What is the correct way to financially donate to a modder for creating something we think that should be out there?

[magicsofa]

6 hours ago, doomlayman said:

Do you really compare working a few years (could be 5 years or more) for a large company with making a mod for 3-6 months? I mean come on man, I don't think you really do that comparison and by the way, other people could pay more than 100 USD, perhaps 250-500 USD, how's that sound to you?

 

Contract work can often cost more per hour than an hourly employee. An hourly job usually provides facilities, equipment, training, and benefits. As a contractor or free-lance worker I would get none of that. I would be responsible for maintaining a space to work in, a working computer, my own physical health, etc. Also I would have probably spent many hours learning the relevant skills required for the job without being paid. All of that gets factored in to the hourly rate for a contractor. You should be prepared to pay a bare minimum of $25 per hour for this kind of work. Some people will accept less than that for their own reasons, maybe they are an amateur trying to get their name on something, desperate for money, living in a country where $20 USD goes a long way, or just really want to work on the project.

 

Most of us work on on our own mods for free because we want to, and contribute time when we can. And when life requires us to focus on other things it gets pushed to the side. Working for someone else, especially when getting paid, means a bigger obligation to spend time on it which is more stressful. I wouldn't work for anyone who didn't have a very clear plan where I could actually calculate an estimate of the hours needed to complete tasks. One time I offered to help with a Hexen project that looked interesting to me... next thing I know the person was trying to order me around, expecting me to have played through the maps they had within a short time, and basically treating me like I was "on the clock." And I was working FOR FREE. Needless to say, I quit before wasting any more time on it. So just keep in mind that people will also be considering your leadership and project management skills in addition to the compensation you offer.

[Doomkid]

Hello kind sir or madam I am reaching out to you for your business proposal in the Doom modding. I am a Saudi Royal and my family has many generations of wealth to be having shared. I have read many big thick heavy and large books in American language. Please send me US 500.000$ USD and I will refer you to Notional Royal Bank of Canada (Canada) who can send the money to me for approval of funds received.
 

Once money have been received in the form of digital funds such as iTunes or Steam gift card you will receive email with full instructions on receiving your doom maps. Please go to local store and buy iTunes or Steam gift cardsend the funds as soon as possible. and GOD bless

[Koko Ricky]

I think compensating modders should be seen as more normal and acceptable. It's tacky to charge for a mod, but optional tip jars seem perfectly ethical. I wouldn't mind also seeing fundraising endeavors that can say, provide a budget for a modding group. 

 

At the moment, there isn't much of an economy for this sort of thing, which is a shame because imagine what a group could accomplish if they were budgeted enough to work full-time for a month or two. Instead of projects spending inordinate amounts of time in dev hell, or being outright abandoned, we could see a new phase in which extremely ambitious mods are released by teams that are able to make a living off it, even if just temporarily. 

[Doomkid]

What you're describing sounds perfectly ethical and reasonable on paper, but I think the idea just leaves a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths. After years and years and years of Doom mods being made, including numerous with "whole new game" amounts of assets with zero financial incentive to do so, it's reasonable to ask "why get money involved now?"..

 

Beyond all that, I have never once seen a thread about people having "paid positions" as modders that was even remotely realistic. They're usually either offering the equivalent of 5 cents an hour, plainly lacking any clear vision beyond "can u make Batman mod for me", or obviously written by an 11 year old... Or, most often, all of the above.
 

I'm trying to think of what a proposal that isn't completely absurd would look like.. "Hey Doomworld - I have 5 grand to spend on this mod I want made (already a baffling concept..) and I'm going to pay 5 of you $1,000 each to make some assets for me: One of you will make 5 maps, one of you will create all the sprites for 3 enemies... and by the way, you'll be working at well below minimum wage, but think of the PASSION and FUN in making a whole new game.."

 

It just sounds insane no matter how I try to slice it, particularly for the person funding it. Is this all being done with the understanding that there will be zero financial returns? I have spent that much on things purely for pleasure, but.. those things existed, lol. Imagine spending the money and not being a huge fan of the maps? Who cops that loss? Surely the mapper isn't expected to keep at it til one of their layouts is "approved".

 

If a team organically comes together with a mutual passion, that is totally different. In that scenario though, the vision is what is fuelling the creation, not the promise of a small sum of money that could be made at an actual job in a matter of a few shifts..

 

I'm not trying to be wholly negative about the very prospect, because I think it could happen in a realistic and reasonable way, theoretically.. but these threads are usually just pie in the sky and overtly silly on the face of it.

[prfunky]

       

        

            

 

 

                   

[doomlayman]

8 hours ago, OniriA said:

Google translate has become much better then it was years ago. If you really want to learn from a book you can translate the tutorials using translate into your language, copy them into a word/pdf document, print them and make your "big thick book" 

 

PS: If you're really passionate about something, you'll find a way to learn it no matter the barrier.

 

 

If I organize the tutorials for a printed book, then I don't need to translate them :) but I am no authority to label this tutorial or that tutorial as reasonable or good for start, a tutorial can be badly phrased or undidactic (I am not saying all or even most tutorials are, just that some could be).

 

Anyway, I pretty much agree with you until it gets to graphic design. I Can tell you this, it's easier to develop skill in mathematics than in graphics design, that's at least, from my life experience. In my opinion, being graphics "gifted" is much more something one borns with then develops.

[doomlayman]

2 hours ago, Doomkid said:

What you're describing sounds perfectly ethical and reasonable on paper, but I think the idea just leaves a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths. After years and years and years of Doom mods being made, including numerous with "whole new game" amounts of assets with zero financial incentive to do so, it's reasonable to ask "why get money involved now?"..

 

Beyond all that, I have never once seen a thread about people having "paid positions" as modders that was even remotely realistic. They're usually either offering the equivalent of 5 cents an hour, plainly lacking any clear vision beyond "can u make Batman mod for me", or obviously written by an 11 year old... Or, most often, all of the above.
 

I'm trying to think of what a proposal that isn't completely absurd would look like.. "Hey Doomworld - I have 5 grand to spend on this mod I want made (already a baffling concept..) and I'm going to pay 5 of you $1,000 each to make some assets for me: One of you will make 5 maps, one of you will create all the sprites for 3 enemies... and by the way, you'll be working at well below minimum wage, but think of the PASSION and FUN in making a whole new game.."

 

It just sounds insane no matter how I try to slice it, particularly for the person funding it. Is this all being done with the understanding that there will be zero financial returns? I have spent that much on things purely for pleasure, but.. those things existed, lol. Imagine spending the money and not being a huge fan of the maps? Who cops that loss? Surely the mapper isn't expected to keep at it til one of their layouts is "approved".

 

If a team organically comes together with a mutual passion, that is totally different. In that scenario though, the vision is what is fuelling the creation, not the promise of a small sum of money that could be made at an actual job in a matter of a few shifts..

 

I'm not trying to be wholly negative about the very prospect, because I think it could happen in a realistic and reasonable way, theoretically.. but these threads are usually just pie in the sky and overtly silly on the face of it.

 

I think you have seen a lot of posts like this and would know what to avoid if you develop a small economy model for this. I'll glad to see a post from you about this in the future !

 

Thank you for your positive approach to this general idea and about the royal Saudi bank account - salam aleikum !

[OniriA]

1 hour ago, doomlayman said:

Anyway, I pretty much agree with you until it gets to graphic design. I Can tell you this, it's easier to develop skill in mathematics than in graphics design, that's at least, from my life experience. In my opinion, being graphics "gifted" is much more something one borns with then develops.

 

I used to believe the same thing about music, I always thought it was made by people who were way more gifted and talented then me. 

When I used to visit Doomworld and other doom related forums during my childhood and teenage years I always thought that Doom wads were made by people that were also way more gifted then me and that I could never dream of making something as awe inspiring. 

 

Anyway, I think that's a different discussion altogether about motivation and desire to learn things yourself. Seems your heart is mostly into graphic design but you're either still doubting yourself or have concluded that the technical level is way too high for you to learn it. I can't speak for you, because everyone's different (and life factors also play a role), but every creative skill can be divided into 2 parts. Technical know how, and creative idea. You can't do much with a creative idea if you don't have the technical knowledge of how the tools function, what they do etc. It seems you're mostly struggling with the technical part of it.

 

You need to learn the rules first in order to be able to break them. Also.. everything can be learned, even graphic design. So I don't agree with your conclusion. Start with lightning for example, take photos of your environment, analyze how light influences things. Pay attention to your environment. Again if you really have a passion for something you will find a way learn it. Because your heart will be into it. 

[Amaruψ]

18 hours ago, JustAthel said:

I actually don't even know if donating for mods is a normal thing that happens around here -- do people normally monetize normal maps / gameplay mods and not full on total conversions / full games?

 

Not really monetize custom maps, that's a practice that I've thankfully never come across. Some do include donation links (like myself) in the profile but don't specifically ask for donations, so if you like their work, it's there if you want to show monetary gratitude. 

[doomlayman]

W

1 hour ago, OniriA said:

 

I used to believe the same thing about music, I always thought it was made by people who were way more gifted and talented then me. 

When I used to visit Doomworld and other doom related forums during my childhood and teenage years I always thought that Doom wads were made by people that were also way more gifted then me and that I could never dream of making something as awe inspiring. 

 

Anyway, I think that's a different discussion altogether about motivation and desire to learn things yourself. Seems your heart is mostly into graphic design but you're either still doubting yourself or have concluded that the technical level is way too high for you to learn it. I can't speak for you, because everyone's different (and life factors also play a role), but every creative skill can be divided into 2 parts. Technical know how, and creative idea. You can't do much with a creative idea if you don't have the technical knowledge of how the tools function, what they do etc. It seems you're mostly struggling with the technical part of it.

 

You need to learn the rules first in order to be able to break them. Also.. everything can be learned, even graphic design. So I don't agree with your conclusion. Start with lightning for example, take photos of your environment, analyze how light influences things. Pay attention to your environment. Again if you really have a passion for something you will find a way learn it. Because your heart will be into it. 

 

Well, speaking for myself, I agree with the general approach but not about graphic design:

Unlike virtually any other program, image manipulation programs always felt to me very complex and dense and very not accessible with tons of functions in small windows with small text anywhere and too many ways to do the same thing.

Graphics creativity is in my opinion something one borns with or develops very early in life, how to shape things, how to combine shapes with colors, not necessarily with an emphasis on UX and accessibility in the long term.

Edited February 6 by doomlayman

[roadworx]

13 minutes ago, Amaruψ said:

 

Not really monetize custom maps, that's a practice that I've thankfully never come across.

people have tried to do it before, but it never ends well for them. grezzo 2's author initially trying to sell it is the biggest one that comes to mind for me

[DNSKILL5]

You don’t necessarily have to learn graphics design in the constraints of Doom modding for it to be applicable for that purpose. You can find a book to learn graphic design, then take what you learned to Doom modding. 

Edited February 6 by DNSKILL5

[Amaruψ]

1 hour ago, roadworx said:

people have tried to do it before, but it never ends well for them. grezzo 2's author initially trying to sell it is the biggest one that comes to mind for me

 

Makes sense that it might fail to be a commercial product. With a good amount of amazing content up for free... it's kinda hard for one to market it commercially.

[Mr. Freeze]

The only time payment is the norm is when you're making a commercial product. 

[roadworx]

57 minutes ago, Amaruψ said:

 

Makes sense that it might fail to be a commercial product. With a good amount of amazing content up for free... it's kinda hard for one to market it commercially.

well, and the whole "every single bit of the mod is plagiarized" part, but yeah that too

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

12 minutes ago, roadworx said:

well, and the whole "every single bit of the mod is plagiarized" part, but yeah that too

Plus it's THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL DOOM MOD EVER - GREZZO DUE MOST SHOCKING DOOM WAD

 

Imagine going to look at PC games at Walmart and seeing Grezzo 2 and Moonman just sitting there on the shelf next to Bejeweled 3.

[uber]

4 hours ago, doomlayman said:

W

 

Well, speaking for myself, I agree with the general approach but not about graphic design:

Unlike virtually any other program, image manipulation programs always felt to me very complex and dense and very not accessible with tons of functions in small windows with small text anywhere and too many ways to do the same thing.

Graphics creativity is in my opinion something one borns with or develops very early in life, how to shape things, how to combine shapes with colors, not necessarily with an emphasis on UX and accessibility in the long term.

 

I think you're not really approaching image editors properly then. My advice for anyone starting out is to begin with something simple - changing the coloring of an image, copypasting objects or applying basic filters... which, if not intuitive enough to figure out on your own, are bound to have easy-to-follow instructions for whatever program you're using. As you go on and get more ambitious/experienced, you'll naturally come up with more complex ideas that you'll either a) figure out how to achieve from the knowledge you've gained of your tools, or b) will have to look up elsewhere, which won't be as daunting since you'll already be more familiar with your software or just graphic design in general.

 

As for the latter part of your message - it's not necessarily true that creativity just gets "locked off" once you get too old. The initial spark that gets a lot of us interested tends to come fairly early on, sure, but I've met people that had absolutely no background in any sort of visual arts just suddenly fall in love with editing, drawing and whatnot way past their childhood. And as much as we like to see those things as purely subjective there absolutely are concepts and rules that you can learn and use/subvert to your advantage to convey whatever you want, and while they're still dependent to some extent on physical skill/experience, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from learning those at any point in your life.

[MFG38]

10 hours ago, doomlayman said:

it's easier to develop skill in mathematics than in graphics design, that's at least, from my life experience. In my opinion, being graphics "gifted" is much more something one borns with then develops.

 

In my emphatically subjective opinion, the answer to this statement is, in a nutshell, "yes and no".

 

While I don't believe in talent in a particular subject being something one is just born into, I do agree that different individuals have different predispositions for developing more talent in either artistic or logical subjects as opposed to the other. I've personally always been more of the former type - so much became evident when I made the mistake of picking long-term math in high school and absolutely flunked it. That said, I also believe that just because you're predisposed to learn logic-oriented subjects more easily doesn't mean that you can't learn to do art. Ultimately, it boils down to two things: practice and discipline.

Edited February 6 by MFG38

[Asphalt]

I think this whole concept could become something interesting if there were some particular mods that could be considered useful for the whole community, or would be requested by a good, large part of the community. And with this I don't mean entire total conversions or flat-out new games like the hypothetical Monkey Island Doom that you suggested (those things would be extremely subjective and most certainly suffer tons of copyright problems as it's been already pointed out)... but for example if there were smaller things such as a steampunk-themed weapon set, or medieval monsters like the ones Eriance designed for Hell Forged, or usable assets for Blasphemer, things that could be seen as useful resources for general purpose modding by the entire community, I think it could be interesting to leave that option open.

If some random guys on the internet could afford to donate money, maybe it could work as an incentive for experienced modders to give it a try at something they may have been tinkering about for years, but nobody had the will or the time to do it. It could benefit everyone, so why not?

 

And I totally second the thing that Kinsie wrote about Patreons.

There are some cool projects that would surely get some boost if there were more people able to donate consistently, so if you have that willingness to help, and the liquidity, I suggest you could start from there.