Why do people hate TNT Evilution so much?

[Li'l devil]

I don't understand why people hate Habitat specifically either. It's a good map. It has everything you need: a variety of environments, outdoor section, underground section, unconventional progression, barons and pain elementals, mazes, cleverly hidden secrets and especially one of the keys, and it has a real sense of place, you really feel like you're in a habitat.

[JoJo_BadDoom]

TNT is alright. Not mind blowing, sometimes a bit dull, and there are some real stinkers in there, but overall it's still enjoyable for me on average. Having said that, I can't remember the last time I played it - I probably tapped out when I hit Metal

[Logamuffin]

Because it sucks, no offense. A lot of people in this thread take a more measured approach and say that it’s ‘’alright”, but I actively dislike TNT. So many of the maps are just awful. Obviously the famous ones: Habitat, Mill and Admin Center, but also Central Processing, Metal, Mount Pain, Baron’s Den etc. It overall just adds up to a miserable experience. The only maps I remember liking even a little were Wormhole, Prison and Hanger. I’ll probably decide to replay TNT at some point and I dread when that day comes.

[NiGHTMARE]

5 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

.

 

By the time Romero contacted TeamTNT, TNT and MM1 were probably the two best 32 map megawads out there.

 

I was going to say that I prefer both NJ Doom 2 and BF_Thud! over TNT, however both have less than 32 maps (the version of NJD2 on ID Games, at least) so you're probably right :)

 

Edit: There's also Cleimos 2. I do remember preferring that over TNT as well, though it must be over a decade since I last played it.

Edited January 27 by NiGHTMARE

[Faceman2000]

6 hours ago, Li'l devil said:

a real sense of place, you really feel like you're in a habitat.

The first room has a giant door tiled door that opens into the sky.

[yakfak]

i'm a TNT.wad MAP11 and MAP14 gamer tbh

I think they're two of the best commercial doom levels

but its music feels unfinished and it has a depressing edge to it sometimes... I think it's easy to become tired of TNT if you try to play it all at once. hint: don't try to play megawads all at once

(getting lost in the Mill is your own fault. you failed that map not vice versa =P)

Edited January 27 by yakfak

[Celestin]

Here's a hot take. By 1996 standards, TNT is more impressive than Plutonia, with new midis, adventurous vibe and somewhat successful attempts at realism. However, it just aged poorly. The grand maps (like O'Brien's trilogy) feel underpopulated or just assaulting you with faraway hitscanners. Plutonia with its combat-oriented design is just so much more fun to play.

[Rudolph]

9 hours ago, LadyMistDragon said:

Why TNT was picked over Memento Mori II or whatever? Idk, maybe the packaging for TNT was a little bit better but regardless, the basic idea was just to milk that cash cow and 'quality standards' were an afterthought by that time. That's part of the reason why Perdition's Gate didn't get picked up by id because they'd decided 'the window has closed,' which was just their way of saying that 'we have enough content for Final Doom.'

Also, from what I have played of Perdition's Gate so far, I think it is worse than TNT Evilution and even Hell 2 Pay.

[Akagi666]

Because it sucks. The levels are sloppily designed and have a lot of empty space and levels filled with a million imps and zomebie men. It's just a big mess. It's not the worst thing ever but it's really, really poor compared to Plutonia. If it wasn't chosen for Final Doom it would just be another crappy 90's WAD.

 

Plutonia > Doom II > TNT > Doom

Edited January 27 by Akagi666

[Faceman2000]

29 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Also, from what I have played of Perdition's Gate so far, I think it is worse than TNT Evilution and even Hell 2 Pay.

Ah heck nah. PG is easily the best of the three. Tom Mustaine maps are my jam.

[DJVCardMaster]

Misconceptions about everyone hating TNT are generated long time ago just because it was added to the "Top 10 most infamous WADs of all time", just because it was controversial as it became an IWAD a week before it being released to the public. 

The infamous WAD thing is outdated, by 20 years, it has no relevance by now. And a drama that happened almost 27 years ago is even more irrelevant, as most of us weren't even born at that point. 

[Naan]

TNT Evilution was alright to me. The only real bad map I remember alongside with Habitat was Metal. I also liked the MAP18-21 arc despite being one of the most cited as "bad" maps, but I guess the long, epic, Eternal Doom-ish maps are my taste. I also never understood what's wrong with Baron's Den.

 

I espiecally love most of the custom music used. Tom Mustaine stuff are bangers.

[Doomlover77]

I honestly thought TNT was better than Plutonia. Some great music and maps especially System Control, Prison, Processing Area, Mill and Pharaoh are my faves. I made progress much better in TNT than Plutonia where I wasn’t dying so often compared with Plutonia. Lastly TNT’s difficulty was just right where Plutonia was way too hard. Does anyone agree ? @Doomlover77  

Edited January 27 by Doomlover77

[hybridial]

I think TNT Evilution is very good. 

 

I don't even hate Habitat. It is the most rushed and ugly map, but I think it has some cool things in it and I don't hate the corridor design because it makes using the chaingun pretty fun, it's actually a few spaces away from my least favourite map. 

 

Honestly I think the arguments that most of these maps are bad don't hold up. Mount Pain and Central Processing particularly are impressive pieces of work, especially Mount Pain which I think is up there with some of the best commercial Doom maps. My personal favourite of the set is actually Deepest Reaches, because it has a really interesting layout and progression which involves a great descent into it's hellish parts, I presume what the name of the map refers to. TNT Evilution is divisive, I don't think I've ever seen a game's levels be so hotly contested on whether they are good or bad, but I think that arguments could be made for all of them. 

 

I think my least favourite map is Power Control, as it has quite a boring layout but that's really in the minority with the set. 

[Rudolph]

19 minutes ago, Faceman2000 said:

Ah heck nah. PG is easily the best of the three. Tom Mustaine maps are my jam.

It is not bad overall, just incredibly bland: the maps look worse than the average TNT maps and they are not as creative and experimental as Hell 2 Pay.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

[valkiriforce]

Because we as a society have fallen from grace.

[Xeogred]

Ah dang, people hating on Metal. I was curious if that was the map I had in mind with the weird platform/puzzle stuff at the end and yup... I have to admit that map has grown on me over time haha.

[OceanMadman]

Instead of saying why I don't like TNT, I'd like to say why I DO like TNT.

 

So, if I had to stay with only one Iwad for the rest of my life and the options were Doom, Doom 2 and TNT, well... Ok, maybe I'd stay with doom 1, but, if Doom wasn't there, I'd stay with TNT (No plutonia because I haven't played it). I have to say that TNT is far from being perfect, but I think people tend more to see its flaws more than recognizing its achievements.

 

The wad as a whole, despite its different mappers and styles, has a peculiar exploratory and sci-fi vibe and I don't think was very common back then. The whole thing feels like watching an entire movie, which is reinforced by the some times enormous maps and the new great music. And atmosphere like that is something I appreciate a lot. Even the most generic maps such as techbases and etc. don't feel as generic to me because of the context of the wad. Those generic maps stop feeling generic thanks to how the whole thing is like a big adventure, so those maps that could be just "filler" to me feel like they are just several scenes that even if maybe they aren't as important, they help to make the whole thing be more full in a way, if I'm explaining myself properly.

 

I've also seen people criticizing the lack of enemies and action in some maps. In my opinion that helps make some of the maps give a quieter, more mysterious feel, and again, I think it's quite interesting for a wad to have something like that instead of just being action-packed from start to finish. It's strange to me how projects like MyHouse that don't emphasize so much on good combat, and more on atmosphere, music and so on are so acclaimed, but then Evilution, which started with this almost 30 years can be so criticized for being so "quiet" at times.

 

And then the maps. Some maps aren't good, that's for sure, (Yeah, we know which one) but I find some of the stuff there as interesting as stuff being released today. You have Prison, that with help of its music, it makes it feel like an adventure in which you are trying to escape from that place and so on. You have wormhole, that with its music and its interesting concept, it really feels like something evil is lurking around, always watching you. Also, I kinda like how the copy of the map is optional. It helps to make it feel like a secret you aren't supposed to find or something like that. You have Caribbean and Heck, which even if they don't emphasize atmosphere, they are very fun to play. You have Lunar Mining Project, with its very nice doomcute. Then Shipping/Respawning, with again more doomcute that make it feel like a real place. Mount Pain, with its great atmosphere. And then Pharaoh and Central Processing, which are my favorite maps fom the set. Pharaoh is quiet, mysterious, and even kind of depressing. That last feeling being something very unusual in doom, even today.The custom textures in the map that are unique in it, stuff like the floating cyberdemon, the huge areas that some times are kind of empty, make the whole thing feel very surreal, it gives the feeling of a dream. And the music that was chosen for the map fits perfectly. Then Central Processing. Another map that feels quiet, mysterious, has a great atmosphere, and a midi that fits perfectly with the map and the feeling it gives (Honestly, a lot of the atmosphere is created because of the music.) And again, huge areas that make me feel even kind of lonely. Also, the map has a lot of sections and styles, which some people might not like, but in this case, I think the variety helps it to make it feel like an adventure which takes time and patience to finish. It's very cinematographic. I think It's one of my favorite maps of all time.

 

Also, the custom textures. Yeah, many aren't very great. But I think that somehow their weirdness and ugliness helps with the strange and surreal atmosphere those maps can have. it feels like going back in a time machine to the 90s. Even though at the time I was just a vague idea in my parents' minds, I love that.

 

And the new music is great. No complains.

[Individualised]

I definitely feel that there is an unspoken bias against TNT. It's not any worse than Doom 2's worst maps. As I've become more familiar with Doom level design I've started to recognise a bit more that maps like Metal have some issues, but I could also point out similar issues in Doom 1 and Doom 2. Plutonia may overall have a more consistent quality, but I don't think the quality difference between TNT and Plutonia is as large as people make out; and that's not a criticism against the Casalis, I just like TNT. I feel like people don't criticise Doom 1 and 2 as much as they do Final Doom due to the latter not being developed in-house, and I think there are also many people who grew up with the former games and never played Final Doom til later. I always had access to all of the IWADs since I first played Doom, so I've always been familiar with them and never had that bias. In fact Doom 2 is probably my least favourite of the IWADs, so it's the one I'm least familiar with.

Edited January 27 by Individualised

[Yisue]

20 minutes ago, OceanMadman said:

Instead of saying why I don't like TNT, I'd like to say why I DO like TNT.

 

So, if I had to stay with only one Iwad for the rest of my life and the options were Doom, Doom 2 and TNT, well... Ok, maybe I'd stay with doom 1, but, if Doom wasn't there, I'd stay with TNT (No plutonia because I haven't played it). I have to say that TNT is far from being perfect, but I think people tend more to see its flaws more than recognizing its achievements.

 

The wad as a whole, despite its different mappers and styles, has a peculiar exploratory and sci-fi vibe and I don't think was very common back then. The whole thing feels like watching an entire movie, which is reinforced by the some times enormous maps and the new great music. And atmosphere like that is something I appreciate a lot. Even the most generic maps such as techbases and etc. don't feel as generic to me because of the context of the wad. Those generic maps stop feeling generic thanks to how the whole thing is like a big adventure, so those maps that could be just "filler" to me feel like they are just several scenes that even if maybe they aren't as important, they help to make the whole thing be more full in a way, if I'm explaining myself properly.

 

I've also seen people criticizing the lack of enemies and action in some maps. In my opinion that helps make some of the maps give a quieter, more mysterious feel, and again, I think it's quite interesting for a wad to have something like that instead of just being action-packed from start to finish. It's strange to me how projects like MyHouse that don't emphasize so much on good combat, and more on atmosphere, music and so on are so acclaimed, but then Evilution, which started with this almost 30 years can be so criticized for being so "quiet" at times.

 

And then the maps. Some maps aren't good, that's for sure, (Yeah, we know which one) but I find some of the stuff there as interesting as stuff being released today. You have Prison, that with help of its music, it makes it feel like an adventure in which you are trying to escape from that place and so on. You have wormhole, that with its music and its interesting concept, it really feels like something evil is lurking around, always watching you. Also, I kinda like how the copy of the map is optional. It helps to make it feel like a secret you aren't supposed to find or something like that. You have Caribbean and Heck, which even if they don't emphasize atmosphere, they are very fun to play. You have Lunar Mining Project, with its very nice doomcute. Then Shipping/Respawning, with again more doomcute that make it feel like a real place. Mount Pain, with its great atmosphere. And then Pharaoh and Central Processing, which are my favorite maps fom the set. Pharaoh is quiet, mysterious, and even kind of depressing. That last feeling being something very unusual in doom, even today.The custom textures in the map that are unique in it, stuff like the floating cyberdemon, the huge areas that some times are kind of empty, make the whole thing feel very surreal, it gives the feeling of a dream. And the music that was chosen for the map fits perfectly. Then Central Processing. Another map that feels quiet, mysterious, has a great atmosphere, and a midi that fits perfectly with the map and the feeling it gives (Honestly, a lot of the atmosphere is created because of the music.) And again, huge areas that make me feel even kind of lonely. Also, the map has a lot of sections and styles, which some people might not like, but in this case, I think the variety helps it to make it feel like an adventure which takes time and patience to finish. It's very cinematographic. I think It's one of my favorite maps of all time.

 

Also, the custom textures. Yeah, many aren't very great. But I think that somehow their weirdness and ugliness helps with the strange and surreal atmosphere those maps can have. it feels like going back in a time machine to the 90s. Even though at the time I was just a vague idea in my parents' minds, I love that.

 

And the new music is great. No complains.

Tnt evilution > toda la industria metalúrgica chilena 

[NiGHTMARE]

1 hour ago, DJVCardMaster said:

The infamous WAD thing is outdated, by 20 years, it has no relevance by now. And a drama that happened almost 27 years ago is even more irrelevant, as most of us weren't even born at that point. 

 

LOL, that makes me feel old.

[LadyMistDragon]

Just to give my 2 cents..

 

My perspective is probably the closest to roadworx, though with the added emphasis that there are some seriously high highs (Nukage Processing, Prison, Pharoah, Mill, Heck Stronghold (I despise hitscanners, but this is huge exception to the rule) System Control) maps that are generally good but wanting in an it factor (River Styx, Steel Work,  and Shipping/Respawning) maps that are mixed in most ways (2 out of 3 of Drake O'Brien's maps, Dead Zone, Deepest Reaches, and Crater), dull maps (Baron's Den, Quarry, Caribbean (I think partly because "Into Sandy's City" doesn't really belong here and the design is just dull) Human BBQ) and some maps that should have either been aborted on completion or maybe allowed to cook for a little longer (Habitat and especially, Administration Center (in contrast to the other 2 O'Brien maps there's basically zero effort to realize the concept) and fucking Metal. These last two maps are just so indicative of what people hate about TNT that there's basically zero room for redemption.

Edited January 27 by LadyMistDragon

[riktoi]

It exists much like the other IWADs.

[TheCarsEdge]

i finished the other main pc dooms, except for tnt

nothing about it is interesting, it's really really boring

around map 6 i get lost and then give up because frankly, i'm better be off playing an actually good wad instead of this snoozefest

[roadworx]

31 minutes ago, LadyMistDragon said:

Just to give my 2 cents..

 

My perspective is probably the closest to roadworx, though with the added emphasis that there are some seriously high highs (Nukage Processing, Prison, Pharoah, Mill, Heck Stronghold (I despise hitscanners, but this is huge exception to the rule) System Control) maps that are generally good but wanting in an it factor (River Styx, Steel Work,  and Shipping/Respawning) maps that are mixed in most ways (2 out of 3 of Drake O'Brien's maps, Dead Zone, Deepest Reaches, and Crater), dull maps (Baron's Den, Quarry, Caribbean (I think partly because "Into Sandy's City" doesn't really belong here and the design is just dull) Human BBQ) and some maps that should have either been aborted on completion or maybe allowed to cook for a little longer (Habitat and especially, Administration Center (in contrast to the other 2 O'Brien maps there's basically zero effort to realize the concept) and fucking Metal. These last two maps are just so indicative of what people hate about TNT that there's basically zero room for redemption.

i probably should've said this myself tbh. i was admittedly being a bit harsh, because there absolutely are great maps in tnt, and a lot of the maps are generally okayish, though not particularly notable. however, that's the primary issue, at least for me: at a certain point a lot of the wad's initial charm starts to wear off, and it winds up feeling more and more like you're trudging through bland, mediocre maps for the rest of it. there's still a few decent ones after that point, but i wouldn't say that any of them are good enough to make up for the surrounding dullness.

 

plus, a lot of the maps do feel somewhat similar and lack an identity of their own, which just makes the experience even worse. at least in something like memento mori, a lot of the maps are somewhat memorable, even if they do suck

[mrthejoshmon]

 

I have depicted myself as the Chad, you as the loser, I have won this argument.

[hybridial]

Just from my perspective, I don't know how anyone could enjoy playing Wolfenstein 3D for any length of time over even playing TNT Evilution's weaker maps.

 

Because I certainly can't, I got to like map 4 of Wolfenstein 3D and am okay to never play it again. I know it has it's place, but it's not me playing it. A Doom map has to try a lot harder to be bad than any of TNT's to make me feel the same way. 

[Fonze]

People only hate on tnt because they know it's the best of the bunch 😋

 

TNT is the best of the iwads. It has the most memorable maps, taking the player on a real journey in the same way that doom 2 expanded upon the exploration and map sizes of doom 1. Maps like wormhole, mt pain, and others are perhaps among the most conceptually notable maps in all of the iwads, up with e2m9 in my book for being progenitors of modern design, (or more specifically slaughtermap design in the case of e2m9)

It also has the best music, the least bad map30, and some cool encounters scattered throughout. Plus, heretic e1m1 easter egg in map08 metal... top quality wad 😄

[JustHeziel]

I remember TNT mainly for three things:

 

1) Good OST, MAP02 is kind of loud.

 

2) from my profile description: 

 

 "Yes, I love TNT's first map".

 

3) A very long long long hallway with 2 shotgunners and a zombieman.