Why do people hate TNT Evilution so much?

[BUYXRAYS]

I have been replaying TNT Evilution recently and I have noticed something,

it isn't even close to as bad as people are claiming.

Although there are some bad maps, there are just as many good ones.

 

Almost every single Iwad is known to have a few bad maps, so why is TNT any different?

 

Edited January 27 by BUYXRAYS

[Rudolph]

I think it got a bad reputation from the fact that it was originally supposed to be a free download, only for the mapset to be turned into a commercial map map published by Id Software.

Edited January 27 by Rudolph

[Maximum Matt]

Plus, it's got quite a few bad maps. 

Like, a lot.

[uhbooh]

Level 31 is a softlock because the yellow is tagged as multiplayer only.

Also most of the new textures look like shit.

[Rudolph]

4 minutes ago, uhbooh said:

Level 31 is a softlock because the yellow is tagged as multiplayer only.

This has been addressed with a patch.

[Faceman2000]

Just as many good ones as bad ones? 50% is still a failing grade my dude.

 

I actually like a lot of TNT maps that people love to hate on, but I still strongly dislike TNT overall. Sure, most of the maps are “fine,” but the consistent mediocrity for most of its runtime adds up to a product that is less than the sum of its parts. It just makes for a dreary, boring experience, punctuated by some good maps (some so good they feel out of place in TNT) and the absolute worst maps out of the original IWADs. Sure, Nirvana sucks, but it never comes close to reaching the frustrating dredge of garbage like Stronghold.

Edited January 27 by Faceman2000

[Mr. Freeze]

I can remember barely two maps, and one is for a gamebreaking bug. The music is great though. 

["JL" was too short]

TNT does have more than a handful of bad maps, but its overall map quality is markedly higher than Doom 2's, for any sane definition of map quality.

If you want to say "I hated both games' maps but TNT didn't offer anything in the way of new monsters or weapons to earn its keep with", then okay, fine, I'll acknowledge that as valid.  But saying TNT's maps are anomalously bad as the IWADs go is just a fundamentally unserious claim.

[roadworx]

even by contemporary standards, tnt was kinda mediocre. memento mori and obituary both have better, more memorable maps than the vast majority of tnt, which came out a year later than those two. and then all the 1996 wads that're better, like mm2, ttp, perdition's gate, and even tnt's other megawad, icarus, came along and poured salt into the wound.

 

tbh it's not even that the maps are horrible or anything, they're just really bland and all blend together into one big ball of meh. at least icarus has lots of ups and downs and a lot of memorable maps.

 

EDIT: to make it clear, i'm not saying tnt is that bad, even if i was overly harsh in this post (sorry bout that). it's okay, its first half is actually pretty good, but as a whole it just falls short of its contemporaries. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT'S HORRIBLE!!!

Edited January 29 by roadworx

[DNSKILL5]

I prefer Plutonia. It’s far more memorable and challenging, feels like a step up in difficulty from Doom 2 for sure, as was intended. I do like TNT, there’s definitely memorable maps and moments for me as a whole, but there’s a lot of other megaWADs of that era that could’ve taken its place in Final Doom that would’ve paired far better alongside Plutonia. 

[Woody101]

I thought both TNT and Plutonia were great 

[Moustachio]

23 minutes ago, DNSKILL5 said:

I do like TNT, there’s definitely memorable maps and moments for me as a whole, but there’s a lot of other megaWADs of that era that could’ve taken its place in Final Doom that would’ve paired far better alongside Plutonia. 

It begs the question of why exactly id decided to buy out TNT specifically if other, more impressive wads were right around the corner.

Edited January 27 by Moustachio

[Faceman2000]

50 minutes ago, jerrysheppy said:

TNT's maps are anomalously bad as the IWADs go is just a fundamentally unserious claim

Good to know I’m being fundamentally unserious.

 

Stronghold, which I mentioned above, mistakes hitscan attrition for challenge and has some of the worst progression I’ve ever seen. There is nothing in any of the other three IWADs as unfun as that map. The less said about Habitat the better - its inclusion is frankly embarrassing. It’s either unfinished, lazy, or incompetent. Again, no other IWAD map compares. Administration Center outstays its welcome about five minutes in and then has the gall to continue for another hour. At least Doom II’s rough maps are short.

 

But actually I’m just kidding I guess hehe.

[Cutman 999]

Because mill, administration center and habitat are in there.

 

Also, the rest just doesn't stand out that much at all, and have mediocre gameplay even compared to the other iwads.

[Rudolph]

8 minutes ago, Moustachio said:

It begs the question of why exactly id decided to buy out TNT specifically if other, more impressive wads were right around the corner.

Indeed. Has anyone ever asked John Romero about it? According to Doom Wiki, he is the one who made a deal with TeamTNT to commercialize the mapset.

[DNSKILL5]

Could’ve just been the right moment, TNT was near release and all that. Other WADs that had already been released online for free wouldn’t have fit what he was looking for.

[LadyMistDragon]

3 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Indeed. Has anyone ever asked John Romero about it? According to Doom Wiki, he is the one who made a deal with TeamTNT to commercialize the mapset.

Why TNT was picked over Memento Mori II or whatever? Idk, maybe the packaging for TNT was a little bit better but regardless, the basic idea was just to milk that cash cow and 'quality standards' were an afterthought by that time. That's part of the reason why Perdition's Gate didn't get picked up by id because they'd decided 'the window has closed,' which was just their way of saying that 'we have enough content for Final Doom.'

[Tycitron]

8 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Indeed. Has anyone ever asked John Romero about it? According to Doom Wiki, he is the one who made a deal with TeamTNT to commercialize the mapset.

The closest thing to this i can remember is asking him what he thought of TNT on one of his SIGIL 2 streams, and i remember him saying that he really likes it and Plutonia and how he was the one who made the deal and whatnot, but idk if he played it anytime in the past decade or two lol.

[Explorer of Time]

I thought TNT was fine, and had more fun with it than the other half of Final Doom. It had better visual design and it was better-balanced for pistol starts and lower difficulties than Plutonia was. It did use chaingunners too often, though.

 

Plutonia felt like it was only designed for UV continuous play and was really badly balanced on lower difficulties, with several maps not even bothering to lower the monster count for ITYTD/HNTR/HMP at all. It was also really hard to pistol start some maps. I straight up couldn't beat MAP21: Slayer on an ITYTD pistol start because it sent a massive amount of monsters to attack you right from the start, before you get your first non-pistol gun, and it was also one of the maps that used the UV monster count for all difficulties on top of that. Also, Plutonia heavily limited your chaingun ammo, and I like using the chaingun.

[ReaperAA]

7 hours ago, roadworx said:

even by contemporary standards, tnt was kinda mediocre. memento mori and obituary both have better, more memorable maps than the vast majority of tnt, which came out a year later than those two. and then all the 1996 wads that're better, like mm2, ttp, perdition's gate, and even tnt's other megawad, icarus, came along and poured salt into the wound.

 

tbh it's not even that the maps are horrible or anything, they're just really bland and all blend together into one big ball of meh. at least icarus has lots of ups and downs and a lot of memorable maps.

 

Personally speaking, I never found MM1 better than Evilution as a whole (don't know about obituary, but I do know that it is not a full 32 map megawad) though MM1 still could've been a good candidate.

 

MM2 is for sure better both MM1 and TNT, but didn't it release like a couple of months after Final Doom? Similar case for Icarus and Perdition's Gate I think.

 

By the time Romero contacted TeamTNT, TNT and MM1 were probably the two best 32 map megawads out there.

Edited January 27 by ReaperAA

[Li'l devil]

This and "TNT vs Plutonia" just never ends (as well as "Doom 1 vs Doom 2"). People like different wads for different reasons, some like wads that provide challenge and consistency, others like wads that are quirky or try to experiment. Neither is better, so if some people hate a certain wad..  well, cool, but I don't see a reason to care about that. There's a group of haters for pretty much anything out there, including Doom 1 and Doom 2, heh.

Edited January 27 by Li'l devil

[roadworx]

don't listen to lil devil! they're trying to stop us from our favorite pastime, shitting on tnt!!!!!!!

[Biodegradable]

I certainly don't HATE TNT by any real metric, but I've tried to play through it several times and the level design is just horrifically boring most of the time. Most maps feel very slapdash and rushed with unimaginative combat and tedious progression. On the bright side, the music kicks arse and is useful for people to use the midis in other WAD, and the former TNT members still floating around in the community have gone on to produce way better stuff since then.

[fruity lerlups]

considerable amount of dud levels
habitat being notorious

 

i enjoy it tbh, its not too difficult and has my favourite map30

[Li'l devil]

11 minutes ago, roadworx said:

don't listen to lil devil! they're trying to stop us from our favorite pastime, shitting on tnt!!!!!!!

Well you're basically right, I think a lot of people here (who are not newcomers) just love doing that, it's pretty much like a tradition for advanced Doom fans, and to promote Plutonia instead. Even more advanced fans like disliking Doom 1 for not having Doom 2 content.

I personally grew to enjoy everything (well almost, some specific maps make me mad), so my gripe isn't the opinions themselves, but rather just how common these topics come up. Like every month or so.

[eanasir]

TNT is kinda bad though, it gets boring after the first few levels.

 

BUT there are some levels in TNT that aren't too bad, it's just that TNT just has a ton of monotonous levels. 

Edited January 27 by eanasir

[Xeogred]

I've replayed it plenty across the various official releases/ports and usually have a good time with it. I can always see how it doesn't land very well for others though. The quality and level design styles are a little all over. I do like the gray/red techbase aesthetic most of it goes for over Plutonia. But yeah last time I replayed both I finally did PS runs of them and thought TNT was pretty unbalanced that way, Plutonia was a lot better.

 

For my tastes, the spiritual successor Revilution is incredible and I'm hopeful TNT2 finally finishes up soon. The funny thing being I'm not really sure if anyone can nail down exactly what TNT's "theme" is, other than the gray/red techbase look that I mentioned. But yeah Revilution is just one of the best megawads of the last handful of years I'd say.

[Gifty]

It's just got the most asinine, obscure level progression possible in a way that neither feels like a real place nor a compellingly abstract one. Just pure, arbitrary mid-90s switch hunt logic. That and the combat encounters are just "fill huge empty areas with hitscanners" with no sense of intentionality or pacing. Every couple years I try to replay it for nostalgia's sake, and I can never get past the first level cluster.

Edited January 27 by Gifty

[RHhe82]

I don't think (nearly) anyone hates Evilution. "Least favourite IWAD" does not equate to god-awful. I believe people just don't care much for TNT because it has far too many 'mediocre at best' sort of maps that bare little replay value.

[Shepardus]

2 hours ago, Faceman2000 said:

Stronghold, which I mentioned above, mistakes hitscan attrition for challenge and has some of the worst progression I’ve ever seen. There is nothing in any of the other three IWADs as unfun as that map.

Stronghold's the only TNT map I really enjoy, and hitscan attrition is the best kind of challenge.