give praise. The opposite is of course equally annoying. I just wanted to do a more nuanced take on the discussion while parodying other Youtubers in the title and thumbnail.

[jazzmaster9]

6 minutes ago, GermanPeter said:

 

 

Meanwhile, I'm fed up with people who keep calling things "underrated" or "masterpiece" without leaving any ground in the middle. I get they're trying to give praise to something they think deserves it, but ignoring or downplaying flaws isn't good either and helps nobody. If anything, it can create unrealistic expectations. Imagine someone hearing about how perfect Doom 64 is, only to play it and get frustrated after a few levels.

Give praise when it's justified, but don't ignore downsides just to give praise. The opposite is of course equally annoying. I just wanted to do a more nuanced take on the discussion while parodying other Youtubers in the title and thumbnail.

There is such a thing as bad outweighing the good. Nothing can be a Perfect game, but there are times where strong elements are just so strong that the negatives fall by the way side.
 

There was absolutely nothing nuanced with "Doom 64 sux lol" and "overrated" on the intro and title.

Im sorry but i just cannot agree with this at all.

Edited January 23 by jazzmaster9

[Antroid]

14 minutes ago, GermanPeter said:

Imagine someone hearing about how perfect Doom 64 is, only to play it and get frustrated after a few levels.

What a horrible situation! We wouldn't want to inflict this on the innocents! Trying something and possibily not liking it???

 

It's much safer to never try anything new at all, which is why we must make videos about how everything sucks instead. You have convinced me.

[GermanPeter]

1 minute ago, Antroid said:

What a horrible situation! We wouldn't want to inflict this on the innocents! Trying something and possibily not liking it???

 

It's much safer to never try anything new at all, which is why we must make videos about how everything sucks instead. You have convinced me.

Good job on completely misunderstanding my point lol

[Antroid]

Nah, I understand it, I just disagree with equating both sides as equally useless and annoying (and especially with claiming that but still using clickbait titles). But if you think I don't, maybe you can say something that will make that sentence I quoted not so incredibly hilarious. Because it is incredibly hilarious.

[Immorpher]

10 hours ago, Craneo said:

I SUMMON THEE, @Immorpher
 

Unfortunately the title seems oddly reminiscent of the yearly Doomworld anti-doom 64 post someone inevitably posts each year. Sometimes its out of legit confusion about Doom 64 or sometimes they just want clicks with a title. I guess it came early this year! But I will re-share what I wrote on the discord.

It still shocks me everyday to see people say that Doom 64 is an "overrated masterpiece". In most of Doom 64's history it was controversial to say Doom 64 was not mediocre. The notorious review by Jeff Gerstmann and the hate mail Doom 64 got to IGN cemented to most people that Doom 64 was bad. You can see my Doomworld account creation is not that old, as everything I found online about Doom 64 was mostly negative in the 2000's. I don't think a lot of people who got Doom 64 with Doom Eternal realize this history. It wasn't until @Major Arlene that I found the general Doom community could be amenable to Doom 64, outside of us super fanatics.

But coming from that background, I have taken a "gaming multiculturalism" idea to heart. That is if a game aims to please everyone it becomes closer to being generic and it no longer becomes interesting (it thus ironically pleases no one). Games that last have to target a specific audience, while ignoring the majority of gamers (getting 40% of gamers is one of the biggest hits of all time). And the reason why the majority of gamers aren't accessible as customers is because we're all different. We all grew up in different homes, countries, and played different games. Sometimes people need a basic game to get into gaming, but then that shapes the games they want to play later. We're locked in separate neural pathways of enjoyment. Gamers are in multiculturalism. So in my nerd opinion, if a game wants to be truly special, and really inspire some gamers, then it must narrow in on the group it intends to please.

Then on a separate scenario, I always think back to this Rock, Paper, Shotgun article: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/best-average-action-games-on-pc . It explains how the perception of games change over time. Many 9/10 games of early consoles back then tried new ideas and new things on the console, that ended up surprising players. But later these mechanics would be iterated and improved upon, then a slew of 7/10 games would come out, rated lower for not being original anymore. But as that article explains those 7/10 games would often end up aging better than the earlier 9/10 (or even contemporary 9/10s from other genres), because all of it seems unoriginal now and at least the 7/10s worked with tried and true mechanics.

This is why I don't believe in number ratings, because people and times vary too much for them to really make sense. But I think Doom 64 has benefited from both scenarios as of recent: the FPS culture forming such that more people can appreciate it now, and sticking to a tried and true formula that ages better. But if you only come at it from a very recent perspective, you wouldn't have seen the 20+ years of Doom 64 obscurity and perceived mediocrity. I guess it is a sign of how far Doom 64 has come since then and it's truly remarkable!

[GermanPeter]

4 minutes ago, Immorpher said:

Unfortunately the title seems oddly reminiscent of the yearly Doomworld anti-doom 64 post someone inevitably posts each year. Sometimes its out of legit confusion about Doom 64 or sometimes they just want clicks with a title. I guess it came early this year! But I will re-share what I wrote on the discord.

The title was an intentional jab at Youtubers who claim the game is an "underrated masterpiece", which doesn't add much the discussion either, as it ignores a lot of the game's flaws. The video itself is actually more of a nuanced review of the game, and comes to the conclusion that while it's not perfect and has its flaws, is still good.

[El Juancho]

Doom 64 is a much better experience than doom 2 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[GermanPeter]

7 minutes ago, El Juancho said:

Doom 64 is a much better experience than doom 2 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Oh yeah, I can see that! And Doom 2's my favorite in the series.

[Edward850]

4 hours ago, GermanPeter said:

The title was an intentional jab at Youtubers who claim the game is an "underrated masterpiece", which doesn't add much the discussion either, as it ignores a lot of the game's flaws. The video itself is actually more of a nuanced review of the game, and comes to the conclusion that while it's not perfect and has its flaws, is still good.

If you keep having to explain this to everyone, then your title has failed to adequately convey the satire. What you have is indistinguishable from intentional clickbait.

[DankMetal]

4 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

If you keep having to explain this to everyone, then your title has failed to adequately convey the satire. What you have is indistinguishable from intentional clickbait.

Poe's law at its finest

Quote

Poe's law is an adage of internet culture which says that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, any parodic or sarcastic expression of extreme views can be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of those views.

 

[Craneo]

[Hebonky]

A better title would be "Rough Silver."

[Rudolph]

9 hours ago, GermanPeter said:

Meanwhile, I'm fed up with people who keep calling things "underrated" or "masterpiece" without leaving any ground in the middle.

You are fed up with people... actually liking an unfairly-maligned game?

 

Come on, now. Doom 64 is not BioShock. It was an unpretentious attempt at giving the Nintendo 64 its own Doom game; the developers could have been content with making yet another straightforward console port, but instead they decided to design an original mapset with new art assets to make it stand out from the other console versions of the time. Clearly, it was not enough to impress the audiences that were looking for the next big thing, but it is a valiant, respectable effort nonetheless and, as others noted before me, it is nice that it is being positively reevaluated now.

 

On a side-note, I went and read the Jeff Gertsmann review and I find it to be rather confusing, as it manages to come across as both pretty fair and unnecessarily harsh at the same time. Aside from the incorrect statement about the Unmaker being useless (I suspect that he did not know about the Demon Artifacts and their ability to enhance the weapon), everything he states - which is actually positive for the most part - is accurate, yet somehow he comes to the conclusion that Doom 64 is merely a mediocre game and he even throws in a "sigh" to make it all sound like it is a bad thing?

 

In a weird way, it reminds me of the much-maligned "If Only You Could Talk To The Monster" review of Doom, which was actually positive, but because it concluded with the author admitting to be left wanting, it is now mostly (mis)remembered as a purely negative review that missed the mark. In hindsight, it is odd how it has since become a meme, yet Jeff Gertsmann's Doom 64 review has not.

Edited January 23 by Rudolph

[Donowa]

haven't watched the video yet, but i think that doom 64 is just kinda eh, i'd say it's on par with most of the other official doom games or final doom but nowhere near as good as any of the modern doom wads (after 1999)

hectic however can stick its traps through its ears and out its ass, especially the blue key trap

Edited January 23 by Donowa

[Rudolph]

39 minutes ago, Donowa said:

hectic however can stick its traps through its ears and out its ass, especially the blue key trap

On the plus side, it is memorable and it does come with a warning and even a way out. And unlike, say, Plutonia, it is only one map and a secret one, so unless you really care about unlocking cheats mode on your own, you do not have to play it.

Edited January 23 by Rudolph

[Mr. Freeze]

19 hours ago, Li'l devil said:

What I really dislike though, is when Doom 64 fans call it the "real Doom 3", which is basically like indirectly throwing crap at Doom 3.

Yes I think Doom 3, while an interesting game, doesn't properly represent the series as much as Doom 64 does. What of it? 

 

The only "overrated" Classic Doom title is TNT, by which people like it at all. 

[xScavengerWolfx]

I've never played Doom 64 when it first came out in '97 (i was playing Turok on the N64 and thank you nightdive for making a remaster that's a god sent *chief's kiss*)

 

I remember seeing videos of people playing Doom 64 EX i think it was on Youtube and i was like "this looks cool as hell, i wanna play it now" but instated of finding it i bought the physical copy of it and play it on the N64 controller........Yeah it wasn't meant for the N64 controller at all. 

 

But back on topic i wanted to say. Do i think Doom 64 is "overrated"? Answer: No but. No it's not overrated but it is sad to see people clam it is. For me when i played the remastered of Doom 64 and the lost levels and now Beta 64 (shout out to Styd051 for making the maps even though there remastered maps but i don't care still fun) i had fun, i love the cryptic puzzle solving / progression, the weapons sound and feel great to use, the revamp enemies are more dangerous (Too bad they couldn't include the chain gunners, the Arch-Viles and the boners in the game due to limit space on the cartage if memory serves me right), and the music.....oh the music.

 

I love the dreadful, suspense, your always in danger music of doom 64, it give me the sense of "i do not belong here, something evil wants me gone". The comment of "I think the sound tracks belongs in Doom 1 and not Doom 64 because Doom 1 is your alone" i disagree so hard on that statement. Doom 1 was meant to be yes your a sole survivor but your also a badass that has no fear. Doom 64 on the other hand is more of yes your alone but this time it's much much more darker and the sense of "dreadfulness" is more stronger then in both doom games. 

 

Personally speaking i love Doom 64, hell in my Ultimate doom wad i'm currently still working on i tried to incorporate some of Doom 64 DNA in it, along with Stickeny Installation (great wad that inspired me to do Ultimate doom mapping thank you snax), and other wads. I believe Doom 64 is the one game that people have forgotten because of other games like Turok, golden eye, Half life (Ok that came out in '98 but still) and all the other fps games of the time era. 

 

Do i think people should play it? Yes, it may not be for everyone but it's a game that deserves praise for it's unique level designs, the combat is good not great but it has gotten me a few times, the "music" fits perfectly with the atmosphere and theme it wanted and above all it's a good game.

 

Oh and fun fact which i know one of the nightdive members talked about this on another thread: It used the IdTech 1 engine but midway modified it to make some of the stuff function like the crusher in Map 2, the lighting and other things. I could be misremembering things but i found that reall cool. 

 

TL;DR: There are something i do agree with and a lot and i mean a lot i do not agree with when watching that video of yours.

[xScavengerWolfx]

14 minutes ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Yes I think Doom 3, while an interesting game, doesn't properly represent the series as much as Doom 64 does. What of it? 

 

The only "overrated" Classic Doom title is TNT, by which people like it at all. 

What about Plutonia Experiment? Wouldn't that be "overrated" as well or is it a cult classic? And i never understood why people liked TNT Evilution

[Mr. Freeze]

Plutonia is amazing. It feels like a natural progression from Doom 2 with tougher combat. It's my second favorite IWAD right behind Ultimate Doom. 
 

[Donowa]

i think that doom 3 is a game that feels doomy enough while bringing it into the era of games like half life and quake

[Mr. Freeze]

It's a great game, I just have a hard time squaring it as "Doom 3" and not "Doom: Martian Apocalypse" or something. It's just really different compared to the rest of the series in both tone and gameplay. Absolute best Hell levels in the entire series though. 

[Snaxalotl]

11 hours ago, GermanPeter said:

I named the video the same way as all the other Youtubers who call it an "underrated masterpiece" and praise the game to hell and back, only I did the opposite. Both types of title are misleading, though at least I clarified that mine was and then went on to review the game in a neutral fashion, weighing out both the pros and cons.

Guys I was just using clickbait ironically so it doesn't count. Watch my whole video so you can respond properly and I get money.

[xScavengerWolfx]

Next doom video i do i'll make it click batty, have people watch it and get paid for fooling everyone. Another words i'll be Midnight and start making  click bating titles like this. 

 

The most weirdest doom wad i've ever played at 3am (not click bate)

 

[Insert soyjack point meme here] Totally not click bate

Edited January 23 by xScavengerWolfx

[xScavengerWolfx]

42 minutes ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Plutonia is amazing. It feels like a natural progression from Doom 2 with tougher combat. It's my second favorite IWAD right behind Ultimate Doom. 
 

And Milo and Dario knew how to use the enemies right especially map 11.......oh dear god the bunny music

[GermanPeter]

2 hours ago, Rudolph said:

You are fed up with people... actually liking an unfairly-maligned game?

I dislike reviewers glossing over games' flaws simply to praise them as masterpieces. You should point out both the good and the bad, which I did in my video.

Enjoyment has nothing to do with how flawed a game is. I'm always very harsh about the pieces of media I enjoy. I'm willing to admit that Doom 2 has a ton of flaws, and I love it to death regardless. I just wish reviewers were more open about that as well.

 

3 hours ago, Edward850 said:

If you keep having to explain this to everyone, then your title has failed to adequately convey the satire. What you have is indistinguishable from intentional clickbait.

I can see that. On the other hand, with the thumbnail literally saying "game sux lol", I thought it was obvious enough, but guess not. Poe's law, like Dank Metal pointed out. Could have made it even more obvious I suppose.

Either way, at least I was immediately open about it within the first few minutes and even outlined the game's positive aspects first.

 

38 minutes ago, Snaxalotl said:

Guys I was just using clickbait ironically so it doesn't count. Watch my whole video so you can respond properly and I get money.

I do in fact love money. Gimme gimme gimme.

 

1 hour ago, xScavengerWolfx said:

Doom 1 was meant to be yes your a sole survivor but your also a badass that has no fear. Doom 64 on the other hand is more of yes your alone but this time it's much much more darker and the sense of "dreadfulness" is more stronger then in both doom games.

My issue is that the cutscenes constantly mention how much Doomguy is enjoying the carnage. Not the manual, not an interpretation by the player, but something directly stated within the game itself. So if he's not afraid but ready to throw hands, then why does the music convey the opposite? Either way, that was a really small nitpick and I love the atmosphere of the game. Without the ambience, it wouldn't have been as memorable.

Edited January 23 by GermanPeter

[Amaruψ]

3 minutes ago, GermanPeter said:

My issue is that the cutscenes constantly mention how much Doomguy is enjoying the carnage. Not the manual, not an interpretation by the player, but something directly stated within the game itself. So if he's not afraid but ready to throw hands, then why does the music convey the opposite? Either way, that was a really small nitpick and I love the atmosphere of the game. Without the ambience, it wouldn't have been as memorable.

 

The music in Postal doesn't quite convey the carnage that Postal dude is deliberately causing, as stated by his diary entries. The music is there to scare you, it's conveying the dark and gloomy mood to you, not to the Doomguy. Would be weird as hell if he was randomly lugging around a stereo to set the mood everywhere he went. It'd be super unfitting to have metal music accompanying a dark and foreboding environment, not to mention goofy as crap. 

[Rudolph]

29 minutes ago, GermanPeter said:

You should point out both the good and the bad

No. Unless they are professional reviewers, people have no obligation to act as your personal buyer's guide.

 

It is silly to act as if people are out to deceive you over a 1997 game that they happen to like more than you do.

Edited January 23 by Rudolph

[Faceman2000]

28 minutes ago, GermanPeter said:

So if he's not afraid but ready to throw hands, then why does the music convey the opposite?

Are you not familiar with the fight or flight response? Wanting to throw hands is a natural consequence of being scared. It’s why I, the player, can be simultaneously unnerved and anxiously anticipate the upcoming combat. Entire wads are built around this concept lol.

 

I feel this topic has gotten pretty vitriolic on both sides so I’m sorry to add but this comment in particular seems so odd to me.

[baja blast rd.]

34 minutes ago, GermanPeter said:

I dislike reviewers glossing over games' flaws simply to praise them as masterpieces. You should point out both the good and the bad, which I did in my video.

Enjoyment has nothing to do with how flawed a game is. I'm always very harsh about the pieces of media I enjoy. I'm willing to admit that Doom 2 has a ton of flaws, and I love it to death regardless. I just wish reviewers were more open about that as well.

 

Good and bad is very subjective, and it's possible that many reviewers simply were not bothered by what you thought of as bad. After all there's no such thing as "objective criticism."