Daylight District | A 7-level vanilla episode!

[fefor]

Finally got around finishing this, absolutely amazing stuff like always, Moonlit District is one of my fave releases so it was a very pleasant surprise to see this remix of the theme. 

 

Here's some uvmax demos for most maps except 3 and 6 since those were too much for me to handle in a single segment, but still had a lot of fun playing them, I've also played almost all of them on HMP and the changes introduced in them were very much appreciated, specially map 05, so I'd encourage anyone that gets frustrated on UV to give HMP a try since its still great fun. 

dlds_uvmax_ffr.zip

[Clippy]

Thought I would attempt to start to begin to dive into this one 

 

I screwed up on the first run then got er 

 

 

 

[EduardoAndFriends]

29 minutes ago, Clippy said:

Thought I would attempt to start to begin to dive into this one 

 

I screwed up on the first run then got er 

 

 

 

Yeah boi! You’re gonna have a BLAST. Especially on Hacker. :p

[Clippy]

3 minutes ago, EduardoAndFriends said:

Yeah boi! You’re gonna have a BLAST. Especially on Hacker. :p

 

Well that's not ominous 

[Clippy]

Ended up coming back to map two after all 

 

I can't quite put my finger on it but there's an extreme familiarity or Deja Vu going on here or maybe it's just how cohesive you guys are in your unified mapping but yeah this felt oddly familiar especially the final conflict with the Cyber almost like I experienced something similar in a previous squonker endeavor 

 

Anywho I did end up having a fun time you guys know how to make challenging engaging fights and after some other comments I'm now worried about your other map but that's down the road stay tuned haha

 

 

Edited March 27 by Clippy

[EduardoAndFriends]

8 hours ago, Clippy said:

Ended up coming back to map two after all 

 

I can't quite put my finger on it but there's an extreme familiarity or Deja Vu going on here or maybe it's just how cohesive you guys are in your unified mapping but yeah this felt oddly familiar especially the final conflict with the Cyber almost like I experienced something similar in a previous squonker endeavor 

 

Anywho I did end up having a fun time you guys know how to make challenging engaging fights and after some other comments I'm now worried about your other map but that's down the road stay tuned haha

 

 

The last fight reminded me of something from Pagodia, but that’s neither here nor there. It squonked me good!

[ElPadrecitoCholo]

@ZeMystic Great set of Maps!

 

 

 

 

[KevvyLava]

Spoke too soon on this wad.  Great level design the first few levels, but just more of the same "pick up a key/weapon, fight 6 revenants and 2 arch-viles" generic stuff.  Am I the only one that is tired of playing maps like this....however well designed they are?

[EduardoAndFriends]

3 hours ago, KevvyLava said:

Spoke too soon on this wad.  Great level design the first few levels, but just more of the same "pick up a key/weapon, fight 6 revenants and 2 arch-viles" generic stuff.  Am I the only one that is tired of playing maps like this....however well designed they are?

Um, excuse me but map06 has EIGHT archviles, thank you very much. 💅 that’s a bit more than the norm, in my book. ;)

[Clippy]

spoiler alert 

[EduardoAndFriends]

2 hours ago, Clippy said:

spoiler alert 

Oh sheeeeeeet sorry ‘bout that, cuz. 😳 it was a spelling mistake anyway I meant to say eight cybers. I’m such a klutz eh

[LVENdead]

7 hours ago, KevvyLava said:

Spoke too soon on this wad.  Great level design the first few levels, but just more of the same "pick up a key/weapon, fight 6 revenants and 2 arch-viles" generic stuff.  Am I the only one that is tired of playing maps like this....however well designed they are?

 

What type of map are you trying to play then?

[Death Bear]

8 hours ago, KevvyLava said:

Spoke too soon on this wad.  Great level design the first few levels, but just more of the same "pick up a key/weapon, fight 6 revenants and 2 arch-viles" generic stuff.  Am I the only one that is tired of playing maps like this....however well designed they are?

Eagerly awaiting your mapset release. Show us what you got.

THAT SAID: I'm enjoying this so far.

Edited March 29 by Death Bear

[Clippy]

I'm tired of playing Maps where you pick up keys, shoot things and do things but somehow I'm going to persevere stay tuned 

 

Maybe u should switch to scrabble

Edited March 29 by Clippy

[Bobby :D]

10 hours ago, KevvyLava said:

Spoke too soon on this wad.  Great level design the first few levels, but just more of the same "pick up a key/weapon, fight 6 revenants and 2 arch-viles" generic stuff.  Am I the only one that is tired of playing maps like this....however well designed they are?

I'll remember to put 10x more enemies next time, sorry for taking it easy!

[ReaperAA]

11 hours ago, KevvyLava said:

Spoke too soon on this wad.  Great level design the first few levels, but just more of the same "pick up a key/weapon, fight 6 revenants and 2 arch-viles" generic stuff.  Am I the only one that is tired of playing maps like this....however well designed they are?

 

If you are playing on UV and finding it too hard, I would recommend to lower the difficulty.

[KevvyLava]

5 hours ago, LVENdead said:

 

What type of map are you trying to play then?

Honestly I'm not super picky.  I just like playing regular Doom levels.  Or a megawad with a variety of challenges.  Just seems like every map these days just involves traps with revenants, arch-viles, and chaingunners.  Then you go to another room and it's the same thing.

[KevvyLava]

52 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

 

If you are playing on UV and finding it too hard, I would recommend to lower the difficulty.

 

I don't understand what your comment has to do with my comment.

[Noiser]

12 hours ago, KevvyLava said:

Great level design the first few levels, but just more of the same "pick up a key/weapon, fight 6 revenants and 2 arch-viles" generic stuff.  Am I the only one that is tired of playing maps like this

You mean, like... Doom? No. I'm here because I like the game =P

[Obsidian]

3 hours ago, KevvyLava said:

 

I don't understand what your comment has to do with my comment.

 

Lower difficulty = less monsters?

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Mr. Alexander]

Quote

Just seems like every map these days just involves traps with revenants, arch-viles, and chaingunners.  Then you go to another room and it's the same thing. 

I'd be a lot more sympathetic to this guy's habitual complaints - it's not just this thread - about the overuse of revenant/arch-vile/chaingunner traps if I thought this was a good representation of Daylight District Maps 4-7. These maps all feel pretty distinct from one another to me, with the last one being an outright Junkfood-style slaughter map. If there's a trend across recent wads here, I wouldn't mind reading a thread citing examples and making suggestions for improvements, but on the other hand, one reason good negative criticism of Doom levels takes a while to put together is that it sucks to play stuff you don't like, and you have to be mindful that you're talking about the unpaid hobby work of other posters on the same forum, so you either have to say nothing, or you have to be considered and measured in a way that you are rarely encouraged to be on the Internet. Plus it just takes a long time to take screenshots, analyze fights, show commonalities and distinctions, etc.

 

"Turn the difficulty down" doesn't respond to the critique in "Too many of the traps are the same, in this wad and in others I've been playing." "They're actually fairly different from each other, and you've just had some bad luck in the wads you've been playing; or else Doomworld is just full of sickos who live for revenants, arch-viles, and chaingunners. What have you been playing lately?" is closer to a response. But the comment would have been more worth responding to if it hadn't been just a one-liner inviting one-liners in turn.

 

Looking forward to the idgames release!

[KevvyLava]

47 minutes ago, Mr. Alexander said:

I'd be a lot more sympathetic to this guy's habitual complaints - it's not just this thread - about the overuse of revenant/arch-vile/chaingunner traps if I thought this was a good representation of Daylight District Maps 4-7. These maps all feel pretty distinct from one another to me, with the last one being an outright Junkfood-style slaughter map. If there's a trend across recent wads here, I wouldn't mind reading a thread citing examples and making suggestions for improvements, but on the other hand, one reason good negative criticism of Doom levels takes a while to put together is that it sucks to play stuff you don't like, and you have to be mindful that you're talking about the unpaid hobby work of other posters on the same forum, so you either have to say nothing, or you have to be considered and measured in a way that you are rarely encouraged to be on the Internet. Plus it just takes a long time to take screenshots, analyze fights, show commonalities and distinctions, etc.

 

"Turn the difficulty down" doesn't respond to the critique in "Too many of the traps are the same, in this wad and in others I've been playing." "They're actually fairly different from each other, and you've just had some bad luck in the wads you've been playing; or else Doomworld is just full of sickos who live for revenants, arch-viles, and chaingunners. What have you been playing lately?" is closer to a response. But the comment would have been more worth responding to if it hadn't been just a one-liner inviting one-liners in turn.

  

Looking forward to the idgames release!

 

Now we're getting to the meat of things!  So, to elaborate more, I did comment on another thread where the wads basically offered the same thing.  And it was the same as in this wad, where I played the first few levels and the design felt fresh and the textures were cool/interesting.  But then I felt that it was just more of the same.  There are a LOT of wads I've played over the past few years that do the same thing: grab a key (or good weapon) and you are immediately thrust into a (usually) undersized arena in which you are expected you frantically navigate / dodge the tracers from arch-viles while running in circles dodging revenant rockets.  Further, often times you are expected to also identify the locations of chaingunners (often on a pedestal or in the distance) to survive, while randomly grabbing any health you can find.

 

The above description is a VERY hectic experience, and can be very much welcomed in the context of a map.  Naturally, as people have improved their Doomin' skills over the decades, tougher challenges are wanted by many.  Long gone is the simplicity of MAP11 (Circle of Death / 'O' of Destruction) where the arch-vile appears in the blue key room (weak enemies for him to revive, easy to run away / dodge / avoid).  Now we have maps that turn from the classic Doom experience (where a map has a beginning, middle, end) to what almost feels section after section of some sort of "onslaught."  Remember MAP16, where the onslaught after you grab the key was one of the most memorable moments in the entire game?  All this despite that map looking nothing at all like any "Suburbs" I've ever been to in my life.

 

So sure, as you said, I could turn down the difficulty and have an easier time defeating the demons.  But have I actually gotten anything other than what ....kind of feels like I'm "deathmatching against monsters" running around a clean, well-designed map where every texture is perfectly aligned.  Sometimes the maps rely on switches to open other doors, only to find another Quake III Arena-style deathmatch level with a key you grab, which releases (you guessed it) 2 arch-viles, 8 revenants, and chaingunners.

 

Throughout my Doomin' Journey over the decades, I've grown to love the challenge of weaving in and out of random pillars dodging arch-vile tracers without getting hit, or running in circles to guide revenant rockets into other monsters / walls / whatever.  But if that's all the map is, what's the point?  Where's the exploration?  I was playing Doom Refired today and there are definitely traps.  But there's also a variance in a lot of things, and there are quiet moments, and there is more of an artistic touch to the level design (wandering dark caves lit by candlebras, a mix of texture themes, etc.)

 

Personally I'm better at editing maps than designing them.  I offered compliments on the design of these maps, they are very aesthetically pleasing.  And not all of them have to be exactly what I want in a map to be a "good map."  But I was legitimately disappointed to see a fresh map set that looked great, and ultimately went down the same territory we've seen so many times.

 

I'll leave it at that, because I have already sort of accidentally hijacked the thread, it seems.  Everyone else seemed to really enjoy the maps, and the author should be able to enjoy people enjoying his creation rather than it totally switching to what I (the guy with the generic avatar) thinks.

[taviow]

I think there's clearly a deeper discussion to be had on this topic but why are you hijacking threads just to spout negative one liners? Which are incidentally starting to feel very repetitive themselves.

 

I hope this thread can get back on track from here... though I'm not holding my breath, it feels like it's been derailed and this project did not deserve that...

[KevvyLava]

1 hour ago, taviow said:

I think there's clearly a deeper discussion to be had on this topic but why are you hijacking threads just to spout negative one liners? Which are incidentally starting to feel very repetitive themselves.

 

I hope this thread can get back on track from here... though I'm not holding my breath, it feels like it's been derailed and this project did not deserve that...

 

Gave my honest opinion on the wad.  Not every comment has to be glowing.  My comment offered a compliment and a critique.

[taviow]

I think criticism is welcome when relevant, which respectfully I do not think yours achieved that goal, at least not at first. Upon further elaboration, then your opinion became more well thought out, I think that's where it could have started out.

 

Anyway, since I played this right after Moonlight District, the thing that struck me right away was that the difficulty ascent felt very smooth to me as a continuation of that. Plus, dealing with those nasty traps in the later maps is very fun to learn and execute. That's my thing right there :)

 

I think revenants and archviles in particular are some of the easiest enemies to place in order to build a really good fight, because for a lot of players whenever they are found they tend to be fun to fight since they promote a lot of movement and skill from the player. Placing a single archvile can turn a fight from something trivial into a compelling exercise that requires effort to navigate. So I think that's where we see these guys being used as key pieces in many encounters. Although I think it's fun to try to build compelling scenarios with other monsters as well (and that's the main challenge that UD wads often face).

Edited March 30 by taviow

[KevvyLava]

21 minutes ago, taviow said:

I think criticism is welcome when relevant, which respectfully I do not think yours achieved that goal, at least not at first. Upon further elaboration, then your opinion became more well thought out, I think that's where it could have started out.

 

Anyway, since I played this right after Moonlight District, the thing that struck me right away was that the difficulty ascent felt very smooth to me as a continuation of that. Plus, dealing with those nasty traps in the later maps is very fun to learn and execute. That's my thing right there :)

 

I think revenants and archviles in particular are some of the easiest enemies to place in order to build a really good fight, because for a lot of players whenever they are found they tend to be fun to fight since they promote a lot of movement and skill from the player. Placing a single archvile can turn a fight from something trivial into a compelling exercise that requires effort to navigate. So I think that's where we see these guys being used as key pieces in many encounters. Although I think it's fun to try to build compelling scenarios with other monsters as well (and that's the main challenge that UD wads often face).

 

It doesn't matter if you think my criticism was relevant, or that it "didn't achieve my goal."  My goal was to complain about the map, which I did.  The author can decide if it that matters.  My overall point, which I posted plainly, is that it's the same bit over and over.  Someone could take the same maps and change the monsters to a different configuration, and it might very well be more interesting to me.  I don't have (nobody has) an obligation to give "the long version" right from the get-go.  But as you see, I had zero issue articulating my perspective when pressed (and when I felt like elaborating).  I'm sure the author is proud of what he created, and that so many people like it.  I doubt my opinion is causing any lost sleep.  Doom may be one of the greatest games of all time, and this may be the best Doom community out there, and I may be just some guy in Chicago, but let's not make more of an issue about this than it is: a fun retro hobby.

[Ludi]

whole lotta yapping from this guy

[Bobby :D]

20 hours ago, KevvyLava said:

 

Now we're getting to the meat of things!  So, to elaborate more, I did comment on another thread where the wads basically offered the same thing.  And it was the same as in this wad, where I played the first few levels and the design felt fresh and the textures were cool/interesting.  But then I felt that it was just more of the same.  There are a LOT of wads I've played over the past few years that do the same thing: grab a key (or good weapon) and you are immediately thrust into a (usually) undersized arena in which you are expected you frantically navigate / dodge the tracers from arch-viles while running in circles dodging revenant rockets.  Further, often times you are expected to also identify the locations of chaingunners (often on a pedestal or in the distance) to survive, while randomly grabbing any health you can find.

 

The above description is a VERY hectic experience, and can be very much welcomed in the context of a map.  Naturally, as people have improved their Doomin' skills over the decades, tougher challenges are wanted by many.  Long gone is the simplicity of MAP11 (Circle of Death / 'O' of Destruction) where the arch-vile appears in the blue key room (weak enemies for him to revive, easy to run away / dodge / avoid).  Now we have maps that turn from the classic Doom experience (where a map has a beginning, middle, end) to what almost feels section after section of some sort of "onslaught."  Remember MAP16, where the onslaught after you grab the key was one of the most memorable moments in the entire game?  All this despite that map looking nothing at all like any "Suburbs" I've ever been to in my life.

 

So sure, as you said, I could turn down the difficulty and have an easier time defeating the demons.  But have I actually gotten anything other than what ....kind of feels like I'm "deathmatching against monsters" running around a clean, well-designed map where every texture is perfectly aligned.  Sometimes the maps rely on switches to open other doors, only to find another Quake III Arena-style deathmatch level with a key you grab, which releases (you guessed it) 2 arch-viles, 8 revenants, and chaingunners. 

  

Throughout my Doomin' Journey over the decades, I've grown to love the challenge of weaving in and out of random pillars dodging arch-vile tracers without getting hit, or running in circles to guide revenant rockets into other monsters / walls / whatever.  But if that's all the map is, what's the point?  Where's the exploration?  I was playing Doom Refired today and there are definitely traps.  But there's also a variance in a lot of things, and there are quiet moments, and there is more of an artistic touch to the level design (wandering dark caves lit by candlebras, a mix of texture themes, etc.) 

 

Personally I'm better at editing maps than designing them.  I offered compliments on the design of these maps, they are very aesthetically pleasing.  And not all of them have to be exactly what I want in a map to be a "good map."  But I was legitimately disappointed to see a fresh map set that looked great, and ultimately went down the same territory we've seen so many times.

 

I'll leave it at that, because I have already sort of accidentally hijacked the thread, it seems.  Everyone else seemed to really enjoy the maps, and the author should be able to enjoy people enjoying his creation rather than it totally switching to what I (the guy with the generic avatar) thinks.

First note, funny thing, I did some playtesting and a little project management for Doom Refired a few years ago! I'm happy that team has gotten on good footing!

Second off, I think that while Squonker does do a more "modern" style of design namely influenced by Alm and his progenitors, I think there's more than enough in the department of wads that deliver low-key, out of the norm, and esoteric experiences. That's not to say we don't ever do something out of the ordinary; for example, Tetanus has a good amount of maps that explore a sense of constraint and subtlety contrasting with the immense and explosive maps, like AD's Map 5 or Skronk's Map 9 (both of which are some of the longest maps in the set).

Thirdly, the whole "artistic" merit thing is completely relative and has no place in a conversation about aesthetic complaints, you only get as much as you put in when it comes to appreciation. If you appreciate the low key stuff through caverns, that's cool! If you don't go for straight up gameplay wads, that's cool too! Just don't get in a twist about the "worth" of either of these (unless you want to go Kantian on my ass and start using pure reasoning for why a Doom WAD has the value of Walmart paintings of christmas cabins).

As a middle ground statement, Daylit District is itself a sequel to a gameplay heavy, minimalist detail wad. If we did something like a sequel to Vigor or Pagodia we'd definitely place a huge emphasis on aesthetic exploration!

[DreadWanderer]

4 minutes ago, Bobby :D said:

First note, funny thing, I did some playtesting and a little project management for Doom Refired a few years ago! I'm happy that team has gotten on good footing!

Second off, I think that while Squonker does do a more "modern" style of design namely influenced by Alm and his progenitors, I think there's more than enough in the department of wads that deliver low-key, out of the norm, and esoteric experiences. That's not to say we don't ever do something out of the ordinary; for example, Tetanus has a good amount of maps that explore a sense of constraint and subtlety contrasting with the immense and explosive maps, like AD's Map 5 or Skronk's Map 9 (both of which are some of the longest maps in the set).

Thirdly, the whole "artistic" merit thing is completely relative and has no place in a conversation about aesthetic complaints, you only get as much as you put in when it comes to appreciation. If you appreciate the low key stuff through caverns, that's cool! If you don't go for straight up gameplay wads, that's cool too! Just don't get in a twist about the "worth" of either of these (unless you want to go Kantian on my ass and start using pure reasoning for why a Doom WAD has the value of Walmart paintings of christmas cabins).

As a middle ground statement, Daylit District is itself a sequel to a gameplay heavy, minimalist detail wad. If we did something like a sequel to Vigor or Pagodia we'd definitely place a huge emphasis on aesthetic exploration!

 

...can we get a sequel to Vigor or Pagodia? 

 

Please?! 😄

[Bobby :D]

1 minute ago, DreadWanderer said:

 

...can we get a sequel to Vigor or Pagodia? 

 

Please?! 😄

We can't even release the projects we have been working on for a while now, a sequel to either of those is so far down the pipeline it might come up the other end. Maybe in a few years we'll do some sort of spiritual successor or something, but we want to do some of the original wad concepts we've been working on and off for many years first, so sit tight :D