Five Questions About Hell (Lore-Related)

[SentinelAfghanistan]

Yo. Long time Doom player here, probably since I was 5, and through the years my brain has never decided to question such a strange phenomemomoneom of the Doom series. More specifically, the Classic Dooms. What the HELL!! is with HELL??? In all seriousness, what exactly is Hell's deal? Even through both manuals of the first and second game, I can't find chicken-scratch to do with it! Yeah sure John Carmack said "Porn in game, game porn, story porn. Me porn." but su casa me casa John! I care a lot about what I'M doing! So, what then? Well, ask other Doomers. Not the gloomy ones, but the ones that shoot straight and never miss a demon! Okay enough talking like an idiot, let's get to the five questions I want some basic answers for... or theories... or actual answers... Also, nothing to do with the later games, so no Doom 3, Doom 2016, or Eternal (not ETERNALL.wad.) We're just gonna work off of what we have in the first two (four? five? six?) games (or I should say wads considered canon.) (Also no Doom RPG, though if you think it belongs to an answer, go ahead.) Also, one more thing. I have NOT read the Doom novels, however, if there are answers to some of the absolute burning (get it, hell :3 ) questions I have, then please substitute an answer for the question as: "Answered in the novels." 

 

Question Numero Uno: Are Cyberdemons and Spider Masterminds warlords? Is Hell basically ancient China? 

Context: Within a few of the stories (and text screens) Cyberdemons and Spider Masterminds are sometimes called warlords. Example; In 'No Rest For The Living,' 'The Shores of Hell,' 'Inferno,' and 'Thy Flesh Consumed,' both Cyberdemons and Spider Masterminds are given the description that a warlord would basically have. These guys are in charge of their own legions and armies of Hellspawn, and potentially even own structures. Like the Tower of Babel in 'The Shores of Hell,' or the Earth Base which has been taken by a Cyberdemon in 'No Rest For The Living.' So what's going on here? (And yes I know No Rest came out in 2010, but I still consider it canon.) Are these guys warlords? Do they control regions? In Doom 2, is the reason they appear more often, because they want to control more land? They want to conquest regions of Earth? Do they attack each other sometimes? I mean, Hellspawn is known for infighting, so I wouldn't be surprised if this is a common occurrence. I'm genuinely curious, and I guess I'm also genuinely curious about the rest of these questions. 

 

Question Two: Is the Icon of Sin, one of many?

Context: You kill him at the end of Doom 2, but he appears again in TNT and Plutonia, described in Plutonia's words as "The Gatekeeper." So what the HELL is he? Is there more than one Icon of Sin? If there is, who are they? They can create demons it seems, but what else can they do? Are they in control of certain parts of Hell? Do they just open portals? Why is he stuck to a wall? Is he just being constructed? Is John Romero's head on a pike as the final boss canon? Or is that just a joke?

 

Question Three: Lucifer? Where is the guy... Is he the Icon of Sin? Is it a Christian Hell? Are we giving names to the location ourselves?

Context: Yes, yes, I knoooow. There are enough crosses here that even Jesus Christ would shiver, but, at the same time, the way Hell is described and shown in this game, it's kind of like... well, an alien environment. In it's own right that is. Yes, I know, there's a LOT of human corpses, giving the impression that Hell definitely holds scum of the............ Earth? Planets? It holds humanity, there, we'll say that. But seriously... what is this place? Oh yeah the first question, where is Lucifer in this case? There's no way in HELL (hehe) he's the Icon of Sin. That would be waaaayyy too easy, even for modern Doom standards (yes I know I said I wasn't gonna bring this up.) So... where is the guy? Is he like... president of Hell? Maybe not president, dictator? I haven't finished the bible yet, and this conversation might get too existential, so I'll leave at this row of minor questions... well, minor to others maybe. Is Lucifer real in this universe? Is he like, the leader of Hell? Are the Icon of Sins regional managers? Do the Icons control the Cyberdemons and Spider Masterminds, or are they like a parliament? Do they resolve problems in Hell? What the Hell is a Hell Noble? Do other religious Hells exist? Does Heaven exist? Where do the dead go? Am I killing the same people over and over again? Is there like a double Hell? Ignoring the circles that is, unless in this universe when you die in Hell you go to another circle. Actually, I think we have a slight answer to this... Remember 'Knee Deep in the Dead'? You die at the end of that chapter, and get sent to Deimos... Which is floating in Hell. But... Do you really die? I mean the text doesn't really describe your death, it just kind of happens ingame. "It's not supposed to end this way!" Could be used for your upcoming death, so, I'm kind of confused. Maybe some clarification from the comments could help.

 

Question Four: Is Hell the Interdimensional plain in this universe? Like Xen from Half-Life?

Context: Although in Doom 1's manual it's kind of explained, I also would like a confirmation on this. Hell being an interdimensional plain which you accidentally teleport to sounds a lot like Xen. Millions and millions of miles of just random Hellstuff, it actually sounds pretty cool. But, is that the case?

 

Question Five: Why can't we be friends, Hell? Why are you fighting?

Context: This kind of has to do with question one, though this might trudge into other bounds, like 'forces beyond my comprehension' type stuff. Yes, I know they are the incarnations of evil... But even evil sometimes has a reason. So... why? Are they enraged? Do they just want to corrupt more things? More land? More... demons? I know that when they're around non-corrupted things, it slowly warps INTO corrupted things, so I guess there's an answer there. They just want more stuff. But... What do you guys think?

 

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to read all of this. I did type a little jokey, but I do intend this to be serious, even if the questions are a bit ridiculous. I hope I don't get ridiculed for this. Again, thank you. 

Edited February 21, 2024 by SentinelAfghanistan

[Gez]

In order:

 

0. The novels say that demons are really just aliens who cosplay as demons as a psy-op. It's dumb. And the whole thing "demons are actually aliens" thing was done much better with the Kreegans from the Might & Magic series anyway.

 

1. Basically, yes. Some demons can push other demons around. It's vaguely implied that Spiderdemons do it with psychic powers or something (remember that Doom was partially inspired by a D&D campaign, so think of the Elder Brain from BG3), and Cyberdemons with sheer strength. There's also the barons and knights of Hell, so there's some implied social hierarchy going on, too.

 

2. John Romero's head is just a joke. It's unclear what role exactly the Icon of Sin plays in demon society, if such a thing exists. It might be in charge, it might be imprisoned. Either way it's stuck in a wall and with a lot of machinery plugged in, presumably to monitor it but perhaps also to control it, or inversely to relay its control. Who knows, who cares, you destroy it anyway. Only thing sure it that it can just think new demons into existence.

 

3. It's not specifically Christian Hell, no. Like it's not Muslim Hell or Shinto Hell or whatever other real world religion's vision of Hell. It's just Hell. As for Doomguy, yes the teleportation to Deimos is rather ambiguous as what happened to him. Maybe he died. Certainly would help make sense of the Doom 64 ending where he decides to stay in Hell forever to make sure demons don't threaten Earth again, which raises questions about, you know, eating, drinking, aging, and so on in literal Hell. But anyways he did not succumb to Hell and did not become a zombie.

 

4. It is said that Hell is a separate dimension. After all, Deimos vanished when it was sent there. And yes, Half-Life's plot is very similar to Doom's, except with aliens instead of demons. But Hell being a separate dimension is absolutely not a novel idea, after all (once again) this was loosely inspired by a D&D campaign and in D&D, Hell is a separate dimension. In fact, Hell (as a generic term for "place of metaphysical evil made manifest") is more like seven separate dimensions (Acheron, Nine Hells, Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus, Abyss, and Pandemonium), which each can have several separate sub-dimensions (or "layers"), like the Nine Hells have, surprisingly, nine layers.

 

5. Basically it's just evil because it's its nature. Does it want to corrupt more stuff? I dunno, does fire want to burn stuff? It just does. Note that in classic Doom at least, it's because we intruded into Hell with teleportation experiment that we allowed it to spill into our dimension. In Doom 3 and later they had to bring in some pre-invasion corruption (contacting and corrupting people like Betruger or Pierce) so Hell was actively attempting conquest; but in Classic Doom at least, it's just "we opened a pathway and now things are pouring out of it, oops".

 

 

To conclude, Classic Doom was never really going for in-depth explanation about why such or such things happened. And I think that actually makes the story better. I do prefer Doom's Hell as a sort of impersonal thing -- a corrupting presence, a malevolent one certainly, but not one with what we would understand as a mind. I find this more interesting than "Hell is other people" (not in the meaning Sartres intended!) where you can have a demon called Joe Glabrezu who's just a plumber trying to make end meets so he can pay piano lessons to his daughter, you know?

Edited February 21, 2024 by Gez

[Fonze]

Fun topic, I'll 🤓

 

First you mention:

12 hours ago, SentinelAfghanistan said:

(or I should say wads considered canon.)

Either all wads or no pwads are canon. If our dark lord and savior Romero is to be believed, all wads are canon. Thus all answers can be correct. That said, I tend to base my headcanon on the iwads and treat pwads as fair interpretation, also canonical events.

 

12 hours ago, SentinelAfghanistan said:

Are these guys warlords?Are Cyberdemons and Spider Masterminds warlords? Is Hell basically ancient China? 

Are generals warlords? If you're asking merely if they (smm and siegecow) are in leadership positions, then yes, I believe doom 1 explicitly states that. But I guess hell is as much ancient China as it is modern US (or insert your preferred country here, they all fit). Even companies have leadership that controls land. Hell is a society of some sort and has a hierarchical structure, but idk that comparisons to real world nations/groups is without its issues.

 

12 hours ago, SentinelAfghanistan said:

Is the Icon of Sin, one of many?

I would say yes, the one we kill in doom 2 is in a different location to the one in plu and the one in tnt, and icons cant move. Another good question would be if it is more of an object than a creature if we consider parallels to narrow ai 🤔🤓 although I suppose the differentiating criteria of "it doesn't move" is fairly flimsy and that would also open the question to the rest of the roster, and perhaps doomguy himself. Maybe the icon is just a vessel for the overarching leader of hell to act through from afar, like how sauron leads his armies in lotr.

 

12 hours ago, SentinelAfghanistan said:

Lucifer? Where is the guy... Is he the Icon of Sin? Is it a Christian Hell? Are we giving names to the location ourselves?

This is a big question on its own and your paragraph asks a thousand more. It's a hard group to answer... I suppose in the first place, it's arguable if a hell leader even exists. Maybe some lucifer-esk entity exists somewhere and acts as sauron, from afar, but the concept/setting of hell itself is also presented as much of a character as doomguy. The messages at the end of the episodes don't read "the moodemon/smm/lucifer/icon/healer/etc" didn't play fair, it says "hell didn't play fair." Hell in this sense is perhaps more a force of nature than an entity, or maybe some cosmic cthulu mythos being shaping its dimension to its whim, but probably just a force of nature. Perhaps the very nature of the dimension itself, naturally bleeding over where it finds gaps to fit through. Who knows lol.

 

I do think doomguy died at the end of e1m8, which would point towards the new dimension being actually hell, though I don't consider it to be a christian hell. More like a general hell.

 

12 hours ago, SentinelAfghanistan said:

Is Hell the Interdimensional plain in this universe? Like Xen from Half-Life?

Doom describes the demons as interdimensional, but that doesn't mean they come from the only other dimension around. There could be other dimensions, it just so happened that teleporting technology uncovered this one, which also coincidentally seems to be where souls of bad humans go, at least if we take the in-game lore at face value. It could be argued that humans in-lore just mistakenly interpreted the new dimension as hell, being the closest comparison they knew, or maybe the entity/nature behind hell just shapes itself to its victims' fears.

 

12 hours ago, SentinelAfghanistan said:

Why can't we be friends, Hell? Why are you fighting?

Presumably to amass more soldiers and a larger area of influence. The age old "number go up" motivation 😋 Or maybe they just want into our dimension so bad that they've been waiting for such an opportunity. Alternatively, maybe it's just the nature of the dimension to corrupt and expand. Maybe the fighting is not because of hell doing its natural thing, but because of our desire to fight change, in this case to not become hellspawn. Maybe being a hellspawn wouldn't be so bad 😋

Edited February 21, 2024 by Fonze

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

15 hours ago, SentinelAfghanistan said:

Question Numero Uno: Are Cyberdemons and Spider Masterminds warlords? Is Hell basically ancient China?

You could say that. They work together in a kind of brain-meets-brawn setup. Cyberdemons provide intimidation and firepower while the Spider Mastermind uploads population surveillance to the CCP in order to protect the ancient Chinese seekarit.

 

15 hours ago, SentinelAfghanistan said:

Question Two: Is the Icon of Sin, one of many?

It was cloned after the events of DOOM 2. In DOOM Eternal: The Ancient Gods Part II, we learn that Doomguy actually failed to save the planet because he thought that deleting the icon would also delete the program. It was 1994 and he did not understand computers very well.

 

15 hours ago, SentinelAfghanistan said:

Question Four: Is Hell the Interdimensional plain in this universe?

It can be, if you're high enough.

 

15 hours ago, SentinelAfghanistan said:

Question Five: Why can't we be friends, Hell? Why are you fighting?

Doomguy and Hell have always fought over pointless things. It's a symbiotic relationship between an angry roid-raging space marine and the demons who provoke him into fighting in order to train their own soldiers by analyzing his combat performance before uploading it to the CCP.

[DiceByte]

I think Doom Eternal answers many of your questions in the Ancient Gods, mostly in part 2. But I don’t really know for sure, as they either didn’t explain it well, I didn’t listen well, or both. I am guessing option number 3. Then again, they didn’t have enough time to fully flesh it out. After this, Doom would be temporarily concluded for a very long time. So they really needed to come up with something, and they needed to do it quick. So I guess the devs were like “Oh shit we need to answer all these guestions, uh, uh,” *bangs keyboard with face* “oh never mind it’s alright!”

[DoomPlayer00]

On 2/21/2024 at 6:42 AM, SentinelAfghanistan said:

Question Numero Uno: Are Cyberdemons and Spider Masterminds warlords? Is Hell basically ancient China? 

Context: Within a few of the stories (and text screens) Cyberdemons and Spider Masterminds are sometimes called warlords. Example; In 'No Rest For The Living,' 'The Shores of Hell,' 'Inferno,' and 'Thy Flesh Consumed,' both Cyberdemons and Spider Masterminds are given the description that a warlord would basically have. These guys are in charge of their own legions and armies of Hellspawn, and potentially even own structures. Like the Tower of Babel in 'The Shores of Hell,' or the Earth Base which has been taken by a Cyberdemon in 'No Rest For The Living.' So what's going on here? (And yes I know No Rest came out in 2010, but I still consider it canon.) Are these guys warlords? Do they control regions? In Doom 2, is the reason they appear more often, because they want to control more land? They want to conquest regions of Earth? Do they attack each other sometimes? I mean, Hellspawn is known for infighting, so I wouldn't be surprised if this is a common occurrence. I'm genuinely curious, and I guess I'm also genuinely curious about the rest of these questions. 

 

There definitely exists a hierarchy amongst the denizens of Hell. And with how powerful Cyberdemons & Masterminds are, it only makes sense for them to be so high up in said hierarchy. the term "warlords" can be considered just a term to describe how much power they hold in Hell.

As for why more cybies & spider-mamas appeared on Earth than on Phobos / Deimos.. well, Hell sent its stronger forces to Earth as they didn't expect any actual resistance on the moons.

 

On 2/21/2024 at 6:42 AM, SentinelAfghanistan said:

Question Two: Is the Icon of Sin, one of many?

Context: You kill him at the end of Doom 2, but he appears again in TNT and Plutonia, described in Plutonia's words as "The Gatekeeper." So what the HELL is he? Is there more than one Icon of Sin? If there is, who are they? They can create demons it seems, but what else can they do? Are they in control of certain parts of Hell? Do they just open portals? Why is he stuck to a wall? Is he just being constructed? Is John Romero's head on a pike as the final boss canon? Or is that just a joke?

 

Going by what lore the early games give us (and ignoring nu-dooms), I would say that yes, there exists more than one Icon of Sin. My theory is that the Icons are ancient demons. So ancient in fact that they possibly predate our universe. Their age has left them weak and frail to the point where they need modern technology to stay barely alive & pretty much spend their days stationary, leading the armies of Hell remotely.

 

GermanPeter's theory is also pretty good. He mentions how The Icon(s) of Sin are actually dead by the events of the games and their corpses are hopelessly kept "running" by Hell to harness their remaining power.

 

On 2/21/2024 at 6:42 AM, SentinelAfghanistan said:

Question Three: Lucifer? Where is the guy... Is he the Icon of Sin? Is it a Christian Hell? Are we giving names to the location ourselves?

Context: Yes, yes, I knoooow. There are enough crosses here that even Jesus Christ would shiver, but, at the same time, the way Hell is described and shown in this game, it's kind of like... well, an alien environment. In it's own right that is. Yes, I know, there's a LOT of human corpses, giving the impression that Hell definitely holds scum of the............ Earth? Planets? It holds humanity, there, we'll say that. But seriously... what is this place? Oh yeah the first question, where is Lucifer in this case? There's no way in HELL (hehe) he's the Icon of Sin. That would be waaaayyy too easy, even for modern Doom standards (yes I know I said I wasn't gonna bring this up.) So... where is the guy? Is he like... president of Hell? Maybe not president, dictator? I haven't finished the bible yet, and this conversation might get too existential, so I'll leave at this row of minor questions... well, minor to others maybe. Is Lucifer real in this universe? Is he like, the leader of Hell? Are the Icon of Sins regional managers? Do the Icons control the Cyberdemons and Spider Masterminds, or are they like a parliament? Do they resolve problems in Hell? What the Hell is a Hell Noble? Do other religious Hells exist? Does Heaven exist? Where do the dead go? Am I killing the same people over and over again? Is there like a double Hell? Ignoring the circles that is, unless in this universe when you die in Hell you go to another circle. Actually, I think we have a slight answer to this... Remember 'Knee Deep in the Dead'? You die at the end of that chapter, and get sent to Deimos... Which is floating in Hell. But... Do you really die? I mean the text doesn't really describe your death, it just kind of happens ingame. "It's not supposed to end this way!" Could be used for your upcoming death, so, I'm kind of confused. Maybe some clarification from the comments could help.

 

Answering mainly to the Lucifer part of this question:

Since Hell can be considered "infinite" in size (at least by human standards), it could be that the whole invasion-of-Earth thing is such a minor event that Lucifer didn't feel the need to get involved in it at all. Hell, for all we know the guy could be just watching the events of the games unfold, enjoying the bloodshed caused by both his minions as well as Doomguy.

 

On 2/21/2024 at 6:42 AM, SentinelAfghanistan said:

Question Four: Is Hell the Interdimensional plain in this universe? Like Xen from Half-Life?

Context: Although in Doom 1's manual it's kind of explained, I also would like a confirmation on this. Hell being an interdimensional plain which you accidentally teleport to sounds a lot like Xen. Millions and millions of miles of just random Hellstuff, it actually sounds pretty cool. But, is that the case?

 

I don't believe Hell is a traditional dimension that humans just happened to find but indeed a physical manifestation of evil, not just for humans but for all life in our universe (or even multiverse?).

 

That said, Hell being just "another world" (though possibly one that exists partially in a higher dimension and whose atmosphere is toxic to humans, explaining weaker minded people going insane and the mutations) inhabited by a very hostile alien race whose technology is more biology & magic focused would explain lack of Lucifer and such.

 

On 2/21/2024 at 6:42 AM, SentinelAfghanistan said:

Question Five: Why can't we be friends, Hell? Why are you fighting?

Context: This kind of has to do with question one, though this might trudge into other bounds, like 'forces beyond my comprehension' type stuff. Yes, I know they are the incarnations of evil... But even evil sometimes has a reason. So... why? Are they enraged? Do they just want to corrupt more things? More land? More... demons? I know that when they're around non-corrupted things, it slowly warps INTO corrupted things, so I guess there's an answer there. They just want more stuff. But... What do you guys think?

 

Could be because Hell's inhabitants are just straight up evil or because they wanted the resources from our world.

 

Bit of a stretch, but what if Hell was "defending" itself this whole time. When humans discovered the realm and sent the first explorers there, Hell's denizens could've interpreted this as an attempt from us to invade THEIR lands. Their attack was a retaliation that went too far.