After about 30 years of playing Doom I can say that in my opinion Doom 2 map design is commercial crap

[TheHambourgeois]

cool dude

[Stupid Bunny]

Hang on let me check something

 

Quote

commercial [kəˈmɝʃəɫ] (n.)

1. Describes any thing that doesn't make sense or match its name, is artificially organized, or doesn't look like what advanced humanity capable of terraforming Mars could do; abstract design.
2. But not any of that in Doom 1

 

Oh man I had that word all wrong, now I understand

[Gifty]

If only you could talk to the levels, now THAT would be interesting!

[OniriA]

whatevah.

Edited January 23 by OniriA

[Matthias]

Doom is one of the first 3D FPS games ever, so there were no established standards yet how maps should look like.

 

Sandy's maps were very experimental and gimmicky. He tried things like putting final boss from first game into the crusher or things like Barrels of Fun. It almost looks like he didn't take himself much seriously. Simply put, it were the anarchistic 90s and ID Soft was a rather garage company rather than a huge corporation like Nintendo.

 

To be fair, Sandy's maps have personality and they are pretty memorable.

 

Heretic - for example - have more professional looking maps with more responsible, consistent and "commercial" approach. At the same time they are less memorable and when I say "Barrels of Fun" you immediately know what map it is, but when I say "E3M3 - Confluence" you have to think about it for awhile.

 

I understand that Doom 2 was a very experimental game in general.

Edited January 23 by Matthias

["JL" was too short]

2 minutes ago, Matthias said:

Heretic - for example - have more professional looking map with more responsible, consistent and "commercial" approach. At the same time they are less memorable and wheb I say "Barrels of Fun" you immediately know what map it is, but when I say "E3M3 - Confluence" you have to think about it for awhile.

Eh.  This statement is accurate as pertains to my memory recall, and probably most people's, but I think you're backfilling a causation that doesn't exist.  The reason why I clearly remember MAP23 of Doom 2 and not E3M3 of Heretic is because I played a shitload more Doom 2 in the 90s than I did Heretic.  I'd wager I'm not alone in this.

[Antroid]

It's kinda wild to me how everyone decided to intentionally misinterpret what OP meant and gang up on him, while talking in absolutes.

 

Today I learned that there are only two settings to realism: on and off. Therefore there is literally no difference between how abstract Doom 1 and Doom 2 are.

Also, pretty sure it's not at all hard to understand that "commercial crap" is just a suboptimal way of calling it a lower effort cash grab.

 

Talking seriously, I can see where OP is coming from. Doom 1 was absolutely less abstract than Doom 2 in my opinion. I also hated the levels with the gimmick names (tricks and traps, barrels of fun in particular) because I enjoyed having Doom 1 at least pretend that it was meant to feel like a place (not look like one, mind you - but the theming was much more solid and consistent). The levels definitely seemed lower effort and more bare when I played the game first time back in the day. And also, I kinda wanted the earth environments to be much more futuristic than they were. Heck, they did it again in Eternal - I was really hoping for some hellified cyberpunk environments...

 

The only problem with the thread is that this sentiment is not new and the horse has been getting beaten for more than two decades.

Edited January 23 by Antroid

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

24 minutes ago, Gifty said:

If only you could talk to the levels, now THAT would be interesting!

They said the same thing about the demons, and look where that got us! First they just want to talk to them, then they want to fuck them. Do you really want to stick your dick in an e4m1?

["JL" was too short]

2 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

They said the same thing about the demons, and look where that got us! First they just want to talk to them, then they want to fuck them. Do you really want to stick your dick in an e4m1?

 

All at once, the design of E3M2 makes sense.

[Li'l devil]

The only good official Doom release is shareware Doom (episode 1), because it's not commercial. Other Doom games are all bad. Commercial crap.

[doomlayman]

1 hour ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

Your "continuation comments" don't explain at all how you came up with the idea of DOOM 2 being "commercial". And why did you finish something several times if you think it's crap?

 

I have nothing to add besides my comments; what you make of them is not my issue; some have agreed with me and we can agree to disagree, that's really fine.

 

It was after finishing Doom 1, 2 and TNT: Evilution several times and finishing various map mods (please have a look at my profile if you haven't already) that I understood Doom 2 has the most crappy map set I have ever played.

[doomlayman]

8 minutes ago, Li'l devil said:

The only good official Doom release is shareware Doom (episode 1), because it's not commercial. Other Doom games are all bad. Commercial crap.

 

lol how do you explain that I don't find Doom1 or TNT: Evilution commercial crap, but fine well invested games?

[Redneckerz]

1 minute ago, doomlayman said:

 

I have nothing to add besides my comments; what you make of them is not my issue; some have agreed with me and we can agree to disagree, that's really fine.

 

It was after finishing Doom 1, 2 and TNT: Evilution several times and finishing various map mods (please have a look at my profile if you haven't already) that I understood Doom 2 has the most crappy map set I have ever played.

I love how you start off saying something bold and then proceed to take a very relaxed position: What you make of them is not my issue. Well yes, they should: You made the thread to begin with.

 

You finish with once more stating that Doom 2 has the most crappy map set ever played. Besides your initial argument, which was poorly at best (And not relevant since you had a bigger question to ask, something which you are routinely ignoring) i feel we are running in circles. You say something bold, and then refrain when people engage.

 

If you don't know how threads works, and judging by the thread history, you don't, then don't make threads if you don't want to discuss them properly.

[doomlayman]

1 minute ago, Redneckerz said:

I love how you start off saying something bold and then proceed to take a very relaxed position: What you make of them is not my issue. Well yes, they should: You made the thread to begin with.

 

You finish with once more stating that Doom 2 has the most crappy map set ever played. Besides your initial argument, which was poorly at best (And not relevant since you had a bigger question to ask, something which you are routinely ignoring) i feel we are running in circles. You say something bold, and then refrain when people engage.

 

If you don't know how threads works, and judging by the thread history, you don't, then don't make threads if you don't want to discuss them properly.

 

My history in the website is a sign that I do know how threads work.

 

I don't even understand your argument, what is your problem with agreeing to disagree? You think the maps are not crappy, I think they are, case closed in my understanding.

 

And I am still open to get Doom 2 alternative map sets who were designed to fix the problems some here agree exist with Doom 2 maps, I even gave one such alternative map set myself.

[magicsofa]

39 minutes ago, Matthias said:

Doom is one of the first 3D FPS games ever

 

The first 3D game was probably Maze War, and if that isn't 3D enough for you then Spasim is close enough and is also a 32-player game with polygonal rendering.

 

...in 1974

[mrthejoshmon]

41 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

They said the same thing about the demons, and look where that got us! First they just want to talk to them, then they want to fuck them. Do you really want to stick your dick in an e4m1?

E4M1? Nah G.

E3M2 however can show me what dat gripper do

[Major Arlene]

what a bold and controversial stance. /s

[CBM]

doom 2 maps may be weird but the world needed that weirdness... many many many fan made megawads have made their own interpretation of what hell on earth could have been if the maps have had more development time and more focus on realism

[roadworx]

31 minutes ago, doomlayman said:

And I am still open to get Doom 2 alternative map sets who were designed to fix the problems some here agree exist with Doom 2 maps, I even gave one such alternative map set myself.

by "alternative map sets", do you mean "megawads"?

[doomlayman]

13 minutes ago, roadworx said:

by "alternative map sets", do you mean "megawads"?

 

Good question; I read that this term is based on a more complicated term "PWAD" which I am not sure if I understand.

 

I just mean to a map mod of say 32 levels aiming to be Hell on Earth Doom 2 but in a much more realistic and sensible manner. 

[JoJo_BadDoom]

Of course Doom 2 is commercial, they put boxed copies of it on store shelves.

[Eric Claus]

What is the Doom 2 maps gripe counter up to now?

[DankMetal]

My honest reaction to this whole thread:

[Redneckerz]

35 minutes ago, doomlayman said:

 

Good question; I read that this term is based on a more complicated term "PWAD" which I am not sure if I understand.

 

I just mean to a map mod of say 32 levels aiming to be Hell on Earth Doom 2 but in a much more realistic and sensible manner. 

A PWAD (Stands for Patch Wad) is in fact an alternative map set by a literal meaning.

 

Your alternative suggestion (A map mod of say 32 levels) is by all means a PWAD, in fact, a megawad even. That's the commonly used term. map mod is not.

 

 

So with that out of the way, now you have to define what on hell on earth you mean with much more realistic and sensible manner. This could mean anything from more realistically textured layouts to the way Doom feels through its movement.

[roadworx]

Just now, Redneckerz said:

So with that out of the way, now you have to define what on hell on earth you mean with much more realistic and sensible manner. This could mean anything from more realistically textured layouts to the way Doom feels through its movement.

i thought that it was fairly obvious that he wanted more realistic environments?

 

@doomlayman while only one of these are a full 32 maps, i do have three wads that i think you'd like.

- going down

- lost civilization

- running late 2

[Uni]

I wholeheartedly disagree. I love all 4 IWADs and they all have interesting and fun levels but if I had to choose one of them, it would Doom 2. Romero and Sandy's work in Doom 2 is nothing short of inspiring. Whenever I feel like looking for ideas, I instantly load Doom 2 and give another go at maps like Monster Condo, Downtown or Industrial Zone. Doom 2 introduced more open sandbox-style levels and more verticality while Doom 1 was mostly corridor heavy and while I can appreciate Doom 1 for its atmosphere and dungeon crawl-type gameplay, I still find Doom 2 to be superior. 

 

 

[fruity lerlups]

i think this forum needs less clickbaity/ragebaity posts, and sont try and rationalize it to yourself woth "im just driving engagement this forum is booooring", youre lowering the quality of the board.